All 9 people injured in Friday's shooting near the Empire State Building were wounded by Police

reply to post by GoOfYFoOt


I thought maybe he had one chambered and a full 7 clip in a Colt 1911. Wondering if he would have thought that way though. I figured the average person would just use what the clip held.

Originally posted by sputniksteveUntil you provide some credentials i assume you are IT guys and tellers, i mean this is the internet. I can' t take everyone that tells me they are spec ops for granted or i become the fool. I mean that respectively of course and i expect you will agree with my reservations.

I am a 13 year old actually, I just like call of duty... You got me.

I just thought I'd waste some time trying to explain trigger discipline and other tactical shooting concepts. I want to be an IT guy when I grow up though. Bank teller is too risky for me.

Regardless of my "credentials" there is nothing I said that isn't a fact. Rapid firing 7-9 rounds at a man 10 feet away and missing more than you hit is an indicator of several things - panic and poor marksmanship, poor trigger discipline to name a few.

Again, one need not be an operator (no one calls himself spec-ops ) or an expert in CQB to know that if you don't have control of where you are shooting - don't pull the trigger. That is how you end up with 9 people wounded for 1 perp neutralized.

No one expects the NYPD to all be SWAT experts only that as an LEO they have the presence of mind of know when to pull the trigger and when not to. Not a high expectation really.

I teach that to my hunter’s safety class and they are 10-11. You never ever pull the trigger unless you have a clear sight picture of your target and know what lies beyond it as you are responsible for where the bullet ends up and no one else.

It is to me laughable the way they just start shooting like there isn’t a care in the world other than the one guy does sort of take a second to find some half-assed cover for himself. The other one is totally clueless no care for the citizens or himself. They are (in their current state of training) a danger to the population IMO.

Again no one faults them for shooting the guy. At least not me. Fine take him out, good call. Even firing 7-9 shots at him is not a big deal to me – if you can hit him every time. If you are that good – go for it.

However, know your limitations. I guess these two found their limitations the hard way and 9 people get to wear the bullet wounds as a result.

Nice one NYPD! New York's Finest...

Originally posted by maxella1
reply to post by GoOfYFoOt

 

Not much! But there was more that could have been done, than what they did do.

Yes the perp would run out of bullets or get hit by a bus.

A taxi, more likely...
If you would actually watch the video, perhaps you could answer more of your own questions.

If the suspect wanted to shoot at the cops, he would have!
He had his gun OUT and pointed in their direction, BEFORE they even reacted to it, and drew their own guns!
It appears that he wanted to commit suicide-by-cop, or was assuming that he would be tased or otherwise subdued without the need for further harm of his own doing. Or, perhaps HE was concerned with injuring bystanders and refrained from firing at the police, unlike what they did.
Or, the cops weren't the subject of his disdain, and he didn't want to hurt them?
Bottom line: He obviously planned to kill or severely injure his former co-worker. So he must have planned either his escape or at the least his intended actions after he accomplished that goal.

For all we know, he was on his way to police headquarters to turn himself in!

Anything that happens in Manhattan should raise red flags.

Notice how they shifted the attention of delusional mass shooters to now police being the mass shooters.

The NYPD almost killed 9 people. Thats James Holmes type of stuff.

Dont believe everything you see.

Blocking off streets and inputing certain characters isnt that hard. Faking a scene can be done.

reply to post by Golf66

I teach that to my hunter’s safety class and they are 10-11. You never ever pull the trigger unless you have a clear sight picture of your target and know what lies beyond it as you are responsible for where the bullet ends up and no one else.

Man you are something else. Do you teach your hunters to protect themselves from an aminal pulling a gun to kill them?

If these New Yorks Finest did what you're teaching your hunters no telling how many would be shot by the nutjob.

Originally posted by nine11
Anything that happens in Manhattan should raise red flags.

Notice how they shifted the attention of delusional mass shooters to now police being the mass shooters.

The NYPD almost killed 9 people. Thats James Holmes type of stuff.

Dont believe everything you see.

Blocking off streets and inputing certain characters isnt that hard. Faking a scene can be done.

Something similar did cross my mind...
Another poster made a reference to one of the officers being involved in a lawsuit against the NYPD. Something about arrest quotas.
I envisioned the possibility that TPTB orchestrated it all, to cast doubt or negative light on the officer, himself, to avoid further litigation.

reply to post by GoOfYFoOt

For all we know, he was on his way to police headquarters to turn himself in!

He was on a mission to kill people or person. He just did kill somebody, now he has a gun pointed at the cops.

Sure that sounds like he wanted to turn himself in. And the big bad cops killed him just because they could right?

He got what he deserved and the cops did what they could. In the process bystanders got hurt and that sucks, but on another hand if they wouldnt kill him he would probably kill somebody else because he had nothing to loose at that point.

Cops are people with families, not all of them are bad and none of them want to die on the job.

Remember that next time you need a cop.

