Why Haven't You Enlisted?

Originally posted by Apollyon
Not all killing is is chasing and melee with prey. Look at preditors like the ant lion or trapdoor spider or even the tarantula hawk, they are all killers but not in the way you would describe .

that is quite true that not all killing is the chase and the hunt. But then again all of the creatures you mentions kill for a very specific reason. Food and Survival. We also kill, harvist meats, hunt meats through the use of tools, traps, etc.

We as beings are cappable of killing, there is no doubt there. but it is inaccurate to say that we have evolved to kill the ability is not indicitave of our evolution, if anything it would be in spite of evolution.

Now as for our history of killing.. you may have killed your god, but do not put that mindset on all of us. I for one think that Christianity and the bible is nothing more than a collection of myths and stories stolen from other world religions used to raise a person who was killed to a diafied state and used this system of beliefs to install fear and controle to the masses.

Wraith

Well, GradyPhilpott, I did and now 25 years later, I'm retiring...

As for Drfunk, you'd have a lot more credability if you weren't using an F-111 as an avatar...

Originally posted by Sargon of Agade
Well, GradyPhilpott, I did and now 25 years later, I'm retiring...

Good for you, Sargon. I wasn't cut out for a career in the military, but I have always had great admiration for the "lifers." Because of the career men, there will always be a place for those of us who are only passing through.

[edit on 04/10/13 by GradyPhilpott]

you've been awash in culturation since day one. You were totaly programed ...look at terrorists do you think that they are all psychos ?
Or are they a product of ther enviroment and culture?

Do you think Mohammed Atta or Osama loves his mother ?

It is purely a cultural thing.

Originally posted by Damned

Originally posted by Apollyon
That is a fuction of society not biology if there was a collapse to a neo stone age would not this happen again? If it could then we are still the rapists at heart only controlled and focused my the social mores around us.

I don't believe so. If it did happen, it would only be people like you doing the raping and killing. It's our minds that tell us it's wrong. Our minds have created society. Given free reign, I wouldn't abuse anyone any more than I normally do.

It's just not in me. Killing and/or violating people is something more driven by anger, IMO, not biology. All kids in grade school were not bullies, constantly trying to hurt others. Only the angry kids do that. You have to have a serious hatred in order to do heinous things without feeling guilt. This is a major difference between people, IMO. Some are still primates, who can't figure out how to do anything except react on the most basic emotional level. Others think and respond accordingly. While you can teach people manners or rules, you really can't teach them true morals, IMO. Nobody ever had to tell me that killing is wrong. It's something I always knew for myself.

[edit on 13-10-2004 by Damned]

Man has a talent for killing our history is written in blood any invetion is immidatly converted to a weapon. The basic games child play cops+robbers etc killing every man does is about killing. We may one day evolve past this but not today. It is amuch in our nature as breathing.

Originally posted by wraith30

Originally posted by Apollyon
Not all killing is is chasing and melee with prey. Look at preditors like the ant lion or trapdoor spider or even the tarantula hawk, they are all killers but not in the way you would describe .

that is quite true that not all killing is the chase and the hunt. But then again all of the creatures you mentions kill for a very specific reason. Food and Survival. We also kill, harvist meats, hunt meats through the use of tools, traps, etc.

We as beings are cappable of killing, there is no doubt there. but it is inaccurate to say that we have evolved to kill the ability is not indicitave of our evolution, if anything it would be in spite of evolution.

Now as for our history of killing.. you may have killed your god, but do not put that mindset on all of us. I for one think that Christianity and the bible is nothing more than a collection of myths and stories stolen from other world religions used to raise a person who was killed to a diafied state and used this system of beliefs to install fear and controle to the masses.

Wraith

Please. This is a discussion of enlistment into to the armed service during a time of national crisis, not the nature of man. An interesting piece on this topic can be found in the play by Peter Weiss, "The Persecution and Assassination of Jean-Paul Marat as Performed by the Inmates of the Asylum of Charenton Under the Direction of the Marquis de Sade," subtitled "Conversation Concerning Life and Death." I suggest that everyone read this play at some time during their lives.

