Animals Are As With-it as Humans (Animals Are Conscious)

reply to post by jeantherapy

we will never understand what it is like to think as a creature whose sensory experience is guided by smell first - dogs perceive a world that we cannot, it is really that simple.

No, it isn't really that simple. They see colors differently, they smell things better, they hear frequencies that we cannot...but they still live in "our" world, too. Watching a dog dream is clue enough that they have consciousness...do flies dream? Fish? I don't think so, but I'm CERTAIN that dogs dream, and cats as well.

And not all dogs are scent-driven. Some are sight-hounds (greyhounds, for example).

Originally posted by ollncasino

One of my friends used to work in a abattoir. He told me that sheep had no concept of death - they would stand there undisturbed as other sheep were killed around them.

edit on 26-8-2012 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

Well I'm sure the level of consciousness differs from species to species...

I know if you were to replay the same scenario with say a pack of dogs... I'm sure you would guess the whole thing would have a much much different outcome.. Of course if you do attempt this I would be sure to pack some running shoes or some sort of motorized ATV..

reply to post by fulllotusqigong

The same happened in Thailand with Phra Achran Mun, the most famous Buddhist monk there -- he would purposively make his students meditate in the most tiger-ridden areas of the jungle because he said that fear of death was most amenable to achieving meditative samadhi for spiritual powers. But the monk would then use his astral communication to keep the tigers from attacking the humans.

There's a belief that animals are the physical manifestation of archetypal qualities - that what we see below in the existence of the animal - is nothing more than a projection of it's spiritual or conceptual predicate.

In the Kabbalah, the world is broken up into 4 'worlds' - emanation, creation, formation and action. This can be correlated with the traditional 4 kingdoms of nature - man, animal, vegetative and inanimate. The highest kingdom includes the aspects of the lower kingdoms: thus, emanation contains the 3 worlds which extend from it, and so forth. Man, according to this metaphysical system, subsumes within his spiritual being the 3 kingdoms of nature - animal, vegetative and inanimate. I take it you're acquainted with this theory?

According to this outlook, the animals of nature are combinations of different archetypal qualities. Unlike man, however, animals lack a rational component, or what the Kabbalah would term the "Neshama", which can be translated as rational soul. They have souls i.e. consciousness of the world - this is demonstrable, but their experience of the world is restricted to the emotive-instinctual sphere.

To return briefly to the above idea, Leon Kass in his "reading Genesis" basing himself on a paper by Leo Strauss, argues that the first pages of Genesis recounts a metaphysical or ontological evolution of the universe. It's quite interesting. Anyways, that same idea can be transplanted to the 4 kingdoms: the inanimate is limited in movement, and so is 1 dimensional. The plant or vegetative sphere can move upwards towards the light, which adds another level of dimensionality to its 'experience'; the animal is able to move along the surface of the earth, which is another dimensionality to experience. We could look at this in descriptive terms as a point, a line, and an area. With mankind, we possess the ability of animals to move around, but unlike animals, we possess the power of abstraction - the ability to abstract from the world and discover meaning: which can then be reinvested in our experience of the world.

As for monks who communicate with animals via astral projection?? I don't know. I wouldn't take that on face value and I would expect such a claim to be based on solid scientific evidence. How do I know it is the tiger hes communicating with, and not some disembodied human soul? Or what about projection - what if what he's communicating with in the animal is a part of himself that is archetypally associated with the animal: and that the animal responds only through this parallelism between the human and animal, not through any innate power of speech-intelligence present in the animal, but through the intermediary of human intelligence which becomes projected onto the animal in question? In other words, since they lack the 'equipment' to communicate in abstract terms, our communication with them is really a communication with ourselves that then becomes transmitted to the emotive soul of the animal.

My point will all this speculation is that there is so much to be looked into when it comes to the subject of astral dynamics.

Can animals develop spiritual powers?

