Watch what happens when Guns are banned in Australia

Originally posted by EvillerBob
In 1981, handguns and semi auto rifles were still legal for civilian ownership. In 1981 there were 8 handgun-related deaths. My apologies but I cannot find my citation for this, I will add it later when I track it down.

In 2010, handguns and semi auto rifles had been out of civilian hands for more than a decade, as your Utopia would demand. There were 40 homicides - 12995 incidents involving firearms, of which 2574 incidents involved using a firearm to harm or threaten, of which 40 were homicides - of which 28 were committed using handguns.

You would have to compare this to numbers per 100, 000 to actually get a rate. Populations etc have increased since 1981 to 2010 ergo comparing straight numbers won't be accurate. You would also have to do it over time.

That said, the difference between 8 and 40 is surprisingly meaningless in the populations we're talking about. Swimming pools kill more people.

Originally posted by Unrealised
All it takes is for a criminal to break in to your house while you aren't there and steal your weapons. Then you have no weapons and they have some. It's as simple as that. You may go and buy more weapons, but hey, they might get stolen, too.

This type of logic is just plain stupid. My guns are bolted into the wall. Almost everyone in my street has been robbed. I was only robbed once before I was armed. Has never happened again since. Furthermore, cracking a safe or removing it from my concrete flooring isn't going to happen any time soon.

You also state 'guns are retarded'. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. A few inflammatory bleeding heart pieces in the media and suddenly the insults are sent flying and everyone is riding on board moral high horses. I'm not even a full on gun nut and find that kind of logic offensive.

So they track down and take all the legal gun owners who willing but with regret continue to follow the law so that all the ghetto useless unregistered gun owners can now commit their crimes with less worry of being met with a gun

Give it time and Australians won’t have any rights to own a firearm. That’s going to awesome when China decides to invade and take the country over to provide for their masses.

reply to post by AndyMayhew


Hunting, protection, bop an idiot over the head with, scare away bears and mountain lions, to name a few things.

reply to post by links234


Not sure what math you are using, but a population having 14% less people and only 10% less crime equals more crime per capita, not less as you said.

Just saying try taking off your shoes next time, it might help!

Originally posted by links234
reply to post by mal1970

 

Let's see here, according to the Australian Institute of Criminology there were 253 murders in Australia in 2007. According to the CDC there were 16,799 homicides in the United States the same year. That's 66 times less than the US.

In 2003, fewer than 16% of homicides involved firearms in Australia.

There were 176,427 recorded assaults in Australia in 2007. In America the number was 1.8 million. That's 10 times less than the US.

There were 19,781 recorded sexual assaults in Australia in 2007. The United States recorded 203,830 sexual assaults in 2008. That's 10 times less than the US.

In 2007 the population of the US was 301 million, in Australia the population was 21 million. That's 14 times less than the US.

Overall, you're safer in Australia than you are in the United States.

Eh... if you are comparing two country's and one has 1/14th the population of the other, then a 1/10th crime rate means there is MORE, not less, crime per capita in the country with the smaller population.

For instance:

176,427 assaults out of 21 million = 0.84% of the total population
1.8 million assaults out of 301 million = 0.59% of the total population

Hi First Time Poster long time reader.

As an Australian I felt compelled to respond to this video with evidence & facts unlike the vexatious banality displayed in the video.

The film was propaganda pure and simple. Gun violence in Australia is extraordinarily low. Seeing that guns are generally used to kill people lets look at our murder rate.

Murders in Australia, a country of 20 million people was 260 in 2008 (that's the newest stats I can find - www.abs.gov.au...@.nsf/Lookup/D1B46FA4D698BAB5CA25773700169C9F). That's right 260 people were murdered in Australia in 2008. The vast majority of these murders were "murder sucide" usually by the husband killing his wife.

Compared to the US I imagine that is about the equiv of a day or two's worth of murder/suicides.

