All 9 people injured in Friday's shooting near the Empire State Building were wounded by Police

I have to say I for one am very concerned by the events that took place at the Empire State Building. I understand that the average police officer is not a special forces soldier, and that what happened was largely an unfortunate accident. That makes it no less tragic though.

What we should be asking here is how can this be prevented in the future. It's good to see that some of us here on ATS are for sure.

This event sadly is just the latest in a string of high-publicity bad moves by the NYPD, going back to the Occupy Wall Street protests, and including the blatantly illegal monitoring of citizens not even under their jurisdiction. These events together raise serious questions about the effectiveness, discipline and ethics of not just the police in New York but also the government there that is supposed to control them.

In the United Kingdom we take the arming of officers very seriously, and while I am not at all advocating the adoption of the UK police system in the United States, perhaps a greater amount of training is needed for American officers that carry firearms.

reply to post by ProjectJimmy

This event sadly is just the latest in a string of high-publicity bad moves by the NYPD, going back to the Occupy Wall Street protests, and including the blatantly illegal monitoring of citizens not even under their jurisdiction. These events together raise serious questions about the effectiveness, discipline and ethics of not just the police in New York but also the government there that is supposed to control them.

You're talking about the politics, "war on terror". Not the street cops. They come to work and respond to calls for help, and really want to come home after their tour.

What they did in this case was nothing more or less than try to save lives. No politics at all.

Originally posted by drivebricker
Unbelievable

New York (CNN) -- A disgruntled former apparel designer was killed Friday morning in a hail of police gunfire in front of the Empire State Building after he shot and killed a co-worker and engaged in a gunbattle with two officers, authorities said.
Police officers fired a total of 16 rounds; one officer shot nine while another one shot seven, the New York Police Department said.

Don't have much on this as of yet as the story is still breaking.

www.cnn.com

All 9 people injured in Friday's shooting near the Empire State Building were wounded by Police

edit on 25-8-2012 by drivebricker because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-8-2012 by drivebricker because: (no reason given)

edit on 26/8/2012 by Sauron because: internal quote tags to external quote tags

To me that seemed pretty obvious from the start. Well the one guy who was murdered wasn't shot by the police. That was a separate exchange. I saw the video, and it looks like the gunman only had time to pull his gun, Never got off a shot, before the police unloaded. Sixteen rounds seems to be excessive.

Of course I'm not facing a killer pulling a gun on me. Then again, I'm not a trained law enforcement officer.

reply to post by maxella1

Sure they panicked, squeezed the trigger and missed too many times.

But how do you know that they didn't assess the situation before engaging the target?

In a crowded place like the midtown in NYC if you have nutjob shooting people the more you wait the more people he could be shooting...

Did you watch the video posted on page 1 of this thread, that showed the incident related to this discussion?
The first officer was caught off guard by the suspect, and was retreating while drawing and firing multiple rounds in the perp's general direction. I believe his ONLY thought was killing the guy with the gun.
The second cop, the one shown on the right side of the video, parried the suspect, effectively removing the sidewalk full of people out of the background. Whether this was intentional, or a reaction, I have no idea. During this, one of the officers, started firing rapidly, which put the other officer into condition black, and he too, began firing.
There was no time for assessment and planning.
It was, "GUN", shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot.
Except the shooting was over, before you finished reading that last sentence.
The Glock 17 has a very good reset, and is capable of putting alot of rounds downrange, in a hurry. The downside to the Glock, is it is light, which increases recoil, and it is not generally accurate, due to it's lock-up design. But at this short distance, it is quite capable of 6-8 inch groups in rapid fire, at that distance.

Bottom line: They are cops. Not judges. Not juries. But this time, they were executioners.

reply to post by GoOfYFoOt


Until you provide some credentials i assume you are IT guys and tellers, i mean this is the internet. I can' t take everyone that tells me they are spec ops for granted or i become the fool. I mean that respectively of course and i expect you will agree with my reservations.

