Watch what happens when Guns are banned in Australia

Originally posted by spoogemonkey
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

There is a reason constitutions have clauses relating to their amendment: not all aspects are valid for eternity. Times change, interpretations change.. they are not written in stone. They are written and amended according to the opinion of the day, not past. Using an argument that was made in the making of the 2A does not necessarily imply its relevance.

Absolutely wrong. The 2nd Amendment was written with the future in mind, not the present. You obviously have no understanding of American History.

Originally posted by doobydoll
I am not American nor live there, and I wasn't with you Americans on owning guns to begin with, but considering the above, I have 100% changed my mind.

And I find your location interesting as it has, allegedly, one of the highest illegal handgun to population ratios in the UK. There's a reason why it's often referred to as Shottingham!

Originally posted by AntiNWO

Originally posted by spoogemonkey
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

...Using an argument that was made in the making of the 2A does not necessarily imply its relevance....

Absolutely wrong. The 2nd Amendment was written with the future in mind, not the present. You obviously have no understanding of American History.

Indeed. The 2A reflects, in my opinion, a principle that is all pervasive in our society - the person with the biggest stick is in charge. The 2A was a method of ensuring that the "people" always had a stick as big or bigger than the government. The restrictions to the 2A, by virtue of artificially skewing this balance, should be entirely unconstitutional. As harsh, dangerous and dramatic as it may sound, I support the idea that by virtue of the 2A civilians should have access to any form of weapon available to the government - though I could be swayed to compromise in relation to certain chemical and nuclear weapons!

reply to post by AntiNWO


I should've rephrased. My point was that constitutions (not just the US) can be changed according to popular opinion. By virtue of that, the people who wrote it had in mind that times change. It was in response to the idea that using an 18th century argument may not be relevant to today. Maybe it is.

edit: A good example being the 26A. The founding fathers didn't forsee that kids would get uppidy. Luckily however they did forsee that indeed times do change. Now I'm all for americans liking their guns, but to say they protect you from the govt. is a bit silly. Back in the day though, it wasn't silly. Americans like guns, that's not a problem, and many feel they need one because 'Bob' over there has one. but I just don't buy the idea that when someone legally buys a gun in the US, they're thinking about how it will protect them from the state. It's to protect themselves against bob.

reply to post by EvillerBob


Well said. I agree on all points and would just add that our government also knows that what you've said is true, and are doing everything they can, as quickly as they can, to undermine our 2nd Amendment rights because without them, they would have already had their "New World Order".

reply to post by spoogemonkey


There are over 300 million guns in the hands of civilians in the U.S. Many of those are owned by military trained people as well as current and former law enforcement. If you think that doesn't help keep tyranny at bay, then we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue. As I stated above, I am convinced that without private ownership of guns this country would have already become a fascist dictatorship. The politicians in Washington have proven over and over that they will do whatever it takes to stay in power, and it's not below them to completely trash the U.S. Constitution if they thought they could get away with it.

I really hope it never comes to violent revolution in this country because I agree with you that the government would ultimately win, however it would be a very long, bloody guerrilla war which would completely destroy our infrastructure.

As you stated, the Constitution can be changed, however the majority of the American people do not want the 2nd Amendment changed, so it has not been. And the way the fascists in government are pushing harder and harder down on us, I suspect that even more people would not feel safe if it were.

For the record, my gun is mainly for sport target shooting, and secondly for self-defense against the bad guys with weapons, be they guns, knives, or baseball bats.

reply to post by bellagirl


I appreciate the fact that you can debate without getting personnel, but what is this existence? A global society made up of individuals. If each individual did not have the ability to get personnel we would be nothing but lifeless drones. Just as I Love my children, I know u Love yours, and it is part of what makes us individuals in this global society(not that others don't love there children, but as u know no one will ever love OUR children as we do.) The ones trying to pass laws that take away freedom do not love our children as we do, and doesn't care who dies in order to advance there agenda. Also to a criminal, my life, your life, and are children life's mean nothing. The only thing that matters to them is there agenda, and to a criminal with half a brain and some start up cash, once guns are band, a whole new market has opened up and who do they sell guns to? Other criminals. What do criminals need guns for? To kill. steal rape and instill fear, please think again before you spread a message that will surely lead to death and oppression.

reply to post by DocHolidaze




There is one thing i fully understand. we come from two COMPLETELY different places. if you ask any australian im sure they would agree that crime comes way down the list of our worries. over here, you will have a much greater chance of coming across crime if you are involved in it. little chance if you are not.