[edit on 04/10/13 by GradyPhilpott]

[edit on 04/10/14 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by Apollyon
you've been awash in culturation since day one. You were totaly programed ...look at terrorists do you think that they are all psychos ?
Or are they a product of ther enviroment and culture?

Do you think Mohammed Atta or Osama loves his mother ?

It is purely a cultural thing.

Sure, but my programming was quite a bit different than most. I was raised in the 70's hippy revolution, near Berkeley. I wasn't told what to believe, but shown real life examples of good people, who didn't kill anyone. Sure, there were gangs and criminals back then too, and I met my fair share of dangerous individuals. The area I grew up in was not all "peace and love", so I had plenty of opportunities to go the opposite way, as many did.
It's like being raised on a farm, perhaps. People who are raised on farms become immune to the horrors of killing animals, among other gross chores. But I still believe that it takes a very angry person to want to kill people. There is a difference between those who weren't raised around killing and still end up killing, and those who were actually raised around killing. Most of the time, unless you're either very angry, hateful, or just mentally ill, you're not going to kill anyone...programming or not. It is a choice, for most. It's not some biological instinct that we have to succumb to.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Please. This is a discussion of enlistment into to the armed service during a time of national crisis, not the nature of man. An interesting piece on this topic can be found in the play by Peter Weiss, "'The Persecution of Jean Paul Marat,' under the direction of the Marquis de Sade, as performed by the inmates of the Asylum of Charenton," subtitled "Conversation Concerning Life and Death." I suggest that everyone read this play at some time during their lives.

[edit on 04/10/13 by GradyPhilpott]

are you kidding me?!? I'm sorry, personal opinion, but That was about a horrible piece of written crap in reguards to a look into humanity as was Checkov's 'The Seagull'

I would have to say that looking into human nature you should take a look at "no Exit" "Death of a salesman"(eventhough I an not a huge fan of the play itself)

Anyway.. to the orriginal topic.. I am afraid I simply do not agree with the incarnation of our military and who is leading it. I could not be apart of it. \

Wraith

you just made my case for me.

Originally posted by Damned

Originally posted by Apollyon
you've been awash in culturation since day one. You were totaly programed ...look at terrorists do you think that they are all psychos ?
Or are they a product of ther enviroment and culture?

Do you think Mohammed Atta or Osama loves his mother ?

It is purely a cultural thing.

Sure, but my programming was quite a bit different than most. I was raised in the 70's hippy revolution, near Berkeley. I wasn't told what to believe, but shown real life examples of good people, who didn't kill anyone. Sure, there were gangs and criminals back then too, and I met my fair share of dangerous individuals. The area I grew up in was not all "peace and love", so I had plenty of opportunities to go the opposite way, as many did.
It's like being raised on a farm, perhaps. People who are raised on farms become immune to the horrors of killing animals, among other gross chores. But I still believe that it takes a very angry person to want to kill people. There is a difference between those who weren't raised around killing and still end up killing, and those who were actually raised around killing. Most of the time, unless you're either very angry, hateful, or just mentally ill, you're not going to kill anyone...programming or not. It is a choice, for most. It's not some biological instinct that we have to succumb to.

Originally posted by Apollyon
First off excellent reply but you sort of missed my point, or perhaps I did not make it clearly enough. The point I was trying to make is this there are many in America that have the attitude of a spoiled teenager with wealthy parents who will complain loudly about their parents behind their back and while driving their car but are only too happy to accept money and privilege that they have not earned nor aren't grateful for. I understand full well that government exists to serve the people but is there no reciprocal responsibility, especially since in effect WE are the government aren't we responsible to each other ? I loathe that take without respect for what they been given and without gratitude. I would think it a greater return if somebody were to spend 4 years willingly teaching inner city kids to read than unwilling serving in the military, wouldn't you? The point is the return good citizenship is a dynamic between government and governed you can't always take you must also give.

