World War 3 - is upon us !!! Rapture is Even Closer!

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by ThisIsNotReality

 

So in conclusion, you can point that pretty finger of yours in both directions, because from the sound of it, you are no better than what you obviously despise, so go out, buy a nice thick rope, and contribute to ending what you so dearly hate.

Let me see here, a CHRISTIAN promoting Suicide, and encouraging one of our members to commit suicide. Yep, a statement such as this hate filled piece only proves Druscilla to be right, at least where you are concerned. Tell me, how does a person like you sleep at night?

Read over the ATS T&C.

I always find posts like these amusing where it often seems that a number of faithful are just ticking time-bombs of zealotry; yearning for a day when they can put on their armor of gawd, to go out and smite sinners, infidels, heretics, and anyone else that doesn't fit their profile of what, and who, and how, everyone needs to be.

I find it sad that suicide is indeed considered a sin in such faiths, because were it not, such troubled souls might find happiness and solace in checking out for their reward in heaven, paradise, candy mountain, or wherever it is they believe they're going to magically wind up after punching the clock.

All in all, I think that people would be much happier if the First and ONLY commandment was:
Be happy, and strive for completion, so long as such does not interfere with anyone else's own path.
Such a commandment is ambiguous enough for people to debate interpretation, but, precise enough to include consideration of others.

It's sad so many religions, tenants, or adherents to many faiths will always, for whatever reason, find cause, or justification for violence in their teachings.
It's almost like many faiths doctrines can be summed up with "Be good and holy, so long as it's convenient to do so".

Religion is so baffling, contradictory, and amusing. It's almost like Calvin Ball. Why is that?

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by Druscilla

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by ThisIsNotReality

 

So in conclusion, you can point that pretty finger of yours in both directions, because from the sound of it, you are no better than what you obviously despise, so go out, buy a nice thick rope, and contribute to ending what you so dearly hate.

Let me see here, a CHRISTIAN promoting Suicide, and encouraging one of our members to commit suicide. Yep, a statement such as this hate filled piece only proves Druscilla to be right, at least where you are concerned. Tell me, how does a person like you sleep at night?

Read over the ATS T&C.

It's sad so many religions, tenants, or adherents to many faiths will always, for whatever reason, find cause, or justification for violence in their teachings.
It's almost like many faiths doctrines can be summed up with "Be good and holy, so long as it's convenient to do so".

Religion is so baffling, contradictory, and amusing. It's almost like Calvin Ball. Why is that?

edit on 15-8-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

Of course it says so much about human nature that people will profess peace while holding a gun and to do that in the name of any faith in this day and age is ridiculous, tsk, these faith people, what can you do with them???

But wait!!!! Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao - all reject any faith (Hitler dubiously referred to himself as Christian when it suited him) and yet slaughtered millions!!! Do you think we may be on to something here that it isn't the faith (or lack of) that's the issue?

reply to post by ResearchEverything777

"Bible Prophecy expert Grant Jeffrey gives a comprehensive explanation of the Rapture of the Church using sound Biblical Scripture."

If you believe this guy, then you have been duped into believing a bunch of Dispensational nonsense. His "argument" for the Rapture is to say basically, 'How else could you be resurrected?'.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Hey I remember this Grant R. Jeffrey guy.
I even have 2 of his books... made a big impression on me back then.

I just want to let you know that the common interpretation of "Jesus is coming back and will rapture people" seems to be based on poor out of context interpretations. I am actually just coming to understand this myself within the last two weeks. First I saw this video: but he was way to slow in coming to the point so I didn't actualy watch it, instead I googled "Jesus isn't coming back" and "There will be no rapture".

Just ask what does the scripture say? Turns out, it may not say what you think. People tend to parrot each other and even the preachers. But, that doesn't make the christian consensus correct.

Also when Jesus said "I am he" in reference to the Messiah he was technically, according to record, saying "the false prophets will come claiming I am he". In the originals this was not "quoted" as it is is some copies of modern day scripture, any scripture that quotes it is simply some mans interpretation. In other words the church itself may be full of false prophets claiming Jesus is the Messiah (he did foretell the coming of one after him, the Paraclete perhaps that one "is he"). But the wording he actually used in the ancient accounts indicates he seemingly said he was not the Messiah and that people would come deceiving many. in his own words, talking to the people that were with him "[they will say] I am he" aka. they wont claim to be the Christ themselves, they will claim that Jesus is the Christ. Make sense? You can look it up online, not all version are interpreted as being quotes of "I am he" the accurate versions wont have quotes because scripture doesn't include them. sorry for the diatribe, but its poorly evaluated interpretations being reprinted and parroted that causes people to blind themselves.

We all know the church that took over his ministry corrupted itself, and now according to another new post in these forums is one of Germany's largest porn distributors while claiming to be against pornography. Just cause its widely held church belief just doesn't make it true.

Long story short, the rapture talk that Jesus gave was stated as being for "this generation" aka, his, the one he was talking to. If it happened it happened 2000 years ago, and there doesn't seem to be any historical evidence of people vanishing in mass at that time either... Sorry. But that's what up.