Let me something clear: I believe animals possess the ability to communicate spiritual messages. However, I do not think it is they who decide on such communications. Emotion is an entirely unconscious affair: self consciousness is consciousness. Thus, when an animal intuits that you had a bad day - like my dog sometimes does - I don't take it as her feeling and then responding as if she feels the need to assuage my pain, but rather, she has a feeling put into her - an awareness of a pain in her owner - and she comes without any knowledge of why she's acting. It's almost completely unconscious.

In Hebrew, the word for dog - which I find to be very profound - is Kalev. The 3 letters of this word can be broken into 2 words: Ka (meaning like) Lev (heart) "like the heart". This is a very precise estimation of what the dog is, and it's extremely appropriate that just as man needs to discipline his heart, that dogs - who naturally seek friendship with man - also needs to be similarly disciplined. It's as if the inner need - the disciplining of the heart - beckons the dog towards man.

Noam Chomsky once remarked that if humans didn't have the sense of the I-language based on the I-thought

So then....man should do away with the sense of I?? Are you saying there are spiritual masters who can see x-rays? lol

You were right in noticing my use of Hegelian theories. I believe that man is a combination of mind and body - not like the Hindus who think man is merely mind and that the body is a mere 'illusion'. The gnostics thought something along the same lines, that the physical body was the result of a spiritual fall from an astral or mental state of being.

No, I think we are mind and body. And I think the undifferentiated "I" and the differentiated "I" are two sides of the same coin. They are united in the act of moral living.

reply to post by smyleegrl


I have had dogs all my life and cats, and generally been around animals of all kinds
all my life also. For me there has never been any doubt about animals being self aware.

reply to post by smyleegrl


I think its important to recognize that these animals ARE conscious. The BLOCKER in many humans conscious is that MANY who consume these livestock animals DONT want to consider that it may be wrong because then the ways many eat WILL have to be adjusted accordingly. But when you look @ how much goes into making live stock larger to produce more flesh and genetically modified to sustain their temp. lives in a ever changing world, it kind of seems to be saying its not a good idea hormone filled meats ect?? So I think in the long run MAN has to accept that hey maybe we need to DENY being IGNORANT to these creatures and find alternative ways to consume healthy food products. 1 would think after a while having or GOING BACK to a MAIN veggie diet would only help the health concerns of this HERD of EA*RTH. If there is a need for flesh products then it would be a good idea to genetic modify the livestock genes and make ANIMAL HUSK for those who crave the taste of the past/future ect. The husk would be free of most neuro transmitting parts and would only keep parts needed to upkeep function of husk blood flow or fluid flow to keep flesh fresh for consumers..


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***ON ANOTHER NOTE IF THERE WERE BEINGS WHO FEED OFF OF HUMANS FLESH/FLUIDS ECT. WOULDN'T MANY WANT THEM TO ALSO USE ADVANCED TECHS SO THEY NO LONGER NEEDED TO FEED OFF OF HUMANS??????? Or is this side of the Karma coin ignored?

reply to post by wildtimes

I disagree. Dogs, in particular, take their responsibilities very seriously. And there is definitely a recognition of self. I don't know how many dogs you've shared your life with, but there isn't one doubt in my mind that they have a sense of responsibility -- depending on their breeding (genetic traits), they are born to certain tasks.

I don't think you quite understand what I mean by responsibility: I mean an actual recognition of self. Which is to say, a knowledge of ones essential state of being relative to external needs. A dog can be TRAINED - to perform certain tasks, and so develop a sense of 'responsibility' - but is this an essential knowledge of external needs - and so a proper reflection - or is it a mere mimicry of what is meant by responsibility?

Loyalty, protection, gathering of the 'pack', monitoring the cats' whereabouts (barking at them when they get on the counter), warnings to their humans and the dogs around the area.

The question is, does a dog do these things because she's been trained to do them - because she descends from a breed of dog that excels in these tasks - and so performs these actions with a nonsensical sense of need - an imitation of human responsibility - or do they recognize the importance and thus need of such tasks?

There might be a quasi-presence of self that is so minute that it is really difficult to ascertain whether what were seeing is mere loyalty to man that motivates it i.e to satisfy her emotional need to please her owner - and so perform the complicated assortment of tasks she's been trained or has an instinctual knowledge of - or the presence of of an extremely minute sense of self. I'm still not sold on this. However, if it exists, it is hardly a major determinate in their behavior.

