Why should I go to hell?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Because you won't share your understanding. A quick summary on Jesus' magnum opus would be much appreciated, that way we can all get in on the joke.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Could you maybe say what your meaning behind quoting that poem was?

It means nothing to you since you have already determined that it is an accurate description of a real concrete place.
To people who can understand it as a metaphor would get the analogy that you can describe something not concrete which people can use to interpret into a philosophical reality of the intangible.

reply to post by jmdewey60


How do you know I won't understand your meaning? If you don't explain it then how do you expect me to understand? What is your interpretation of the poem? Can you think of a more accurate interpretation?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

On the rock of Peter's testimony, which was not of flesh and bones but of the spirit (heavenly father) the gates of hell will not and cannot prevail. It's a gate crash. Even in Revelations hell and death are thrown away, and we're placed back onto the karmic wheel where the good continue to do good, and the evil, evil.
The reason and the purpose (of the magnum opus), is love, and sharing, and trust and faith in the one who is both within and among us and yet who also transcends us. There's no possibility of hell anywhere in it, but it requires an understanding involving the non-dual nature of the love of God, which is all-inclusive, and unmerited (from our perspective), as a free gift. We can't earn it, or deserve it, just recieve what God is freely offering. Imagine if you will that the "strong man" is bound and everything of any value taken away. So now if God is for us, and this is the length that he is willing to go, then there's no threat, and no fear, just spiritual inclusion as child of God without the possibility of separation. In light of this your question is very amuzing, especially when it's being made on the basis of a proclamation of a lack of belief IN the efficacy of the magnum opus of Jesus Christ while touting the degree to which you yourself are Christlike.
It's like you're merely suffering from a small dose (or maybe a large one I don't know) of rebellious teenage angst, nothing more. Anyway, don't let anything I say push you away any further, and some things you just have to eventually figure out on your own, but if you keep seeking, you will find it.
But why you would oppose or discard the ultimate reasoning by which the gates of hell were crashed on your behalf and then temp everyone's knowledge of the efficacy of the work of Christ by posing this question. Are you trying to bring us, and Jesus, all into disrepute, while proving that you are so righteous that you have singlehandedly secured a place for yourself in heaven by your own good works..?

Spiritual pride, and the desire to deny Christ, while trying to break into heaven by one's own merit, I don't know, that could qualify, but God's way ahead of you, and me, and most certainly the evil one if there ever was such a one, so no worries as they say, but it would be nice if you were to discover the mind of Christ and get the joke, which is unique to each person based on their own unique style of prior ignorance and egotism. You'll know it when it happens, when you "pop".

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I have a very different view of what heaven is compared to you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe heaven is a separate place from our universe?

What if heaven and the universe are the same things? What if we are already in heaven, only hell within heaven? Those are my beliefs so maybe that's why I can't grasp this magnum opus of yours.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

How do you know I won't understand your meaning? If you don't explain it then how do you expect me to understand? What is your interpretation of the poem? Can you think of a more accurate interpretation?

I'm not interpreting the poem. I am interpreting Elliot's use of metaphor. He says there is a place in the center of the earth where you can dance. There is no such place. There is some sort of reality even if it is in your own mind that you can create by visualizing this nonexistent place.
You may be like what I said earlier, someone not capable of seeing metaphor so you make everything literal and figure out some sort of rationalization which avoids anything which is not of a concrete nature, so my analogy does not work for you, much like how NOTurTypical has to "fix" everything into the "real" then becomes dogmatic in defending his "reality" since to move away from that position means to him that he must do the unthinkable, to consider anything not concrete as being something somehow still real.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

No you're close. Heaven to be heaven, just like love to be love, must make an appearance, here, and now, you're right! But it's a downward causation, eminating from the un/incorruptible center and source as a first/last cause, into our world - "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". The Magnum Opus of Jesus Christ was and still is to make manifest the kingdom of heaven on earth, a hiearchy of love as the governing dynamic of the universe which must be distinguished from the stupidity of the earthly kingdom of greedy and selfish men, It's a movement, a fulcrum of power, a shift and a change of kingdoms, whereby when the hearts of men change, kingdoms will change. It's the principal, personified, so why not give credit where credit is due and recieve what's being freely offered, and bring it into our experience and into the domain of the brotherhood of man, without seeking any credit for ourselves, which is pride and egotism.

