Waco Texas, What happened there in 1993? Documentary from 2011 explains the horrible incident..

4. Last and by far most damning, the FBI went in because they claimed children were in danger. For the sake of argument, Ill assume they didnt start the fires or shoot at people. What they did do was unleash and ungodly amount of tear gas that several experts agreed would have been enough to kill small children, acting as strychtnine in such amounts and causing horrible deaths from the childrens muscles convulsiing so hard it broke their bones. Even if it wouldn't have killed the children, it would have been tortuous to them.

So think about this. In order to protect children, our government decided to torture them. When asked about this at the press conference, the FBI spokesman said that they thought if they hurt the children, the parents would have let them go. Now keep in mind, they were saying all along Koresh was insane and brainwashed his followers. So why decide to torture children on the all the sudden chance the Davidians would act rationally.

Think about how frightening and painful the last moments for those innocent children must have been. I dont care if Koresh and every adult in that place was a psycho, more than 20 children tortured and killed by our government.

And no one punished in the ensuing investigation. It makes me physically ill to think about.

Originally posted by Grambler
4. Last and by far most damning, the FBI went in because they claimed children were in danger. For the sake of argument, Ill assume they didnt start the fires or shoot at people. What they did do was unleash and ungodly amount of tear gas that several experts agreed would have been enough to kill small children, acting as strychtnine in such amounts and causing horrible deaths from the childrens muscles convulsiing so hard it broke their bones. Even if it wouldn't have killed the children, it would have been tortuous to them.

So think about this. In order to protect children, our government decided to torture them. When asked about this at the press conference, the FBI spokesman said that they thought if they hurt the children, the parents would have let them go. Now keep in mind, they were saying all along Koresh was insane and brainwashed his followers. So why decide to torture children on the all the sudden chance the Davidians would act rationally.

Think about how frightening and painful the last moments for those innocent children must have been. I dont care if Koresh and every adult in that place was a psycho, more than 20 children tortured and killed by our government.

And no one punished in the ensuing investigation. It makes me physically ill to think about.

edit on 30-7-2012 by Grambler because: (no reason given)

These crimes and others that appear to happen need to be cleaned up by the FBI or we will split at the seams and have another civil war. OF WHICH I think certain elites, who appear to be pushing for a one world gov, are wishing to happen so they can have the excuse to kill any defenders of the constitution and enslave the rest of the planet that we have shown their path to freedom from their overlords. The USA represents hope for those who are downtrodden and it sure looks like, little by little, someone has wrested power away from the people and appear to me to putting in tyrannical sycophants to do their bidding.

The media is owned by 'them' and we all can see them misreport or distort the truth at every chance no matter the story as long as it pushes the agendas of the day. Especially, to push an agenda that starts with 'you citizens don't have any say anymore'. Jefferson and Washington would NOT blame us because these people have used diversions and lies to the honest people wanting to believe the lie who have no way of knowing what the real truth is . UNLESS people are willing to think outside the box the powers that be wish us to only look in. Our founding fathers would expect us to rise up once we realized the treason and act accordingly. So far, it is confusing thanks to the media not doing their job while smearing Tea-party or other groups wanting responsible practices and continued use of the Constitution as our guiding document.

I am expecting at some point that law enforcement will get some balls in these matters. Once they do, we WILL have their collective backs and I believe Veterans and active Army's of this country would support the cause. But if John Q Citizen tries this, he/we will be mauled without LEO backing him which as of right now they won't. SO IMHO, the LEO's need to move before we lose this country to treasonous bastards who don't care if there is a USA as long as they are getting their cut of the spoils. I feel like the common man would get cut down like the wacko's at Waco if they were to try to do a citizen's arrest on just the treasonous criminals we think we can see.

reply to post by Ameilia



I remember watching more then one documentary, and if I remember correctly, they opposed any law except Bible and will of their leader, and were arming them self for protection of evil (everyone who was not in their sect).

In my opinion, this is just another example how dangerous is religion, especially when preached by psychopathic people. Just as I don't support any sort of religious laws above regular law, they just did not have a right for what they tried to do. (If I remember, kids were molested in the sect).

Don't base your topic and views only on one documentary, especially not the one that was made to preform your opinion.

I was 12 years old when Wounded Knee II happened and I remember quite a bit of it. It was a long drawn out hell, that began long before the military descended onto the rez that year. It all began with Dick Wilson, trying to retain control over the Lakota people by stealing jobs, tribal funds, creating on the spot laws, and a gang of thugs that killed people in the night and raped women and young girls. Dick Wilson was a tool of the govt, doing their bidding. He was part Lakota but that man truly hated his own people and enjoyed his reign of terror. When the people were questioning the mining of uranium on the land, babies born deformed, and women and men coming down with cancer left and right, it was Dick Wilson that held people off by lying and bullying the people with his thugs.