Pride, sorrow, shame, grief, a sense of humor and justice, awareness of disruption, tension, human mood swings...all of those things.

None of these things imply self consciousness. They are emotional responses. What we see as pride - doesn't necessarily imply an estimation of ones self worth: it could be nothing more than the positive reinforcement of the owner which induces an emotional response: shame, when she recognizes that what shes asking for she shouldn't be asking for because she's been "shamed" before. Her response could be nothing more than a mirroring of the human response towards her. And in general, I find that what looks to us as pride - when a dog sits with a majestic gaze - that could be nothing more than an instinctual pose.

As for justice and humor??? Not even. I am willing to recognize those other emotions, but justice - a sense of morality?? You literally think animals have a sense of right and wrong - an actual conscious knowledge that this or that is wrong based on abstract theory?? Keep in mind that emotional responses and abstract reflection upon emotional responses are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

And dogs don't recognize humor. I make jokes all the time that leaves my dog clueless. What she does pick up is happiness: if I'm acting happy, so is she. She picks up the 'waves' of humor that may be occupying my mind and the minds of others, but she doesn't understand humor: humor means a recognition of something that is funny. Dogs do not recognize humor. They recognize the basic emotional energy of a situation - but not the concept which elicits the recognition of humor.

Hey! Wait a miinute here!! That's not fair...isn't there a bigger one in there for me?"

So you think this is a full proof experiment?? Maybe she's used to a certain size of treat that she's usually given? Also, a recognition of 'fairness' - which you surmise is why she responded, could have been nothing more than jealousy: "this dog got more than me. I want the same".. Especially if these two dogs are companions.

I'm sorry you aren't able to appreciate the full sentience and capacity of dogs

There's a difference between fawning before animals and crediting them with abilities on par with man - which is insulting to man - and noticing different degrees of sentience. I have long maintained that dogs behave similar to very young children - 3 or 4 years old;s - and it's extremely amusing. But I'm not about to compare a 3 or 4 year old - who is a mere shadow of what an adult human being is capable of - to a full grown human being.

reply to post by dontreally

There's a difference between fawning before animals and crediting them with abilities on par with man - which is insulting to man - and noticing different degrees of sentience. I have long maintained that dogs behave similar to very young children - 3 or 4 years old;s - and it's extremely amusing. But I'm not about to compare a 3 or 4 year old - who is a mere shadow of what an adult human being is capable of - to a full grown human being.

This paragraph was especially well put!

A star on your post.

reply to post by wildtimes

Watching a dog dream is clue enough that they have consciousness..

I am not sure how you can be certain that a dog is dreaming by watching him.

You can watch a person sleep, yet you can not be certain that they were dreaming until they verify it by communicating it to you through writing or spoken word.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Watching a dog dream is clue enough that they have consciousness..

I am not sure how you can be certain that a dog is dreaming by watching him.

You can watch a person sleep, yet you can not be certain that they were dreaming until they verify it by communicating it to you through writing or spoken word.

You can be reasonably certain that a dream is/was happening by observing for behaviors that indicate a response to stimuli (in this case, it is internally generated stimuli). if you can rule our psychosis, then you are left with dreaming as the only other known explanation.

reply to post by dontreally


Well that may depend on what you consider self recognition..

My dog for example goes crazy when other dogs are around. She'll run after them and jump and play and get all excited because there is another dog...

You put a mirror in front of her she'll just check herself out... Definitely a night and day response...

I don't know if that is actually self recognition but... it appears to me that it is...

I'm sure others have seen similar things..

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Personally I've never understood why humanity thinks they are the only animals on this planet that can be aware of themselves.. The thing that baffles me more is that the very idea is impossible to grasp... but why?