In terms of gun violence yes we have have highly publicised events. Usually a dozen or so a year in our poorest neighborhoods where you hear about a few drive by shootings. For example where I live there have been two shooting events this year. They are mainly domestic violence. Yes criminals and gangs will have fights but they're not stupid enough to draw the general population. For many decades our corrupt police force (see the film Blue Murder) ran the criminal gangs in our metropolitan cities). In return for a green light (i.e. to sell drugs) you had to ensure that you never targeted civilians, that you never sold drugs near schools and you paid the cops off regularly. From my understanding though it was cleaned up in the 1990s but from my discussions with my local drug dealers this still goes on to a certain extent.

For home invasions, which is basically an armed robbery of a private house these only ever happen when the criminals know that the individual has a large amount of money in the house, usually undeclared ill-gotten cash. Random citzens don't get targeted.

The fact of the matter is ever since 1997 during the Port Arthur Massacre where the government banned all semi-automatic weapons there have been zero mass shootings!

I don't have access to the statistics for the United States but I would say that in the last 15 years that the US has had dozens of double digit massacres and hundreds if not thousands of massacres involving 10 people or less.

The key difference is that relating to the accessibility of guns. The video displayed on this article appears to have been produced partly by our "Guns Party". A bunch of yokels who like things that go bang. Hardly people you'd want looking after small children let alone owning weapons.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to have me own mini-gun a'la Predator style or a M50 heavy machine gun, and who didn't have dreams of taking out the bullies at school but you know I'd rather those desires remain a dream/fantasy then a reality where some crazy guy (with no record of being crazy) gets his hands on a weapon and kills my fellow citzens or worse still someone i know or love.

The criminals in Australia must be of a different sort compared to the US. Certainly no one is scared to walk around the streets at night and we're not scared of criminals. In fact in nearly every single category of crime there have been significantly reductions since 2000. Basically the single factor behind this was the introduction of a massive synthetic opiate replacement programs.

I would prefer the legalisation of heroin but hey people thought it was a good thing to enrich the drug lords with $600 a gram heroin.

Originally posted by chugs
For home invasions, which is basically an armed robbery of a private house these only ever happen when the criminals know that the individual has a large amount of money in the house, usually undeclared ill-gotten cash. Random citzens don't get targeted.

Sexual assaults and various other things have increased since gun bans: Link

Some criminals are off put by not having guns, others just use other methods. I'm not aware that home invasions are random exactly.

The fact of the matter is ever since 1997 during the Port Arthur Massacre where the government banned all semi-automatic weapons there have been zero mass shootings!

Yes, in the decade after there hasn't been any 'mass shootings' exactly but mass shootings are defined as killings of at least 5 or more people which is rare anyway. There have been shootings involving four or less people. In the decade before there was a handful of cases of five or more.

You could make an argument that gun bans have prevented more five or mores I suppose but I consider four deaths still significant.

A bunch of yokels who like things that go bang. Hardly people you'd want looking after small children let alone owning weapons.

Already said the video is a bit sensationalist, but please don't refer to all gun owners as yokels or offend my parenting instinct.

The criminals in Australia must be of a different sort compared to the US. Certainly no one is scared to walk around the streets at night and we're not scared of criminals.

Random assaults in the city are incredibly common in Australia. I was more comfortable in East London and Glasgow than I have been in Perth and Sydney. Though I'll be honest, I'm not sure how assault statistics compare between both countries and perhaps these days I go to rougher areas.

Double click post. YAY!

Originally posted by CB328

Taking away the firearm of the law abider doesn't take away the gun of the criminal

If there wasn't such a surplus of legal guns it would be much harder for criminals to get them.

Guns cause far more harm than any supposed good they do.

here is a little fact for you. most criminals are repeat offenders. if an individual has a criminal record he can't purchase a firearm legally.

purchasing firearms by criminals is irrelivent because most criminals can't purchase them.

the gun problem in America isn't with the surplus of legal firearms, its with the surplus of ILLEGAL firearms. on a daily basis, truck loads of illegal firearms are brought into the country from mostly our southern bordering country.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by WorkingClassMan
First let me say I'm Australian, I own guns (legally), & I opposed the gun laws in the form they were passed.