I mean, really, Wounded Knee II was about getting that power out of Dick Wilson's hands as he was one of the most corrupt members in the tribal chair. White people will write the history, but we lived it and know it because we were there. The AIM people did not even originate from the rez itself, they brought the AIM to the rez to try and get people free of the thugs. The movement at first was a good one, and it brought a lot of power back into the people's hands for a short time, but AIM also created a lot of trouble too, and the govt sent some infiltrators in and some agent provocateurs. Just like any movement though, some of the AIM people were corrupt and sold out to the govt. It's a long story and too long to write out here. As I said, many stories have been told but there is only one truth.

When Means, Banks, Crow Dog, and a whole nest of others got together and took over the church near Wounded Knee, was a message for Dick Wilson to relinquish power or change what he was doing. There was no intention for people to be hurt. It was merely a protest. People tried to say they took hostages, the pastor and his wife, but when media came in, the Pastor and his wife said they wanted to stay and support the movement. Of course, once Dick Wilson called Washington and got the military to come and fight against the protestors, it was pretty much going to be over right then once they came with their guns and set up shop. Not only did military come, so did all the infiltrators, pretending to be friends with the AIM or with families on the rez. I think we fought them off pretty good. We held our ground for many weeks and got some demands met but unfortunately some had to die for this to happen. They were warriors, willing to die for change. That's something many people in this country won't do. Die for a cause. We as a people got some of our freedom back on our own land, however that did not last once the occupation was over. Once the Knee II was done, then the big reign of terror for us came and so many people were killed and terrorized back into submissiveness, BY DICK WILSON'S thugs, not just the military or feds out of WA.

I was a child during the reign of terror days and I recall my friend coming to our place crying because someone shot up her entire family late at night, and didn't get her because she was off by the creek going to the bathroom. Old ones were killed in their beds, and what little they had was stolen. Anyone that tried to fight against the uranium mining was killed. I know two women that was shot in their car after traveling to a mining site late at night. I remember the days where my dad and mom huddled down at night, us kids in bed, lights off, and dad sitting by the front door with a shot gun to protect whoever may come. And this was not just a one day ordeal like Ruby Ridge, this went on for a couple of years.

The good thing that the Knee II brought about though was that it gave the people power to fight back against the religious oppression. My parents didn't send us to Catholic boarding school, but we know people who did and they were beaten for speaking the language even in the 60's. The Knee gave us more religious freedom and we brought back the Ghost Dance, Inipi, and other ceremonies for the people. They brought awareness back in and people started to learn the language.

We have a long way to go but we are still here and trying to do better and break cycles of domestic violence and find ways to empower our youth. The people who died at the Knee II, did not die in vain. We try to do better because of them but like I said it's a long way to go.

I can't really compare the Knee to Ruby Ridge or Waco because it's not the exact same thing.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Okay, I'm a bit confused. The reports you listed from the two coroners seem to contradict eachother. Peerwani says that most of the victims in the bunker mostly died of smoke inhalation, although a few children were shot. Some were crushed from the collapsing debris.

Crow says there were alot of euthanasia and mercy killings. Does he mean outside the bunker? The question sounds as if he's talking about in the bunker, not outside. Isn't Crow a dental forensic expert? I am not sure.

Peerwani says he didn't think the bunker victims committed suicide.

Originally posted by kennylee
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I watched every second of the seige also. I was 33 years old. I know what I saw and I saw the US Government set fire to that building and I watched in horror as it burned, knowing about all the men women and children still inside.

I remember that too, like it was yesterday. I remember sitting there completely stunned, and my mother saying "Oh my God what about the children?"

Everyone should know that the govt /military doesn't give a crap about your kids either. Look how they gunned down children at Wounded Knee. They wouldn't hesitate again if it fit the agenda. Look at the massacre in Co, where kid and baby was shot. Look at imagery of dead children at the Denver Airport. It's a little heads up for all of us. I learned early on as a child what the govt thinks of children in this country.

Originally posted by Grambler


Think about how frightening and painful the last moments for those innocent children must have been. I dont care if Koresh and every adult in that place was a psycho, more than 20 children tortured and killed by our government.

And no one punished in the ensuing investigation. It makes me physically ill to think about.

edit on 30-7-2012 by Grambler because: (no reason given)

And it will happen again if people let it. The govt has succeeded in producing a very young generation of people who could care less about what they are doing to this country. Not all our youth, but a good deal of them do not care. They have been hypnotized by all things internet, phones, ipods, computers, flat screens, games, genetically altered food, diet soda /aspartame, and so many other mind numbing crazy making things. For the most part, people are "under control" in this country. Anyone want proof of this? Look in the airport where people line up to let TSA molest them. Not many are fighting against oppression. This is outward blatant oppression taking place and no one is doing anything to stop it. It's because as a country, we are becoming complacent.

If you obey and you do what you are supposed to, then no more Wacos will happen in the future. The game and the approach to controlling the masses has changed and people are falling for it every day.

reply to post by Thunder heart woman



How did the government set fire to the building? What did you see happen? I'm not challenging you, I just didn't see that part.

Originally posted by texasgirl
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Okay, I'm a bit confused. The reports you listed from the two coroners seem to contradict eachother. Peerwani says that most of the victims in the bunker mostly died of smoke inhalation, although a few children were shot. Some were crushed from the collapsing debris.