I dont dismiss your criticism with out merit even. I acknowledge they made mistakes, i think that much is obvious. I still think it's comical for someone to project their abilities onto a stranger and make claims that they would have done it better. Regardless of qualifications. Knowing what we know about the state of law enforcement we shouldn't expect anything less. We should strive, hope, and demand better; but not expect it.

I think we're getting closer here guys

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt
reply to post by maxella1

 

Sure they panicked, squeezed the trigger and missed too many times.

But how do you know that they didn't assess the situation before engaging the target?

In a crowded place like the midtown in NYC if you have nutjob shooting people the more you wait the more people he could be shooting...

Did you watch the video posted on page 1 of this thread, that showed the incident related to this discussion?
The first officer was caught off guard by the suspect, and was retreating while drawing and firing multiple rounds in the perp's general direction. I believe his ONLY thought was killing the guy with the gun.
The second cop, the one shown on the right side of the video, parried the suspect, effectively removing the sidewalk full of people out of the background. Whether this was intentional, or a reaction, I have no idea. During this, one of the officers, started firing rapidly, which put the other officer into condition black, and he too, began firing.
There was no time for assessment and planning.
It was, "GUN", shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot.
Except the shooting was over, before you finished reading that last sentence.
The Glock 17 has a very good reset, and is capable of putting alot of rounds downrange, in a hurry. The downside to the Glock, is it is light, which increases recoil, and it is not generally accurate, due to it's lock-up design. But at this short distance, it is quite capable of 6-8 inch groups in rapid fire.

Bottom line: They are cops. Not judges. Not juries. But this time, they were executioners.

edit on 8/26/2012 by GoOfYFoOt because: (no reason given)

So what was it two policemen? Eight shots apiece? How many shots does that gun hold? Did both men empty their guns? It seems a gun fight is a terrible thing.

reply to post by okyouwin

To me that seemed pretty obvious from the start. Well the one guy who was murdered wasn't shot by the police. That was a separate exchange. I saw the video, and it looks like the gunman only had time to pull his gun, Never got off a shot, before the police unloaded. Sixteen rounds seems to be excessive.

The time needed to squeeze a trigger after pulling a gun is seconds. Cops want to come home to their families after work just like you do...

reply to post by GoOfYFoOt

Bottom line: They are cops. Not judges. Not juries. But this time, they were executioners.

Next time you are walking down the street and there's a guy shooting people call a judge.

And don't forget to thank the troops for protecting you in Iraq.

Damn, after seeing the video of the shooting I can't blame the officers like most of you...

It was either kill or be killed. Both cops were out in the open, no protection, and the guy pulled out a gun with all the bystanders around. Really not much you can do in that situation.

I think the cops did a fine job considering the scenario. It's unfortunate that others got hurt, but at least they are alive. They will probably be rich now since the city will pay them off, and they can write books, etc., and profit from it.

Originally posted by sputniksteve
reply to post by GoOfYFoOt

 

Until you provide some credentials i assume you are IT guys and tellers, i mean this is the internet. I can' t take everyone that tells me they are spec ops for granted or i become the fool. I mean that respectively of course and i expect you will agree with my reservations.

I dont dismiss your criticism with out merit even. I acknowledge they made mistakes, i think that much is obvious. I still think it's comical for someone to project their abilities onto a stranger and make claims that they would have done it better. Regardless of qualifications. Knowing what we know about the state of law enforcement we shouldn't expect anything less. We should strive, hope, and demand better; but not expect it.

I think we're getting closer here guys

My background comes from extensive handgun and rifle training and certified civilian firearms instruction.
I'm not projecting anything on anyone. Merely, examining the available material on this incident and offering the same amount of speculation as anyone, but also interpreting the facts as I see them, from a position of understanding into the dynamics and scientifically-proven, mental state of someone subjected to such circumstances.

As stated, it's easy to second guess the officers' actions from the comfort of one's computer chair. I simply wanted to offer insight, while assisting others in searching for the proper way to edify options to said actions, for the next time.