I agree with you fully here, and I'm glad you have brought up the point. Acts which might be described as "being a good citizen" are important to society. My arguement has been against the implication (not necessarily yours) that military service is a moral obligation in order for one to say that he gives as much as he recieves from society. If the question were not "Why haven't you enlisted?", but "What have you done for society today?" I would have been much harder pressed to find a problem in it, unless of course I chose (as you mention later in your post) only to partake in our society on the minimal level.
I will mention however that service need not be to the government, nor need it be logged or measured. The means through which civic virtue can be shown are vast, and I doubt they could be measured and counted towards a quota. All I can say is that I am civil with my fellow citizens and treat them as my fellows (although I do not consider this a patriotic virtue so much as a human one- I'd like to think I'd be as civil with Frenchmen.)

I have been fortunate to recieve a great many things which are in no way promised as part of my share in the common good, and I am all to happy to share it. Just for example, I was shown how to get into a labor union and am recieving good training for it- so i tell people how they can get in, I drive co-workers who dont have cars, and I loan tools or answer questions for less experienced apprentices. This is a very narrow example to be sure, but most of us get extras from society (not always the government) and should reasonably try to contribute to society in what ways they can so that the cycle continues.

I ask you to momentarily disown belief or disbelief in the above statement and simply answer a proposition of logic. (If you are unfamiliar with such propositions, the object is for you to show how the statement I make is illogical as I have phrased it, without respect to your personal beliefs.)
IF those who have never served in the military can make no moral judgment against military service, THEN those who have never stolen can make no moral judgment against thievery.

No I see where you are going with this but you slightly miss my point, I'm saying unless you have stolen you can't make a moral judgment against the thief not against theft as a concept, only the thief knows WHY he stole ( to feed his hunger kids or for the joy of stealing etc).

Good answer, and I can agree in part. I would argue that so long as there is no evidence as to the motive, then not even someone who has stolen can judge the motives of another thief. For example one who has stolen out of necessity would find his experience irrelevant when examining the case of one who stole for fun.
Here's the rub: The meat of this issue is not the morality of individual soldiers but the makeup of the military as a whole. If there are sufficient "dark motives" for enlistment, then it can be reasonably concluded that the military will contain a number of people who enlisted for those reasons. When considering the morality of enlistment, one must consider that those people of dark motives will be part of the culture surrounding and influencing him. Although I have perhaps missed the point of your statement, I believe I have made a valid point on the implications of military service, which is relevant to this thread's topic.

No, the point I'm trying to make and perhaps failing to is, disagree with the policies not the office or country. Instead of AMERICA SUCKS how about America is an great country who's current policies SUCK.

Maybe i'll go back and look at my previous posts. I thought that was exactly what I was saying. I oppose certain policies through my words and through my vote, but I keep it civil because I support America and the core ideas on which America is built.
I'm not saying America sucks. I'm just saying that I dont think America necessarily should make it policy to kick butt- at least not without weighing out exactly what we wish to do and exactly how we wish to do it and pay for it.
I pointed out that the logical end of your arguement is that I should revolt. Obviously this does not apply if you realize that I do not think America sucks, and that I do not believe I have said anything which should have been interpreted as attacking America instead of political ideas being pressed on America at this time. However -IF- somebody actually thinks America sucks, it really does follow that they are declaring themselves enemies of America, and should 1. Work to resolve the grievance 2. Attempt to have their way by force. 3. Walk away (leave), because that's what you do with an enemy.

It may seem like simple semantics but it is not. The zeitgeist seems to be one of trashing America and I'm sick of it especially from people who really don't mean to but are too lazy or to inarticulate to accurately express their dissatisfaction. Unless of course they think America does suck. Then they should leave as their dissatisfaction is with the concept of America as a whole and not with the current vagaries of the political climate, or occupant of the White House.

I do not believe that there is an unpatriotic zeitgeist. I do agree that there may -seem- to be one due to the vitriolic politics of this time. There are a lot of people screaming at the top of their lungs about their discontent with various things- especially about Bush- without articulating their points or defending them very well. In fact, this is a big part of what keeps me republican despite my displeasure with so many things: the opposition screams so much and says so little that they come across as being hateful people with no solution to offer.
I just hope that I somehow have not fallen into the "lazy and inarticulate" catagory of which you speak. If I have been understood as attacking American values rather than policy, I would be concerned that certain policies have been successfully disguised as fundamental American values when they are not. If this is the case, i consider it a very dire consequence of election-year politics run amok.