Well, at least the shooter could hit what he was shooting at. Better than the cops. One armed citizen could saved them 9 people from being shot unnecessarily. When are people going to wake up? We have to protect ourselves!!! These stupid gun laws that some states and cities have ARE NO GOOD!! Do they really think the bad guys are going to follow the law and NOT carry their guns?

Originally posted by maxella1
Man you are something else. Do you teach your hunters to protect themselves from an aminal pulling a gun to kill them?

Don't take my word for it look up any treatise on combat pistol shooting or CQB even ones written by SWAT and show me one time where it says "don't worry about where you are shooting just pull the trigger because the bad guy may shoot someone else" I don't think you'll find one.

You are being argumentative - we all know animals don't shoot. However, anyone with any basic gun knowledge knows you do not fire unless you have a good sight picture and a clear line of sight to the target and beyond.

That never changes - anything less is irresponsible. Marksmanship is very fundamental really.

Originally posted by maxella1
If these New York’s Finest did what you're teaching your hunters no telling how many would be shot by the nutjob.

I don't think we share a common frame of reference... Any likely hood that you will understand what I am telling you is minimal at best.

Let me ask you this one question and I think if you answer it honestly you'll have your answer.

If you are the Police Commissioner of NYC would you rather explain how your force was chasing a suspect on the crowded street and in the process he fired on random civilians and hit 9 of them before your officers could make a safe shot t take him out or that your police officers fired on a man who had a gun out (and never fired it at anyone other than the original victim) and your officers opened up on him without regard to the crowd and in so doing wounded 9 bystanders. Hey at least he didn't shoot anyone right. :LOL: No but the NYPD did... Much better outcome for police relations and credibility right?

On one hand you say our police were chasing a suspect and while they were maneuvering for a safe shot he fired on bystanders - once officers had a clean shot (no civilians in the way) at the suspect they took him out. Humm, doesn't sound bad to me... the criminal after all was the one who commited the acts not the police.

On the other you get to explain your incompetent level of training for cops and are liable financially for damages - win, win!

Again, you and I are looking at it from two differing points of view - I expect mature and sound judgment from police as a minimum. Ideally, they would couple that with good marksmanship. In this case I would settle for one or the other...I see neither.

reply to post by Golf66

I don't think we share a common frame of reference... Any likely hood that you will understand what I am telling you is minimal at best.

^^^^^^^Understatement of the week^^^^^^^^

And star for you...

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt
reply to post by Golf66

 

I don't think we share a common frame of reference... Any likely hood that you will understand what I am telling you is minimal at best.

^^^^^^^Understatement of the week^^^^^^^^

And star for you...

I really don't know what other way to put it - there is no instance in which one should pull the trigger on a firearm without having a clear sight picture of the target and beyond. Well, I guess militarily suppressive fire might be argued but not for a defensive pistol engagement at 10 feet.

My god I can't even imagine what would happen to me on a team if I missed a shot from 10 feet or wounded 9 bystanders during any engagement at any range.

I don't think them firing was a bad call at all. I think their marksmanship sucks obviously. That and just in my opinion force the perp toward the road rather than toward the fleeing citizens... That would seem the instinctive call to make.

I suppose NYPD will sweep it all quietly under the rug as this is not a situation for which any outcome is good. Nine citizens wounded - I can't fathom that level of failure. I hope they at least make them do some remedial range training. Although the union will likely come to their defense.

reply to post by maxella1

Cops are people with families, not all of them are bad and none of them want to die on the job.

Here is our issue...
Don't believe for a moment that I think ALL cops are bad! Quite to the contrary, I believe in and respect those who daily put themselves in harms way, to protect and serve their fellow citizens. It's an admirable profession, and one that seldom gets rewarded and praised. I have many friends who are in some form of law enforcement.
Many who are regular city or County officers, with a few who are at the State and even Federal level.

The problem with this whole discussion, is that you think we don't like cops in general, and look for any opportunity to voice our hatred for the boys in blue. But the real issue, is that the majority of them, would side with us, in pointing out the deficiencies portrayed, in these senseless acts.
NYPD, with their militant-styled tactics and general disdain for anyone that doesn't cower to them or that questions their authority, all the while blessed by their billionaire gun-grabbing mayor, bloomberg, have long been above the law. Every other story in the news, lately is about the bullying and underhanded tactics, of NYC's finest, towards the people of NY and even their own ranks.

This private army of Mikey's needs to be brought back under citizen control!
It's well out of hand, and things will only continue to get worse, as long as we sit idly by, and continue to do nothing.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
1 killer dead and 9 bystanders injured in broad daylight on a crowded street?

Those cops did a good job imo.

Of course, they could have stood still shouting 'Freeze' and run the chance of the gunman emptying his clips into the crowd...

Then we'd be reading a different thread about how bad police are instead of reading this thread about how bad police are. I wonder what scenario would help those police escape a thread about bad they were? If they'd disarmed the man maybe we could have run up a thread that they put people's lives at risk?

They were 5-10 feet from the guy.