I mean. a dog for instance has a brain.. It's small compared to ours granted, but it is there.. That would mean they could certainly think and understand (otherwise training would be impossible).. They definitely have likes and dislikes and they definitely can prefer one thing over another. They can even have a favorite.. Albeit a toy, a favorite treat (summer sausage in my dog's case), even favorite places.. They can recognize one individual from the next and remember those specific people next time they see them (some of which they cannot contain their excitement). They all have their own individual personality, like to play different games which differs from dog to dog.. (my dog for example loves to play fetch, but will only do so with her duck toy, if you throw anything else she will stand there and look at you like you are an idiot. Every time...)

All of these things are amazing feats of intelligence for a small mammal.

Another example would be Elk.. Those animals have a very complex social structure and are very intelligent.. They communicate through a pretty complex language comprised of grunts, mews and bugles (when you learn to elk call you better know the language). Their herds are comprised of a Big Alpha Bull (usually the one the hunter drools over), a few smaller "Satellite bulls", Cows (female elk) and calves.. They are also extremely elusive and clever when it comes to being hunted especially by humans... I see no reason why an animal such is this that every time displays alarming feats of intelligence could not be aware they exist..

Originally posted by dontreally


There's a difference between fawning before animals and crediting them with abilities on par with man - which is insulting to man - and noticing different degrees of sentience. I have long maintained that dogs behave similar to very young children - 3 or 4 years old;s - and it's extremely amusing. But I'm not about to compare a 3 or 4 year old - who is a mere shadow of what an adult human being is capable of - to a full grown human being.

I am unsure why you think it insulting to man? I have not met many men that were as true and trustworthy as any dog I have ever owned. A far, far more noble creature I believe, on the whole. I think the issue we have here is that you are adding in the words "capable of": What humans are capable of is terrifying to even consider.

If you read the link I provided in my prior post, it addressed dogs and humans in the context of "multiple intelligences", which is the only fair way to really assess the two animals. It is an apples to oranges comparison at best, and can only be done when considering that they are just, in essence, different. But you can come to realize quickly that dogs have capabilities that far, far surpass that of a human.

I wonder why so many have to wait for science to admit to something, or propose a new theory of something that should be obvious in our own hearts from the start.

Even if, like some say, animals are very sophisticated AI, in this holographic, illusionary school, it still would only be the most natural default position, since we are animals too, and a part of this world, to naturally believe all life is conscious, has soul/spirit, and is capable of progressing its consciousness, and that being kind, caring, should be the natural default position of all those with Love and Intelligence and Imagination to put themselves in another's shoes, and thus progress.

I don't know if all of nature and all creatures have souls, perhaps some do and some are a part of the interactive, highly intelligent and responsive system, however, I do believe we should live as though they do, and tread lightly as we can.

However this doesnt mean all are able to be vegetarians. And even those who are, may find in a disaster, they have no choice either.

If we're not able to be vegetarian, then I believe trying to ensure things are less cruel, and as Natives, giving thanks to nature, having respect and compassion for all, is important.

Also, I would like to see the advanced science that I knew since childhood should be in place, and now that we can do it, that they're not is outrageous and criminial to me.

We all worry about genetic manipulation and GMO, well there is negative ways of using technology and positive ways.

And in a positive way, ie would be very nice (without changing the nutritional value of the food, to have coconuts growing on inside vines, in our greenhouses rather than 100 foot tropical trees, so even a farm in alaska can grow them.

And it would be very nice, if (and I know they can do this now) meat was grown in a factory, cloned from the muscle groups, but not connected to a BRAIN AND CONSCIOUSNESS. Just consumable protein growing.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

You can be reasonably certain that a dream is/was happening by observing for behaviors that indicate a response to stimuli (in this case, it is internally generated stimuli). if you can rule our psychosis, then you are left with dreaming as the only other known explanation.

Speaking of dogs dreaming, how can one be certain that a dog is having a dream? Seeing their paws twitch?

Regarding humans, most of the research on sleep and dreaming could not have been possible without the communication between the subject and researcher.

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


We need more than vegetable husks that taste like meat or fish.

And that is the way the NAZI's and Monsanto and the elite want to absolutely destroy our lives and health.

The way our grandparents lived here, eating Bone Marrow soup, liver, having raw whole milk and butters is absolutely essential to TEETH, BONES, and Immune System and in fact some of these fatty soluable vitamins that are found therein are known cancer cures as well.