Am I a little clearer?

You are CRYSTALINE and you and I are pretty close to communicating on the same frequency now.
The concern I still have is that you may interpret attacks on policy as attacks on America, and you may interpret refusal to contribute to the furtherance of individual policies as refusal to contribute to America at all.

I'll try to finish up reading this thread later... hope I haven't missed anything important.

Originally posted by wraith30
I would have to say that looking into human nature you should take a look at "no Exit" "Death of a salesman"(eventhough I an not a huge fan of the play itself)

I've read both these works and I've seen a production of "Salesman." Their both great plays, but nowhere as profound as Marat/Sade. I would really suggest that you give it another try.


www.amazon.com...


[edit on 04/10/14 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by wraith30
I would have to say that looking into human nature you should take a look at "no Exit" "Death of a salesman"(eventhough I an not a huge fan of the play itself)

I've read both these works and I've seen a production of "Salesman." Their both great plays, but nowhere as profound as Marat/Sade. I would really suggest that you give it another try.


www.amazon.com...


[edit on 04/10/14 by GradyPhilpott]

This should probibly be taken off topic but.. I'm a theater major, focus in perfomance and later in stage and costume design. (Yea i know a theater major in the tech field.. who woulda guessed) I spent a good portion of a semester on Marat/Sade. as well as Beckett, Thomis Kidd and his influence on Hamlet, and Checkov to name a few. I simply did not like Marat/Sade and I cant exaclty put my figner on it why. I knwo like Chekov becasue apparetly it is easy to translate English to Russian but for some odd reason you can't translate Russian to English and I am sure I am missing alot in his work. I liked Beckett's godot but don't like his other work like Endgame. I guess ultimatly when it comes to theater and the nature of mankind and to be honest classic plays I realy enjoy woudl be the truely classicilcal work. Euripidies, Aeschelus, Homer... I think their work was innatly about the nature of man as reflected by not only man but the gods, thus reenforcing the sence of absolute nature... for if the gods cannot get past things such as revenge and jellousy.. what chance do we have?

Wraith

Cool, most of my vitriol was not really meant for you but for the "slacker Bush blows" types whom are too lazy to form a reasoned opinion let alone a reasoned arguement about politics or anything else for that matter and resort to jingoism and name calling.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

You are CRYSTALINE and you and I are pretty close to communicating on the same frequency now.
The concern I still have is that you may interpret attacks on policy as attacks on America, and you may interpret refusal to contribute to the furtherance of individual policies as refusal to contribute to America at all.

I'll try to finish up reading this thread later... hope I haven't missed anything important.

Originally posted by Apollyon
you just made my case for me.

I disagree. Your case states that humans will kill...that they're biologically programmed to do so, as if it's a genetic thing. How does that make your case if you agree with me that it's a social aspect that is more the cause of murderous behavior? I think you just made my case for me.

Sheesh . . .

All I said was that I believe and HOPE humans will evolve past killing (as in war against themselves/humans) . . . If they do not, then they/you are already dead! There is no point for human life to continue on your planet if you do not evolve and get past this . . .

what I said was (and perhaps I wasn't clear so I apologize) "The nature of man is to kill socialisation and aculturation keeps this in check with out social pressure man wouls return to being a killer" to paraphrase myself.

Originally posted by Damned

Originally posted by Apollyon
you just made my case for me.

I disagree. Your case states that humans will kill...that they're biologically programmed to do so, as if it's a genetic thing. How does that make your case if you agree with me that it's a social aspect that is more the cause of murderous behavior? I think you just made my case for me.

Originally posted by wraith30

Originally posted by Apollyon
Not all killing is is chasing and melee with prey. Look at preditors like the ant lion or trapdoor spider or even the tarantula hawk, they are all killers but not in the way you would describe .

We as beings are cappable of killing, there is no doubt there. but it is inaccurate to say that we have evolved to kill the ability is not indicitave of our evolution, if anything it would be in spite of evolution.