Secondly let me say that video was a load of sensationalist CRAP.

We can have rifles (centre & rim), shot guns & hand guns but we can't have semi auto, full auto, high capacity mags etc without a very good reason as most people don't need this.
We can't own them for purposes such as home defense/fighting the gov or just because it's cool, we can however have them for sport, hunting, & work needs farmer etc.
We do have to complete a full day course both theory & practical before applying for a license. We do have to have them locked away which IMO isn't a bad thing

We, Americans Can and should have guns for the purposes of home defense, and fighting the government. In fact, having guns to fight the government is protected under the U.S. Constitution. What are you going to do when a corrupt government tries to take away your rights to life and liberty? Nothing. Your gun is locked away. What are you going to do when a criminal breaks into your home at 2 am? Nothing. Your gun is locked away. Might as well not have any guns at all if they can't protect you.

You don't get it. They Own you. You are their slave, they control you. That's what the people in the video were upset about. They saw the Big Picture. You are not seeing it.

I have a semi auto 22 long pistol. I can fire 12 shots into a target as fast as I can pull the trigger - about a shot a second. It has a 6 inch refiled barrel so it penetrates great for a small caliber. If you don't have a semi auto and you have 2 or 3 attackers how are you going to stop them all in time? They will have semi auto and automatic weapons. You are outgunned and out manned with no ability to compensate.

My gun is legal to own where I live in a major city. I don't have to register it at all and I can openly carry it on my hip with no permit or papers. I don't believe in having a CCW license. No need for it. I'd rather everyone know I'm carrying. It's a better deterrent.

This is actually a topic I'm fairly passionate about, mainly cause I sit somewhere in the middle so get smashed by both sides, but if u keep it civil I would be happy to debate the issue with you.
Now I'll address your points apologies I don't know how to split quotes here.

I have guns for various reasons and 1 is home protection, I just can't put that as my reason but it's not hard to say for sport instead of I'm scarred at night.
Your constitution was written at a time when the American public had a chance against the Gov, that is now long obsolete.
What am I going to do when my gov comes for me? I'm going to be smart head for the bush and play gorilla on their ass.
What are you going to do when your gov comes for you? Answer would depend on the situation & how you act but my guess is die, they are not going to send constable plod after you if it has come to that.
What are you going to do when a crim comes for you at 2am, wake up half asleep grab ya 22 of the night stand & kill your wife or kid cause you haven't even woken up yet.
I can be up locked & loaded in under 60seconds if someone can get in my house in under that without me knowing he is there then I take my hat of to him.
Just to clarify I can own a semi auto hand gun I cant own a semi auto rifle, but I will wager my 12 gauge against your 22 any night for home defense, 12 shots in 12 seconds great but I only need 1 to clear the entire hall way or front entrance and I do not have to be so concerned with precision shooting especially since the circumstances would be less than optimum, I also don't have to be concerned with killing the neighbours in the process, unless I'm engaged in a more lengthy shoot out & then I keep a few 3" magnum slugs handy, still no need for precision even if I hit you in the arm your dead.

This is my country & I see perfectly clearly thanks, so once again that video was 80% crap at least, I am all for gun ownership within reason.
Due care needs to be taken, guns should be registered & only available to those who have a reason & can be bothered putting minor effort. Military spec weapons belong to the military period IMO.
Open or concealed carry is not something I ever want here & we are better off without it, to many ego's cruising the strip as it is thanks.

reply to post by WorkingClassMan


This is true, Australians are far from dis-armed.

You don't need a Semi or full auto for home protection or recreational hunting (who the hell would want to shoot deer with an AK anyway..!?!).