And the omega fatty fish oil is responsible for brain growth.

And the vegan alternatives are not the same thing, they can afford health for individuals but not long term for species.

And, they do have the science to actually do the right thing now, provide the real food we need, not poisoned and altered forms of it, but real organic food we need including meat, without the brain and wiring and consciousness, so that we could have animals more like Family and Pets who provide eggs and milk and cheese, and these conditions have to improve so its not crowded and inhumane factories but farms with lots of room and range for them.

reply to post by butcherguy


Actually just so you know.. Dogs dreaming is already been proven, even mice dream.. They even go through the 5 stages of sleep.

Dogs like humans will die without sleep, they need it for the same reasons we do as they need dreams for the same reason we do.. That is one thing we do have in common 100%.

They even use dogs as study subjects inducing a chemical REM sleep deprivation to combat human sleep disorders.

Rapid eye movement sleep behaviour disorder (RBD) is a sleep disorder (more specifically a parasomnia) that involves abnormal behaviour during the sleep phase with rapid eye movement (REM sleep). It was first described in 1986.

The major and arguably only abnormal feature of RBD is loss of muscle atonia (paralysis) during otherwise intact REM sleep. This is the stage of sleep in which most vivid dreaming occurs. The loss of motor inhibition leads to a wide spectrum of behavioural release during sleep. This extends from simple limb twitches to more complex integrated movement, in which sufferers appear to be unconsciously acting out their dreams. These behaviours can be violent in nature and in some cases will result in injury to either the patient or their bed partner.

RBD has been diagnosed in non-humans, specifically, dogs

Source

I understand why so many people have inhibitions with this kind of thing.. Humans definitely have a major superiority complex and anything that threatens their superiority is dismissed as outlandish or just plain insulting..

There is nothing threatening about animals being self-aware or conscious of themselves. It doesn't mean you still aren't superior cognitively, it just means you aren't the only animal that knows they are themselves.

Sometimes people even shun these ideas because it makes it easier for them to sleep at night.

reply to post by butcherguy


You can be as certain, i suppose, as you are in anything else that is obvious.

Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by butcherguy

 

Actually just so you know.. Dogs dreaming is already been proven, even mice dream.. They even go through the 5 stages of sleep.

Dogs like humans will die without sleep, they need it for the same reasons we do as they need dreams for the same reason we do.. That is one thing we do have in common 100%.

They even use dogs as study subjects inducing a chemical REM sleep deprivation to combat human sleep disorders.

Now you're just being unreasonable.

edit on 27-8-2012 by DaMod because: (no reason given)

I apologize for being unreasonable, but where would sleep research be (in human or animals) if a human subject was not able to communicate the fact that he/she was dreaming when the research was being done?
So, tell me, what are a dog's dreams like? Sorry, JK, not trying to be unreasonable.

reply to post by butcherguy


Actually that sleep study I got from a documentary on netflix on the science behind dreams (It's still there if you want to watch it lol)

However, you have google and fingers I'm sure you'll manage..



Here's an article I found just now..

Researchers have found that the brain wave activity of dogs during sleep is much like that of humans. They have also found that dogs are physically and emotionally more similar to humans than they are different so it may not be anthropomorphism entirely when we speculate as to what dogs dream about. Of course people can only guess because there has been no proven way to know what is going on in a sleeping dog’s mind; however, dogs have thoughts, reflexes, and memory and all of these probably factor into their dreaming process. Doggy dreams are probably made up of images from everyday life such as chasing birds, playing ball, eating, getting a bath, or watching the humans.

Source

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by butcherguy

 

You can be as certain, i suppose, as you are in anything else that is obvious.

As obvious as a flea bite causing a sleeping dog to twitch his paw?

Could be viewed as a dreaming dog by some, obviously.

reply to post by butcherguy


I'm sorry but brain activity doesn't lie.

Dogs dream dude.

Just out of curiosity... why on God's earth would you think they wouldn't dream?

Also tell me why would a sleeping dog full out run in their sleep were they not dreaming?