You have a lot yet to learn, and there is a blind spot or a domain of an unknown unknown which you can't quite seem to grasp, but it's you, your own ego, which won't let you see it, because it fears that it might lose it's power, when in truth everything that is best in us, is only magnified when we humble ourselves, and there's no amount of Christ or Christ-mindedness which can possibly ruin a personality or the mind and heart and soul of a person, God is the perfect gentleman, but our heart is designed to contain his spirit of truth, life and love. The means by which this reintegration is made possible, such that hell as a possibility is done away with, is the magnum opus of Jesus Christ, which obliterates hell and the fear of hell, even while we are still in many respects a work in progress, although it's by no means a persmissive framework to sin either (that's funny!)

You want to stand on your own, fine, but please don't try to tempt other believers into putting forth an argument as to why you should go to hell, after proclaiming that you don't believe that Jesus accomplished anything on your behalf, that's rather twisted my friend..there's something wrong with the inquiry, and the basis of this entire thread, find that, whatever is driving it, let it go and then make a new, open-minded inquiry, and you'll find the secret joke I refer to, and you will laugh and maybe even cry a bit too, and then smile and laugh some more.

reply to post by jmdewey60


My views are constantly changing, I don't hunker down into any set of beliefs and stick with them no matter what. I welcome change.

I am excellent with metaphors actually. Do you not remember the first thread I made? It's all about the bible and how a lot of the stories within it are metaphors.

This place does exist, it is happening in front of your eyes every instant, you just don't notice it. Take a picture and that picture is stuck within that moment forever. Think of the dance as a huge flip book, where when you flip through the pages fast enough you will see individual pictures start to move and 'dance', but once you stop at a certain page it is motionless. Each individual page is equivalent to the 'now'.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


What has he accomplished on my behalf other than me following his teachings? The world is the way it is today for a reason, and Jesus has nothing to do with it. Nothing he died for changed anything in the world, it has only gotten worse and worse since his death. I'm not taking anything away from him, I'm just not giving him any more than he deserves.

I am humble and do not see myself as egocentric, I readily admit fault when it is warranted, you will see this earlier in this thread and other threads. I don't desire power either because I know in order to have power you must trick others into thinking they are less than you which I do not believe in.


ETA: I also agree with heaven being able to be brought to Earth, but it is our own responsibility to change it into that. If you just sit on your hands and wait for Jesus to fix it for you you are only adding to the problem, which in my opinion is one of the main goals of the teachings of religion, to make the masses complacent while waiting for their savior to come.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I think we're only now just beginning to come into a better and fuller and richer understanding of Jesus and what he was all about, including what he did accomplish and the rational by which he went to the cross knowing well in advance where his path led. It wasn't all for nought. And his teachings don't mean much if we don't make room for him (and the father) within our own sacred heart. He's food and drink, and he's to be eaten and fully integrated or "grokked". His edict, or his only commendment is to love one another (including ourselves) as he loves us, but to have and give such a love as this, we need to have the openmindedness and the willingness to recieve it in the first place and then overflow into the world, because we can't give what we don't already posses in abandance and he's the abundance, you see?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


That's where you're misunderstanding me, I have already accepted what Jesus taught and I emulate what he taught by having love for everyone. What matters is his teachings not he himself.

I also added an edit to the previous post.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

This place does exist, it is happening in front of your eyes every instant, you just don't notice it. Take a picture and that picture is stuck within that moment forever. Think of the dance as a huge flip book, where when you flip through the pages fast enough you will see individual pictures start to move and 'dance', but once you stop at a certain page it is motionless. Each individual page is equivalent to the 'now'.

That is all nice and everything that you have this interpretation and I am not even concerned with that other than to point out that this reality you are describing is based on a fable, to use Templeton's term in his book, The New Testament as True Fiction.
This reality of yours exists to you in your here and now but you came to this realization through interpreting a description of a place that does not actually exist other than on the page of a book in the form of poetry.
What Templeton is suggesting is 'why not look at the NT in the same way?'
Now the use of Elliot's poem (by Templeton) was not about anything in particular in the NT but illustrative of the general principle of understanding literature as an art form which is not subject to the rigorous proofs that non-fiction is.
It was my choice to pull that one out in particular to add to the thread, hoping that it connects in some way to what one could think of hell as.
My personal view on hell is that it is a sort of suspended animation that could easily trap someone since when inside it, it is impossible to get a real perspective on where you are exactly other than what is immediately apparent to you, which is a lot of things but nothing especially being accomplished other than wondering if it is ever going to end.