Wraith

like that

Originally posted by Apollyon
you've been awash in culturation since day one. You were totaly programed ...look at terrorists do you think that they are all psychos ?
Or are they a product of ther enviroment and culture?

i totally agree with this. we are indoctrinated from birth. what we are swimming in, though, is something that only media ecologists generally bother to understand.
(if grady can talk about plays, i'm sure we can talk about the nature of man as a reason to enlist or not enlist. it truly is the core of the question)
people are so numbed by the assault of advertising, that they wish to retrieve a gentler time of simplicity. we just want someone to point to a bad guy that can represent all that is unsure and lacking in our lives. a goat, as it were.
what most people don't understand is that we are living at light speed. a completely networked sattelite environment which is run by nonexistant discorporate entities. mclhuhan called this entity, 'the great electrical engineer', whom he also identified with satan. i would agree that there is nothing so 'antichrist' as the effects of the international syndicate.

if you want to kill, and think it is normal, it is because you have been programmed to believe it. if you have gone to war, and come back knowing it was a crock(as the majority of 'nam vets did), then you have had the opportunity to break this programming. that's the hard way. people have something called a conscience which is the one and only moral guide there is. if you felt ANY remorse about murdering other humans, then you have a conscience. if you were programmed to think the enemy is less than human, then you're conscience is blocked by a mental feedback loop.
it is also possible to break your programming by cross referencing the programming of the past, with the programming of the present, or the programming of different geographical areas with your area. it is NOT possible to wallow in the mainstream media lies and propaganda, and retain any kind of balanced sense of truth.

man builds tools as an extension of himself to improve his chances of survival.
technology that we build has it's own agenda. people don't realise that technology is effectively alive.
man's tools of mutual assured destruction show an INSANE attitude towards survival.
the power of control of these weapons of mass insanity, is truly in the hands of an algorithm of information exchange that is occurring in a nonexistant virtual space(or an existant sphere, if you include earth and her sattelite enviroment, right down to the gluons and quarks).
killing is for weakminded cowards. sorry. we have bigger problems than terrorists.
the mechanical corporate disincarnate entity. the insanity of it is as real as the matrix. we didn't have to enter a virtual world to be controlled by 'the architect'. our own world has become virtual due the speed at which we're living.

some insanity:
privatised WATER supply.
only GMO monsanto seeds are LEGAL for crops.
the government works in NEAR COMPLETE SECRECY.
enough fire power to kill everybody on earth a thousand times over.
incarceration without trial.
'sneek' searches.
wars started on flimsy information.
land mines that look exactly the same as food packets.
buzzwords used to rule.
war on a concept or a noun.
death by 'friendly fire'
'preemptive strike'

and here's the big one>>>>>>
systemised diversion of all individual responsibility into a black hole of systems.
welcome to the machine.

[edit on 14-10-2004 by billybob]

To quote that Coen brothers classic "Oh Brother Where Art Thou" "That don't make no sense!"

Originally posted by fledgling666

Originally posted by wraith30

Originally posted by Apollyon
Not all killing is is chasing and melee with prey. Look at preditors like the ant lion or trapdoor spider or even the tarantula hawk, they are all killers but not in the way you would describe .

We as beings are cappable of killing, there is no doubt there. but it is inaccurate to say that we have evolved to kill the ability is not indicitave of our evolution, if anything it would be in spite of evolution.

Wraith

like that

Blah blah blah.

Every soldier is a hero? Wha? Only Americans or every country's?

In WWII, were German soldiers heroes for doing what they were told?

In Vietnam, were the VC's heroes for defending their country and putting their lives on the line?


Soldiers are paid to fight and die, and that's what they do. Some are heroes, some are murderers.

I don't look up to military folk, sorry to say. Sure it's a fine thing to say that you're defending your country, but especially in the USA, that's a total lie. Defend your country by getting killed in the Middle East.

Soldiers FOLLOW orders from those above them. They are expected to do so unquestioningly, and this is done by breaking their wills through basic training and through constant stress. Some heroes.

My father fought in Korea, my grandfather fought in WWI (!), NEITHER of them looked back on their service without grief and regret mingled with pride.