As fror the rise in crime rate, it is also true that most of the blame here is coming from immigrants ( I also would like to state that this is not a racial discrimination thing), but facts are facts.

The Melbourn and outer suburbs are flooded with Sudanese, Vietnamese, Hispanic and a whole host of other immigrant groups. They form gangs and terrorise the community. Drugs, Protection rackets, robbery, mugging, and it is all comming from these groups.

During the summer, Islamic gangs patrol the local beaches and assault young women in swimsuits (because they are asking for it). Crime is rife in AU and it has nothing to do with guns.

Originally posted by bellagirl
one of the main reasons many on here are stateing they wont give up their guns is so they can defend their country in a revolution. government control etc etc. doesnt this strike you as confusing ???.
you are a democracy. YOU vote in your government. YOU can vote your government out. isnt this why many of your soldiers have died on foreign battlegrounds and countries....to bring democracy to the world???

i cant imagine living in a country that is so frightened of their government. and how many complaining about the government actually voted in the last election ???

I personnely believe that the forefathers did gives us guns to protect against tyranny and oppression, but since everything is not one sided like u believe ill tell u this, i also like to hunt, target shoot, and hang with my friends at the range, i also believe my children's life are worth protecting at all costs in case a criminal decides to enter my home, and if someone is willing to enter a home and do criminal deeds, what else are they capable of doing to make sure they dont get in trouble, you might not be willing to protect your loved ones at all costs, but i am, and will do so till my last day, if there was no such thing as evil politicians and there was no such thing as criminals that have no remorse for there actions, i would totally agree with all the anti gunners, but we live in a real world with people that are evil, i suggest u open your eyes and look around

Originally posted by Pinke

Originally posted by WorkingClassMan

Hi WorkingClassMan.

I agree the video has a bit of sensationalism, but I don't agree with your conclusions exactly.

As you noted yourself, defense is not a valid reason to have a gun license in any state in Australia as far as I'm aware. That is the very definition of a disarmed state.

Is a big part of the issue. The noose is also getting tighter.

Depends what suburb you live in. My suburb has barbed wire roofing etc ... and various other issues.


I think that's the video's point? That it isn't because of guns that the crime rate is going up. Your points seem to support this?

If anything the rise in burglars could be directly attributed to the lack of a chance of being shot in the face. Home invasions are quite common in Australia.

Depends on your state actually. I've never completed such a course in WA for example. The exams are also incredibly easy to complete including quesitons that basically ask if you should point a gun at your own face.

You shouldn't have to lie to the government to own a firearm, and tax payers shouldn't be paying to support that lie.

This just seems to be a classic case of 1984 'freedom is slavery'. Lying to get a gun license is not a good position to be in. Illegally placing it under your pillow and developing a cover story in case the police notice isn't a good situation either. Especially since I've seen and heard of gun owners losing their license for 10 years over behaviour that isn't quite as irresponsible as sleeping with a loaded weapon. (ie leaving a shell casing in their gun safe)


I won't even get started on the beaucracy of some of the Australian states where front venting blank and airsoft weapons are harder to get into the country than a fully functioning glock 9.

I'll apoagise again I don't know how to quote properly here.

Definitions are for dictionaries, I legally own 2 shot guns, 3 riffles & used to have a hand gun. Please explain how I am not armed.

You can't fight the Gov in a conventional grab ya AR10 kind of way, you will die very quickly so what is the point of running round saying I need a gun to defend against the gov, If it is a foreign government then your gov will supply you with 1 free of charge if it's your own gov your f%$ked pure & simple.

Barb wire roofing? Do you live in an indig town or little Lebanon?, cause that is not an accurate portrait of 99% of Australia.
Would it be any diff if you had a semi or full automatic rifle instead of a shotgun or quality marksman rifle?
I don't know 1 Australian who is in fear of GUN WIELDING home invaders or 1 person who feels greater fear since the gun reforms came into effect.