Again we are in agreement, as to the expectations of the populace, in the ability and subsequent proficiency, of those whose daily job it is, to protect us. And in our current political discourse, as well as the government's desire to increasingly keep us as their subjects, they too, should be championing ways to ensure, that it continually remains the case.
Otherwise, what good are they?

reply to post by okyouwin

So what was it two policemen? Eight shots apiece? How many shots does that gun hold?

Yes. Two officers that were alerted by a construction worker, that he just witnessed someone shoot another individual, and either pointed him out, or relayed the direction that the suspect was traveling in.

One shot 7 rounds and the other 9, according to a NYPD spokesperson.

The Glock 17's standard magazine holds 17 rounds of 9x19mm. Plus one in the chamber.

reply to post by maxella1

Next time you are walking down the street and there's a guy shooting people call a judge.

He wasn't shooting!!!
The officers were going in with limited knowledge.
"man with gun" "may have just shot someone"
They fired the first through sixteenth shots. And were the only ones that fired.

Why do people argue points that are flawed, misrepresented, or even contrived, and then resort to animosity without reason or justification?

Glock 17's

Did the police state that or is there a clear video that someone positively identified the weapons. Just curious...

reply to post by senselessness

It was either kill or be killed. Both cops were out in the open, no protection, and the guy pulled out a gun with all the bystanders around. Really not much you can do in that situation.

Not much! But there was more that could have been done, than what they did do.

Could I have done better? I can't honestly answer that.
Do I know beforehand, what I would do, in that situation? Yes, but that doesn't mean I would have the capacity to fulfill it.
Nor, is there training available for any and every given situation. There are always going to be variables and unknowns. That's why the utmost training is imperative, for those who would place themselves in a position to encounter them.

I feel horrible that the officers had to be put into that situation in the first place. The blame for that lies squarely on the guy that shot and killed his former co-worker. But, knowing that the potential exists, for an officer to become immersed into a scenario such as this one, should have the sobering effect of ensuring confidence in one's abilities. As well as the jurisprudence in place to maintain a superior level of training.

Officers of the law, should be held to a higher standard. Not sympathized with, for the ordeals that they may or may not have to endure. They chose the position. They should exemplify it.

Originally posted by roadgravel

Glock 17's

Did the police state that or is there a clear video that someone positively identified the weapons. Just curious...

Someone stated it was 9mm. And another stated that issued duty weapons for NYPD are Glocks.
I was inferring that it was the full sized G17.
I didn't verify it personally...

The only video I'm aware of, is much too vague to even state with certainty that they used guns. They could have been hairbrushes for all I know.
Again, I'm just going on what has been said in the media, and inferring the only logical conclusion.
Semantics, really...

Probably a good assumption given how widely it is used.

Originally posted by roadgravel
Probably a good assumption given how widely it is used.

I was actually shocked. As I thought most departments had moved to the Glock 22 in .40 Smith & Wesson.

As for the suspect, it was reported that he possessed a .45 "caliber" handgun.
I speculate that it was a 1911 or variant in .45 ACP, based on the statement that one "clip" (magazine) had an 8 round capacity and his second mag, allegedly found in his briefcase held only 6 rounds.
Sounds like a Wilson or McCormick for his primary and probably the factory mag in the briefcase.

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt
reply to post by maxella1

 

Next time you are walking down the street and there's a guy shooting people call a judge.

He wasn't shooting!!!
The officers were going in with limited knowledge.
"man with gun" "may have just shot someone"
They fired the first through sixteenth shots. And were the only ones that fired.

Why do people argue points that are flawed, misrepresented, or even contrived, and then resort to animosity without reason or justification?

So they respond to a man with a gun may have just shot somebody. When they get there they find a guy pulling a gun.

Should they have waited before he actually fired his gun before shooting back? Just run away and hide and wait for him to open fire?

What would you be saying if they have done that and the perp fired more shots at the bystenders before the cops take him out while hiding somewhere ?

reply to post by GoOfYFoOt

Not much! But there was more that could have been done, than what they did do.

Yes the perp would run out of bullets or get hit by a bus.