WARNING: if the light's too bright, go ahead and pull that wool back over your eyes. After all, you are a sheep in his fold right? It's ok, you can say it:
"He's my Shepard, and I am his sheep."
"I shall be blinded until his external presence comes to shear the wool out of my eyes."

I've gone back and forth over the years on the timing of the rapture, but I now think it is a Pre-Trib, because of several reasons FWIW.

1) Jesus had both a "Private" and "Public" Ascencion after his resurrection. Private was after he encountered Mary at the tomb. Public was in full view of Disciples and other witnesses. His return to the 'Clouds" for his Bride as depicted in Thessalonians is before the time at the very end when he returns and steps on the Mt of Olives. In Jewish culture of Jesus's day, the Groom would appear suddenly in the middle of the night unannounced for the Bride. The Wedding feast lasted 7 Days (Years of tribulation), hence the warning to "be ready"

2) Doctrine of Imminence: No one knows day or hour.. You can count down the days from the signing of the 7 year treaty to calculate Christ's return. This negates the matter of imminency The Rapture is for the 5 wise virgins that were prepared as explained in the Parable.

3) Restrainer is taken out of the way: Some say this is the true church that is alive on the earth today. When the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, God's attention is on the the Jewish people for the remaining 7 years and secondly on unbelievers who recieve judgements.

4) Rev. Ch 11 - Multitudes are in Heaven procliaming God's glory. The Rapture and Bema judgment of believiers have been accomplished.

5) Christ returns with his Bride to wage war on the Antichrist. Hard to do that if we're still hanging around on earth.

5) The 1444,000 sealed from the 12 tribes, the 2 Witnesses and the Angels flying in the air proclaiming the day of the Lord is at hand ... Repent, are what God will use in the abscence of his church during the Trinulation period to save the lost who will repent and turn to him.


The "gathering his elect from the four winds" at the end has to do with Jews and non-Jews that accept Christ during the tribulation and manage to escape being beheading during the reign of the A/C.

Originally posted by yuppa

Originally posted by AriesJedi
reply to post by Jinxy

 

When you understand that Revelation is over TEN years not 7 it falls into place better.
In the first 5 chapters of Revelation, there is a church called Sardis; the dead church and they have to go through TEN years.
And Babylon still has 10 yrs of their 70 yrs that God gave them in Jeremiah.

We are definitely in the Great Tribulation which started January 2009.
And I can back this up but that would have be a new thread, as it is very detailed.

So you can thank God you have come through the 6 Seals, I do.

Wasnt one of the seal the Ocean will turn to blood? Have we seen that yet? I dont remember that one happening yet. So im confused on your time line. And predicting it as you have is a sure fire way to push it back since for you to know contradicts God correct?

When I saw the gulf oil spill, from an aerial view, I thought it looked very akin to the earth bleeding out into the ocean. Just a thought.

Also, Aris Jedi, I too would love to see a thread on the Great Tribulation, and a run down of your interpretation of the broken seals. It sound very interesting.

I come from a different point of view, but I always was taught - that prediction is a tool meant to warn and subvert disaster and iniquity. It is suppose to cause change. Should the Great Tribulation actually take place, it would be because mankind brought it upon themselves. As god has given you a Book, which if followed and adhered too, should waylay the time table of your Revelations. Otherwise, it's a rather pointless piece of conjecture, isn't it?

You see, I was taught, you don't want daddy to have to come down from the heavens to stop his caretakers on this planet from destroying Earth. It wouldn't bode well for us, I suspect. The caretakers of us that would be sent, I rather suspect, have other things to do. I'd hate to contend with a more spiritually and technologically advanced race of beings sent to discipline us. Doesn't sound very fun. Which in the simplest terms, is what Revelations warns will happen.

So it's best, and better for our children's future and interests, to subvert wars, oppression, disasters, pollution, and such to ensure that our times are not the times spoken of in Revelations. That's my position, as a believer in a higher intelligence/force monitoring our activities. So please, please, please - stop fighting on who is right and wrong, whether there is something or isn't something other than ourselves, and start focusing on HOW to spiritually and socially catch back up with our technology. We are sadly lapsing in many ways. In a goods rich society, there are some things that should be free to all life. After all, there are plenty of baubles to keep the cash flow turning. For example - instead of solving a problem, we create plastic and bottle one of the most abundant resources necessary for life, just for a quick buck - while some still bathe in the rivers they decimate in.

There is one End Times preacher on the radio that has been teaching that 5 of the 6 seals have passed and we are waiting now for the 6th seal where 1/3 of people on Earth will die.

He says WW1 = First Seal

WW2= 2nd Seal

Gulf War= 5th Seal

Chernobyl= 3rd Seal

He is just making stuff up. Buyer beware!

The Bible...Must Be Rightly Divided... (IN CONTEXT)



 

   


Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day.
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1).
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1).
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the Church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "Church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

**Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14).
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10).
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

www.thepropheticyears.com...

More Proof...

"Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.

Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46).
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium" www.thepropheticyears.com...