I'm in qld & I thought all states had to complete a safety course first. (learn something new every day), yes my test was open book answers underlined for you and even if you got every question wrong pass or fail was at the leisure of the instructor. Attitude counted for more than knowledge or skills but the point was before anybody gets a gun and box of ammo in their hand they have at least held & fired a gun which is just logical IMO & takes ego out of it.
I remember letting a friend have a go of my double barrel once, I asked if he knew what he was doing he said yes, I got careless. His idea of knowing what he was doing was I have seen it on tv, have you ever seen someone let go with both barrels at full choke while holding the butt 1/2ft from their shoulder.
His ego took a beating that arvo but he learned a valuable lesson.

My views on crime going up didn't support the video at all, only on the premise they are up. They deemed the buy back as the sole cause of crime increase and ignored every other point on why it has risen & it had sweet FA to do with restricting guns. More to do with population increase, type of immigrants coming in, new non traditional crime gangs trying to stake a claim, economic troubles, and a big 1 is METH which is on the rise big time.

I don't have to lie to own a gun, I just don't go all redneck saying I need 1 so no one can come get me in the night, I like to target shoot and I like to kill feral animals simple, truthful & legal. Defending myself if the need arises is just a bonus card.
Home invasions are not that common at all and home invasions where people were threatened with a gun are very rare unless you are in the wrong business.

I don't sleep with a gun under my pillow I have a wife & 2 young children so my guns are where they should be under lock & key, I can however be ready to pull the trigger in under 60 seconds.
The cover story was just for idiots who say u would be dead before you unlocked the safe, & if you involved in an incident and told the cops you had it waiting under the pillow you are too stupid to own a gun.

The airsoft thing I agree with 100%. Easier to get a glock in, come on man.

Originally posted by Yazman

Originally posted by WorkingClassMan
First let me say I'm Australian, I own guns (legally), & I opposed the gun laws in the form they were passed.

Secondly let me say that video was a load of sensationalist CRAP.

Australians are not disarmed just restricted, you don't need an AK for home protection my gauge will do just fine, nor do I want my crack head neighbour killing my kids when he has a "moment" and thinks letting loose dozens of fmj rounds in a suburban area is a good thing.

WE ARE NOT LIVING IN FEAR, what a crock fencing ourselves in & installing high tech security lol lol & lol.
Like the poster above said, this is a very different place to the US so while I do think you need gun reform I think you need to be very careful how you go about it.
We also don't have another country that shares our border to flood us with illegal firearms, which is a big consideration IMO.

]

No, we are disarmed. The process and requirements for owning a gun are so lengthy and the criteria so difficult to satisfy that it isn't practical or really possible to own a gun in many parts of the country unless you're a farmer and then for some reason you just get a free pass.

I live in a major city (not a capital, and I'm not going to disclose which city I'm in for privacy reasons) and it is literally impossible to own a handgun in my city due to the requirements unless we satisfy the requirements which involve regular trips to a sporting club - very regular trips. The biggest problem is that there aren't any handgun clubs anywhere in my city or even on the outskirts, what this means is that unless you can afford to take the time and spend the money constantly driving many hours to another city on weekends then you can't own a handgun at all.

Not to mention the storage criteria that, in fact I know about a dozen other people like myself who can't satisfy this requirement since we can't make modifications to our homes which means we can't install the special types of safe they require, because they need to be bolted down and of a certain size that is prohibitively expensive, but the main reason is that I rent - hence why I'm not allowed modifications.

I'm just a #ing worker, I can't afford the expense of travelling to another city every weekend and buying a giant #ing safe.

Unless you're a farmer you are disarmed in this country. The government does everything in its power to prevent us from having weapons of any kind and it is completely #ing absurd the level they go to to ensure this, especially considering that all they did was create a black market that is unprecedented in size in this country.

2 shot guns 3 rifles and formerly a hand gun, How am I disarmed I can buy plenty more but why would I.
$100.00, 8hrs on a Saturday playing with guns & test you can fail yet still pass, a lockable storage unit that is bolted down & A quick police check then your GTG. (Disclaimer, in QLD) apparently in WA even easier.
Any easier & they would give you a hand gun when you open a bank account & an AK when you buy a car.