We honestly dont live with the fear of home invasions etc. when im home alone my doors are not locked. i can walk home from the pub at 2am and not worry all that much. we do have a problem with assaults but that is mainly if you are young, drunk and at the pub or club. i dont think it is a untruth to say that with the rise in immigration there has been a rise in level of violence with crime.

just one last thing......us aussie women are pretty strong minded and tough sheillas. thats one of the problems we have encountered with many middle eastern male immigrants. they dont get us. we say what we want, do what we want, go where we want and wear what we want. maybe thats why i took such offence at your comments.

reply to post by bellagirl


what is population were u live, i grew up in a small population and everything is as u describe, so we are not completely different. i now live in a higher population area were the economy is going down hill, there for crime goes up, and i will protect my family with all resources available, since criminals will also use all resources available. and when the gov gets there way they will use there guns to try and create a society were we we work to die and are not free as we once were, in a world of guns, there will always be gun deaths, why give the bad guys the advantage?

Originally posted by EvillerBob

Originally posted by doobydoll
I am not American nor live there, and I wasn't with you Americans on owning guns to begin with, but considering the above, I have 100% changed my mind.

And I find your location interesting as it has, allegedly, one of the highest illegal handgun to population ratios in the UK. There's a reason why it's often referred to as Shottingham!

Yes I've heard that. I don't possess a gun myself, legal or illegal. St Annes in Nottingham is jam-packed with drug gangs, some of them have guns. And despite the 'shottingham' tag, I honestly have never even seen a real gun ever in my life, only on tv.

The thing about the 'illegal handgun to population ratio's', who deduces those ratio's and how? How do they know how many 'illegal' handguns there are in any population? Does this ratio suggest that it is known how many illegal guns there are in circulation, and where they are? Or is it a guess?

Originally posted by doobydoll
The thing about the 'illegal handgun to population ratio's', who deduces those ratio's and how? How do they know how many 'illegal' handguns there are in any population? Does this ratio suggest that it is known how many illegal guns there are in circulation, and where they are? Or is it a guess?

Illegal handguns are tracked in a number of ways. Remember, for gangs (there are five main ones operating in Notts by the way) the power of a firearm lies in the implicit threat. The other guys have to know you have access to one and know you will use it. That means you have to get the information out into the community, which means it will filter its way back to the police. The problem is sorting out what is true and what is exaggeration. Gang members are also stupid and like to show off on youtube

A few years back a man was caught converting MAC10 machine pistols. We know how many he converted, we know how many we recovered. We didn't recover very many of them, unfortunately, so there are still about 38 of them floating around. They have been used in a few high profile shootings including a police officer.

Originally posted by spoogemonkey
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

All very well and good, and I agree with you, except that does cast doubt on the need for the 2A, which is my point. If there will never be a dictatorship, then how is an argument defending the 2A on the basis of it's initial purpose a valid one? According to you, there won't be tyranny as the instrument (military) sides with the people anyway. Yet here we are, still hearing about 18th century reasoning (to stop the Govt. from tyranny).

It's all good that some americans like the right to carry guns, but surely you must see the contradiction?

It is not so much the fact that we can carry weapons and in the U.S. a person without a Criminal Record can obtain a Permit to carry a CONCEALED WEAPON and in fact...the Police Chiefs of most towns and cities ask if we carry it concealed even though it is lawful to walk down a city street with a Handgun strapped to your waist as long as you have a permit.

Anyways...it is not so much the reality of having a Weapon as ones RIGHT TO OWN A WEAPON OR FIREARM as you will find many...myself included...people both Men and MANY WOMEN who are Hunters and have Compound Bows as well as for the experts...Recurve Bows.

Any Government that will not allow the Population of it's own people to own a Gun or Bow is treating that Population like they are CHILDREN! We in the U.S. are not treated as Children. What's next for Australia? Will you have to wear ARM FLOATS when you get in the Swimming Pool?

Split Infinity

Originally posted by EvillerBob

Originally posted by SplitInfinityAlso...our Police Force would never allow the Massive Sports and Anarchist Rioting as occurs in your country.

Really?

Apart from the Seattle Riots in 1999. $20 million USD of riot damage. And the NY Blackout of 1977 - $300 million USD of riot damage. And the 2001 Cincinnati Riots (caused by the same thing as the London Riots last year), the 1967 Detroit riots that lasted nearly a week, the 1968 Chicago riots... and the... and the... and the...

I guess the LA riots were just a vicious rumour? More than a thousand buildings weren't destroyed, more than $1 billion USD worth od damage wasn't done?

This is true...but it is small in percentage to Riots in other Countries. You can never completely stop things like this from happening...but you can decrease the probability. Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
This is true...but it is small in percentage to Riots in other Countries. You can never completely stop things like this from happening...but you can decrease the probability. Split Infinity

A good example for you to use would be the korean shopkeepers during the LA riots. They were able to protect their community in the middle of a very dangerous time for the city. They couldn't stop the riot but they could stop the riot affecting them.

Originally posted by EvillerBob

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
This is true...but it is small in percentage to Riots in other Countries. You can never completely stop things like this from happening...but you can decrease the probability. Split Infinity

A good example for you to use would be the korean shopkeepers during the LA riots. They were able to protect their community in the middle of a very dangerous time for the city. They couldn't stop the riot but they could stop the riot affecting them.