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Seriously??? Jerusalem was sieged in 70 AD and about 1-1.5 million people died. Lets just be super liberal for your sake and say 10 million died which is giving you a huge break.

50+ million died in WW2. And please source where Christ returned in glory and every nation and people witnessed it.

Considering the difference in population compared to back then, it would be equal to about 23 million today, pretty high for a single event. So it would have been the worst single catastrophe in history.

Most if not all "Christians" I have met in my lifetime have been just the way you explained them to be. Sometimes I feel that Christians just use the guise of their religion to lie to themselves, hide their buried evil self's, justify their two-faced personal belief systems and they always think that they are better than you. Those who are taught to "judge not" seem to "judge most". The Christians don't see it, or can't, or will not ever see it. This is not hate speech, this is the truth as I see it.

reply to post by mikemck1976


Herein lies the problem.
I guess many christians do not understand their own faith, their own standing (or lack of) and their own debts.
I truly believe that by nature (my personal human nature,) I am utterly corrupt, selfish, self centred, and I put myself on the throne of my heart. I am my own god. That is much of the sickness at the heart of humanity. Only one person can be on the throne of my heart. If it's me, it can't be my neighbour or anyone else, therefore, everyone elses and everything else comes second to ME.

If, as I believe, Jesus the Messiah came to redeem humanity, save me from myself (cos I don't want to get off the throne of my heart even if I am a bad and corrupted ruler), give me new birth and a new life because He unconditionally loves me and demonstrates that by giving everything He possibly can to reconcile me to Him, I become an object of and recipient of grace. Grace is a free gift. I cannot earn it, I cannot sell it, I cannot force it upon someone. To understand what Jesus has done for me is to understand the depth and nature of my own depravity that I have been rescued from. As long as I live in this mortal body, this flesh that I walk around in will continue to resist the new life in me, because by nature it wants to be self determining, self serving. The new life in me points to this and points to the new life within me given by someone who wants to love something so unlovely.
I can and should do nothing but show unconditional love and grace to humans around me.
There is more than enough in this world to distract us from growth, awareness and awakeness.
Some people live for money. Some for sex, some power, prestige and acclamation, appetite.
What we choose to feed ourselves with explains alot about our inner natures. Why would anyone want to smoke, for example? People say it's personal choice, but they are actually slaves to an unfruitful desire and use many kinds of mental deception to justify it. We are slaves to much but cannot recognise or accept it.
I have grace for today, and that is what I am expected to share with the world around me. Unconditional love. That is what my Jesus is teaching me. Do I get it right? No, not always. But I aspire to. To the degree that I choose to feed that nature is the degree I become nourished in that nature.
The parable of the sower is a classic example. Truth has different impacts on different people. Even those that accept it, the 'yield' is different.
Too many christians are living as if their 'heavenly house' is here on earth. Riches and wealth and the pleasures of this world are fleeting and capricious. You cannot build a house on such things. It isn't a strong foundation.
My foundation was dug in this life for a house that human hands cannot build.
I'm sorry you have found christians so judgemental. Maybe they've forgotten the height from which they have fallen. Maybe they're so zealous to share good news with you but don't know how to share it.
At the end of the day, God is judge. I'll leave it up to Him. I'm not smart or wise enough to make that call.

reply to post by ResearchEverything777

2 THESS SAY THAT A FALLING AWAY AND A REVEALING OF THE MAN OF SIN WILL COME BEFORE HIS RETURN.

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
00014 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
00015 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
00016 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

um the WORD rapture is not in the bible, but its described in the bible.....

Corinthians 15:51-54 - Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Dan. 12:1-3 - At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people — everyone whose name is found written in the book — will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Thess: 4:15-18 - According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other
with these words.

Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium? If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium"

reply to post by ResearchEverything777


Zechariah 14:16-17
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium? If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium"

Does this not suggest or imply that during the millenium reign of Messiah, there is still rebellion in the hearts of man, ie not everyone will submit to His reign?

um the WORD rapture is not in the bible, but its described in the bible.....

reply to post by SolarIce


1 Thessalonians 4:17 'Then we who are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
If you look up in the Vulgate translation, the word 'CAUGHT UP' is 'rapiemur'. It is the latin translation of ἁρπάζω or
'harpazō'. 'Rapiemur' is where we get the word 'rapture' from.

reply to post by SolarIce


"Rapture" is Latin... check the Latin Bible.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Seriously??? Jerusalem was sieged in 70 AD and about 1-1.5 million people died. Lets just be super liberal for your sake and say 10 million died which is giving you a huge break.

50+ million died in WW2. And please source where Christ returned in glory and every nation and people witnessed it.

Considering the difference in population compared to back then, it would be equal to about 23 million today, pretty high for a single event. So it would have been the worst single catastrophe in history.

Jesus never said worst single tragedy. It is a period of time. And 70 AD was focused on Jerusalem, not "the world". Why do you think Preterism was all but abandoned after WW1 and 2?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Hey I remember this Grant R. Jeffrey guy.
I even have 2 of his books... made a big impression on me back then.

He passed away in May.