Why do you need a hand gun, they are basically pointless here apart from a bit of fun?
I am not a farmer & I am not disarmed FACT.
Farmers have an exemption for obvious reasons, when was the last time you needed to shoot something at work or had to rely on a gun to save your life?
I have never seen a black market gun in my life, this is one of the biggest reasons we are different than the USA we can't just take a quick trip to Mexico or Canada to fill the boot up.

Originally posted by mal1970
First off, easy there guys/gals/mates. I have NO animosity for Australia. I didn't post this to pick on you all.

I posted this as a kind of case study of what happens when a populace gives up their gun rights as a warning to the USA.

The video was from Aus so i picked out Aus facts from Gun Facts 6.0 to support the video. I could have just as easily singled out the UK or China or anywhere the populace has been more or less disarmed. It's the same everywhere.

It's a simple fact, when you criminalize guns, only criminals will have guns & that includes a criminal government. Try looking up the term democide & see the death rates. Over half a billion in the last century (650M IIRC)?

That won't happen here in the USA, at least not without a nasty fight. It's unimaginable to most of us to simply give up our single best ability to defend ourselves, our families, our property & our country... unimaginable.

You can fool yourself into thinking that since guns are outlawed in your country/city that you are safe from gun violence, but you won't fool the criminals pointing them at you.

It may take a while, but eventually the light bulb will go off that gun control isn't about safety.
It's about control... of you. Maybe it is an American thing & you won't ever understand it. For that i'm sorry.

The video was pure crap but I'll forgive you for that cause your not Australian but believe me it was crap except for yes we had a gun buy back & no it didn't eliminate gun crime but I doubt anyone with common sense thought it would, it did how ever give us extra safety from idiots with guns, and being as gun crime is not nor ever really has been a problem here that point is mute anyway.
What part of we still have guns don't people understand, the differences are we don't need a 50 cal to defend our home especially since if we did have to defend our home the chances of it being from someone with a gun are slim to none.

I'm going to apologize in advance if this seems harsh but it is reality, if they want your guns bad enough they will take them.
Their only decision will be whether to do it the easy way or the hard way which just depends on their agenda/situation but mark my words it would happen.
This is not aimed at you in particular but when push comes to shove how many are truly going to even try to stand against the gov, be honest after the first group of "terrorists" were made an example the rest of the Internet warriors will be crying for mummy. Ever had to wipe your friends brains out of your eyes? Think you will be yelling war cries of freedom or puking in the gutter?
Just random figures but I would say more than 50% wouldn't care if they gave their guns up & or couldn't be stuffed dieing for them, another 25% would quickly change their minds after seeing what happens to those who don't.
Out of the remaining 25% most would be untrained, undisciplined cannon fodder. I would give you 10 - 15% who could mount any real resistance & the only blood bath would be the American public.
Put any ego aside for a minute & tell me why you think I'm wrong. I do not believe it would go down like this though if it happens it will be piece by piece & through legislation.

"That won't happen here in the USA,"
Famous last words their buddy, never say never.


"You can fool yourself into thinking that since guns are outlawed in your country/city that you are safe from gun violence, but you won't fool the criminals pointing them at you."

Is this stuff brain washed into you guys, please point out how I am fooling myself, we don't have a gun problem I am a very well travelled person who lives in a middle to upper class area close to a big city & in 33 years I know of 2 people who have been effected by gun violence, 1 was me when a friend shot himself while we were out drinking at the beach the other was a guy who was in a store when it got robbed by a very apologetic guy. How many Americans can say that?


The only fools here are the ones who keep spreading lies like this:
"since guns are outlawed in your country/city" That is more sensationalistic crap than the vid posted and that is saying something.