BINGO! That is it! Without the means to protect yourself....your are subject to the whims of others! The idea that some people...ESPECIALLY IN EUROPE....have that a Government that does not allow their people to own GUNS is a Good Idea have taken a SIP FROM THE COOL AID CUP! Think about this...many Governments have actually CONVINCED THEIR PEOPLE that only the GOVERNMENT should have the right to have GUNS and that the people will be safer if only CRIMINALS have GUNS!

This is made even more stupid by those who basically say to us...people in the United States...HEY LOOK! I AM DEFENSELESS! I CANNOT STOP ANYONE BIGGER THAN ME WITH A PLASTIC SPORK FROM MUGGING ME OR RAPING MY SPOUSE OR KIDNAPPING MY CHILD! HOORAY FOR ME AND THOSE LIKE ME BECAUSE WE ARE PROGRESSIVE AND THANK GOD WE DON'T HAVE FREEDOMS LIKE PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES!

This type of thought is INSANE! If I were an AUSSIE I would be REALLY PISSED OFF! I mean...do you REALLY want to leave the responsibility of defending your Wife and Kids or if a Woman...your Husband and Kids to the response time if making a Phone Call is even possible...to the POLICE? In the United States...if someone breaks into your home and you are fearful for your life or lives of your family...IT IS COMPLETELY LEGAL TO SHOOT A PERSON INVADING YOUR HOME DEAD! No charges will be filed against you. The person does not have to have a Gun or Knife or even a Plastic Spork in their hands...if they break in while you are in your home and you tell the Police...I was Fearful for my Families and my LIFE. CASE CLOSED!

Since my town is a place where EVERYONE OWNS A WEAPON...we tend to leave our doors and windows unlocked. I could leave the keys in one of my Vehicles and have the engine RUNNING...and not worry as I went into a store for a Coffee in the Winter when it is very cold in Massachusetts and I am defrosting my vehicle with the heater.

Communities like mine where a KID at the age of 11 takes part in the Local Police Stations Firearm Safety Course which they do every year as Moms and Dads bring their Sons and Daughters to the station in order to take a several day course on Firearms as the KIDS and ADULTS are taught EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT HANDGUNS, RIFLES, SHOTGUNS as well as how to treat every weapon as if it was LOADED whether it is or not and explain all the different ways they can be loaded, unloaded, cleaned, the guns Safety location, how to properly stand when firing the weapon, how to hold it when Hunting or Transporting or Showing a Weapon. They Teach everything about Firearms and thus we don't have KIDS getting accidentally SHOT because they found a GUN and are showing it to their friends and don't treat the weapon with RESPECT or SHOOT their friend because they didn't know how to check if it was LOADED! The more people know and understand about anything that is potentially FATAL...the safer they will be.

To my knowledge...there has not been a Gun Related Accidental Fatality in my town....ever! This program has been going on before they even had a Police Station and a Firearm safety course was held in the GRANGE BUILDING back in the 1800's.

To think you are safe because people are not allowed to have GUNS is like saying...I am safer because people in my country can't own a KNIFE! Or...in my country...People are not allowed to hold a ROCK OR THROW IT!

I feel sad for those who do not get it. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Well that's my point Split. That they're to protect you from Bob and a have a bit of fun at the range / hunting. tbh If I were living in the US, I'd probably pick up a gun too, but that's because all the Bobs over there have guns. There's just no need for them here in normal city living.

Now as to whether we need floaties, turns out over 35% of americans can't swim!

reply to post by spoogemonkey

35%...REALLY? Now that PISSES ME OFF since I used to teach inner city youths how to swim! LOL!
NO KIDDING! Split Infinity

reply to post by spoogemonkey


35 percent of Americans dont give a sh*t about there kids and or those that cant swim never had a parent to teach them one way or another, there is a place to swim everywhere u go in America indoor or out, i have one public pool in my place and my 5 year old can swim because i took time to teach her(at the same pool i see older kids wearing a lifevest because there parents see it easier to put a lifevest on than actully teach there kids), i know swimming is a skill that can save her life and possibly others, not to mention allow one to be physically active and also be fun all around, don't make judgments based on people that hadhave poor parents and or didn't have parents to teach them

btw im not taking into account of the children and adults that physicly are unable to swim, just as u shouldn't.

Originally posted by AntiNWO

Absolutely wrong. The 2nd Amendment was written with the future in mind, not the present. You obviously have no understanding of American History.

So were the founders idiots?
Or were they setting up the American people for a huge fall?
Which was it?

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
btw im not taking into account of the children and adults that physicly are unable to swim, just as u shouldn't.

edit on 12-8-2012 by DocHolidaze because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-8-2012 by DocHolidaze because: (no reason given)

There is no lake or pond or pool near me.
In 40 years I have not seen these vast swimming holes you speak of.
Are you sure you have been everywhere in the US?
Where did you get 35% from?
I am thinking maybe you just wrote random things that sounded good but are based solely in your imagination.