How did they miss 9 shots ! ????

Have they never fired a hand gun before ? That is terrible accuracy. The would have been better lunging at him with baseball bats. They were within range to.

At the end of the day though, they seemed to have done their job properly in terms of eliminating the threat as quickly as possible.

It could have been much worse, although that guy didn't seem to want to shoot any innocent people, he looked to be trying to escape from the office shooting of his manager and only pulled the gun out once he knew the police were about to approach him because they knew who he was.

Not sure what he was thinking though. Glad nobody else was killed.

It is about time the Police Officers get wooden guns instead of real ones.
These Officers have totally forgotten what they are supposed to do. Or perhaps, they have another hidden agenda that we do not know about, and thus everything they do are exactly according to plan.

So much for the new ammo they were useing. Frangible Hollow Points, supposed to stop collateral damage. Sounds like the two Barney's need some range time. It would be interesting to know the distance of which they were shooting, and angles. Did it ever say how many times the Barneys hit the perp? Irregardless nothing will come from innocent folks getting shoot by the police. It will be buried, deep & quick.

It's probably a stupid accident.

I mean, cmon.. how smart are the police, I mean really?

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt
reply to post by maxella1

 

Cops are people with families, not all of them are bad and none of them want to die on the job.

Here is our issue...
Don't believe for a moment that I think ALL cops are bad! Quite to the contrary, I believe in and respect those who daily put themselves in harms way, to protect and serve their fellow citizens. It's an admirable profession, and one that seldom gets rewarded and praised.

Indeed, I think police have a difficult and demanding job many do have families and no one wants to die at work and not come home at night. That said, they also have an obligation to do what is necessary to accomplish their mission even if it exposes them to danger. In this case placing themselves between the shooter and the fleeing pedestrians before shooting. Lastly, I expect them to be able to shoot a man size target from 10 feet even after a jog and if that man is moving. I'd hope the standard of 10/10 times at that range would be "qualified" anything less and the person should be reading parking meters.

I expect them to have maturity and good judgment which comes into play when making any decision to engage a target with lethal force. Once that decision is made - it would be neat if they could actually hit their targets more than they hit bystanders.

I'm not asking for SFOD CQB standards for beat cops just basic marksmanship. Don't panic, aim, squeeze. Not ZOMG! Gun... Fire....1,2,3,4,5,6,7 - 9 rounds.

I am totally on the side of the police until they start shooting without taking a position to protect the bystanders and then missing more of their shots than they hit.

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt
The problem with this whole discussion, is that you think we don't like cops in general, and look for any opportunity to voice our hatred for the boys in blue. But the real issue, is that the majority of them, would side with us, in pointing out the deficiencies portrayed, in these senseless acts.

I think any police firearms trainer would tell us the same thing - poor trigger discipline, obvious panic - i.e. poor training level.

I am a police supporter most are decent guys/gals just trying to make a living. Just like in my profession some are better than others.

Trend I am seeing lately is that NYPD is trigger happy. They just shot a guy with a knife last week - surrounded by 20 cops? Really, no one had a riot shield in their car? Prison guards disarm guys that way all the time. Nope, evidently the best course of action for a man who had a knife out and hadn't hurt anyone was to kill him. I disagree. This guy had to die so no one got any stitches?

The disturbing trend I am seeing with police everywhere is they think officer safety trumps everything, the rights of the suspect, the rights of the property owner (randomly shooting dogs etc.) handcuffing someone just to run a plate - you know for Officer safety.

If the boys in blue are that scared of the general population and fear a dog bite or stitches so much they are willing to kill first to prevent them - perhaps it’s time to look for other employment options.

reply to post by Golf66

Let me ask you this one question and I think if you answer it honestly you'll have your answer.

What makes you think they had a chance to chase the perp?
The guy pulled a gun on them and prior to that he killed a person. If the cops wouldn't open fire rightaway -- the perp would. You are right about the trigger discipline, its just that in this incident they did what they had to do.

These guys are out in the street day in day out helping people with all kinds of problems and instead of thank you they get this kind of crap. It's like a guy blaming the fire department for destroying his big screen TV while trying to put out a fire in his living room, or blaming EMS for cutting his expansive pants while trying to splint his broken leg.

They panicked and missed the taget, but the other option would have been getting shot themselves or letting the perp shoot a couple more people. And YOU would be blaming them anyway.

Originally posted by openyourmind1262
So much for the new ammo they were useing. Frangible Hollow Points, supposed to stop collateral damage. Sounds like the two Barney's need some range time. It would be interesting to know the distance of which they were shooting, and angles. Did it ever say how many times the Barneys hit the perp? Irregardless nothing will come from innocent folks getting shoot by the police. It will be buried, deep & quick.

These innocent folks will sue the City and get paid for their sufferings. The other scenario would be getting shot by the perp and sue the City for not protecting them and get paid for their suffering.

The bad guy was the guy that came there to kill people not the guys that came there to save people.