It may take a while, but eventually the light bulb will go on that gun reform can make things safer.
It's about control... of you by the gun manufacturers who want to keep Americans scared. Maybe it is an American thing & you won't ever understand it. For that I'm sorry but this is not the wild west, we can compromise & make our country better.

reply to post by mal1970

"God created man Samuel Colt made them equal"

With or without guns crime and violence will still happen, the only thing banning guns will do is just make it more likely that when something does actually happen or go down, that the ones without the guns will be left at the mercy of those with. In fact i would say its in the interest of evil people or those who seek power over others to disarm and make there victims powerless to defend themselves.

I do not think you can even compare the US to Australia, not even because Australia is so much smaller in terms of land mass and population then the USA, but its in all a whole different thing. But given those numbers I would say that they are having way to much crime in comparison to the USA. In some cases the place literally sounds like a criminals paradise just waiting to happen, now how far would you put your trust in peoples good will when push really come to shove. Because given the opportunistic nature of humanity I think that if it really get nasty, it has been proven time and time again that those with the means and know how to protect themselves withing there personal means have a higher chance of surviving.

Basically those with guns usually win against those without guns, and the government and its laws are not deterrent to anything really.

In fact you could look back, and see that all those countries were the populous had no means to protect themselves usually end up used and abused, even by there own governments or ruling class/party, and in fact especially by there own governments or any despots that come to power. Now a days with things like laser guided missiles and tracking things from satellites in space and even taking out targets from space, I would say that the the personal handheld gun is not much of an issue, in the larger scope of things.

But seeing the reasons why most crimes happen they are still a deterrent to your everyday criminal or basically your "in case sh*t happens" tool. And I have seen how easy it is for some of the shadiest people I ever seen to get illegal firearms, so really banning guns is just wishful thinking on solving the problem of crime its in fact barely even on the same subject.

Originally posted by DocHolidaze

Originally posted by bellagirl
one of the main reasons many on here are stateing they wont give up their guns is so they can defend their country in a revolution. government control etc etc. doesnt this strike you as confusing ???.
you are a democracy. YOU vote in your government. YOU can vote your government out. isnt this why many of your soldiers have died on foreign battlegrounds and countries....to bring democracy to the world???

i cant imagine living in a country that is so frightened of their government. and how many complaining about the government actually voted in the last election ???

I personnely believe that the forefathers did gives us guns to protect against tyranny and oppression, but since everything is not one sided like u believe ill tell u this, i also like to hunt, target shoot, and hang with my friends at the range, i also believe my children's life are worth protecting at all costs in case a criminal decides to enter my home, and if someone is willing to enter a home and do criminal deeds, what else are they capable of doing to make sure they dont get in trouble, you might not be willing to protect your loved ones at all costs, but i am, and will do so till my last day, if there was no such thing as evil politicians and there was no such thing as criminals that have no remorse for there actions, i would totally agree with all the anti gunners, but we live in a real world with people that are evil, i suggest u open your eyes and look around

how dare you question me that i am not willing to protect my loved ones at all costs. i would fight till the death too protect my children.

i have also raised 3 children into their teens without a gun in the house and we are doing just fine thank you. we also sleep with the windows open in summer....can you do that ???.

we go out at night not afraid. we live in our home not afraid. we drive our car not afraid. can you say that ??? obviously not if your statement that you arm yourself for "just in case".

i think i will end with this. i think blind freddy can see this - we live in what must be close to paradise. yes we have problems, yes we have some crime, but we my friend have risen above it and choose to live our lives with love and freedom free from the feeling that we need to have a cold peice of killing steel called a gun strapped to us 24/7.

if the place that you live is not safe for your children to be raised with you feeling the need to have a gun..shouldnt you be putting more effort into finding a way to move from where you are to somewhere safer ???.

now how does it feel to have your parental responsibilities questioned......not nice is it buddy.

so you go ahead...keep your guns....i wont keep any....and i will just pray that you stay the hell away from my paradise.