So, let me make some sense of this. God made us as we are, complete with ego, sexual desire for reproduction or otherwise, and with a will of our own, which, if we do what is natural and God-given, we then sin.

reply to post by InTheLight

So, let me make some sense of this. God made us as we are, complete with ego, sexual desire for reproduction or otherwise, and with a will of our own, which, if we do what is natural and God-given, we then sin.

Is that a question or is that rhetorical and somewhat sarcastic?I don't think of it as a single individual out there named God who did all that, meaning set up this situation we are in, and on purpose for some devious reason.
I think that everything started with not a person, but who we call the Mother of All, which in reality was the unified spirit of everyone who now inhabits the universe, but before there was a universe, we were in a void as pure thought. In that hive-mind sort of state, we envisioned a universe in which to live and set the thing in motion to create it but left it to it as it began to take shape. That it is still alive and creates a certain amount of chaos as its life winds down and tries to be the universe itself. While this is happening, we all live in a place governed by laws that are impossible to oppose single-handedly, so we hold each other up until it finally dies and leaves the universe in a state of peace where we can enjoy our lives as we planned from the beginning.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I've been a good person my entire life, I follow what Jesus taught to a tee. I love everyone as I love myself and I treat others as I would want to be treated. I have never been in a fight and have never intentionally hurt anyone or swindled anyone for my own benefit. I'm as truthful a person as you will ever find, I never lie unless I believe it is a necessary one in order to avoid hurting someone else. I have never killed any creature intentionally or for sport. I've never even stepped on an ant purposely. I believe I have perfect morality in the fact that I follow what Jesus taught, I grew up learning of the lessons he taught and believed the story around Jesus, the death and resurrection. I know these lessons and modeled my life around what he taught.

The only difference between me now and me while I was Christian is that I do not believe Jesus died on the cross or was resurrected three days later. I do not believe he walked on water or turned water into wine with a wave of a hand.

So tell me, why should I deserve to burn for eternity when I strive to emulate what Jesus was, a kind and loving person who holds no grudges and doesn't judge others based on their personal beliefs/opinions?

I'd like a better reason than 'because you don't believe in Jesus' please.

Thanks.

edit on 15-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

The concept that a loving God would relegate countless innocent 'creations' (essentially, splinters of himself/herself)...that do not subscribe to One solitary, rule of inclusion...is, insane beyond belief...

...and belittles to an abyssmal degree, the love, a 'creator' would have for parts of himself/herself...

There is no schizophrenic and murderous God...save the one created by man...

Relinquish this creation and claim your place...

A99

reply to post by jmdewey60


I understand what you mean now, thanks for clarifying.

reply to post by jmdewey60


It was not sarcasm, but rather a conclusion in my mind. Your theory is delivered well, however, you did not address the issue of sinning as being something which we do naturally. As for the topic of this discussion, Hell, if we are to believe that all sinners go to Hell, then what conclusion am I to draw?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I understand what you mean now, thanks for clarifying.

I get a little cranky sometimes when I am up past my bed time, like last night.
I can do better often to just stop and try later, as in the next day.

reply to post by jmdewey60


No problem, we all get cranky every now and then.

Originally posted by InTheLight
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

It was not sarcasm, but rather a conclusion in my mind. Your theory is delivered well, however, you did not address the issue of sinning as being something which we do naturally. As for the topic of this discussion, Hell, if we are to believe that all sinners go to Hell, then what conclusion am I to draw?

Its my opinion we are naturally born into sin as well. One of my main goals in life is not to blame God when ive been dropped to my knees in spirit.

Our spirit is in conflict with the flesh and blood via human because here on Earth evil... Or bad.... is known via perception of the mind.

So its written and we could choose to believe that in time the spirit and flesh will align into a perfect union once again as Jesus showed us atonement is attainable.

All souls will evolve to make the union happen so we may have a heaven on earth without corruption of tainted blood. Hope this makes sense.