Crow says there were alot of euthanasia and mercy killings. Does he mean outside the bunker? The question sounds as if he's talking about in the bunker, not outside. Isn't Crow a dental forensic expert? I am not sure.

Peerwani says he didn't think the bunker victims committed suicide.

edit on 30-7-2012 by texasgirl because: (no reason given)

It can be a bit confusing at first. The two Doctors are talking about two distinctly separate and physically independent areas for bodies being recovered and the condition they were found in. There is the Bunker location which contained the children and most women and there is the overall compound, which includes everything above ground where the buildings stood before the fire. The causes of death and conditions of the bodies between those in the former rooms of the house and those inside the bunker with all their weapons and ammunition supplies varied enough to cause confusion when the interview wasn't specifying which location is being talked about.

In this way, even the numbers are a bit confusing, I admit. The bunker had one number and the total crime scene had close to 80 bodies total recovered.


@Kneverr

If you mistake confidence for arrogance and comfort with my subject for rigid adherence to my conclusions, then I'm sorry that misunderstanding exists. I'm completely open to other possibilities if they are supported and backed. Opinions in a discussion of a factual event are fine in context...and it's a pretty weak context.

Aside from that, I don't enter a discussion in depth and carry on for any length of time unless I am confident in my own position and I'll keep researching until I do reach that level of confidence. That certainly doesn't mean I'm closed to, as you put it, the '3 sides' to a story.

I have a ton of material I am getting to after I check messages...from this thread...and from last night. Would I even bother reading more if I weren't looking for more information and to learn as much as share?

Originally posted by texasgirl
reply to post by Thunder heart woman

 

How did the government set fire to the building? What did you see happen? I'm not challenging you, I just didn't see that part.

Many people claim that this was intentionally done, which is up for debate, but here is what is definitely known.

The tear gas was flammable, and for six years the FBI claimed they fired no incindiary rounds, or rounds that would light a fire.

Turns out they lied, and in 1999 video evidence was released that showed they agents asked for permission to use "military rounds" that could start a fire, and they were granted it.

The FBIs excuse for lying? Basically, "were sorry, we didn't know anybody was interested." Laughable considering this was a main theme in the Waco hearings.

Its all described here. www.cbsnews.com...

Just because it was uploaded to Youtube in 2011 does not mean it was made in 2011.

I checked on IMDB and it says it was made in 1999

Waco: A New Revelation (1999)

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Oh wow Jean Paul, where to start? I began with the series of press releases and story summary pieces you sent and treated that as my starting point. I also did everything I could to start mentally fresh and without a pre-determined outcome in mind. I thought I had a solid grasp of how bad this had really been. I don't think that's true now.

Primary Sources Used:

#1. Investigative Report - Branch Davidian Evidence, Sept 1999
(Texas Department of Public Safety - Texas Rangers)

My first surprise was learning the depth of the war between the Texas Rangers, the FBI, Janet Reno and the U.S. Marshal Service. I'd recalled a lot of tension and strife. I didn't realize they were working directly against each other in many ways and for the entire duration. For this reason, I take the most reliable evaluations as coming from the Texas Rangers. In reading, I've come to believe they were the closest to honest brokers in the entire investigation!

#2. The Fire At The Branch Davidian Complex, Sept 2000
(Prepared for the Office of Special Counsel by Walter Wetherington, Fire Investigator)

Pages 13, 14 and 15 are of special interest here and describe the nature of the 3 points where the fires started, what the evidence showed was used and the state of fuel containers found in or around those ignition points.

#3. Interim Report To The Deputy Attorney General, July 2000
(John Danforth, Special Counsel, appointed by Janet Reno as independent investigator to the tragedy.)
This report is a general reference point for testimony, physical evidence and order of events.

I've got about 15 tabs open with different source sites and those are just the primary sites, but this one also has to be mentioned. It's a partial transcript from a listening device delivered into their compound among the various things given to them over the course of the siege.

Listening Device Transcripts from Inside on April 19, 1993/

* The Raid:

Now I never have disputed the outrageous and criminal (in my view) nature of how this all began. In reading, I learned that the ATF agents staged at Ft Hood and made for a convoy over 1 mile in length and 80 vehicles long. This, to service a warrant which could as easily have started by making arrests away from the compound. Nothing there was changed or is new. In fact, if anything, I only learned more to condemn the BATF. (Helicopter Firing may have killed 4 on opening day)

* April 19 (The Last Day):

After reading all of this, the MAIN issue of what started the fires is not changed in my mind. That was internal in origin and the raw physical evidence supports that. However, the use of the M651 CS Grenades and the 'Whitestar' Arial Flare rounds never have seemed to be fully explained or, in the case of two M651 grenades, ever located among the evidence at all. They are known, according to the U.S. Army, to burn at 600-700 degrees during their 20-30 second dispersion cycle. It would be condeming if they hadn't been fired hours prior to the conflagaration that leveled the compund. We know when they were fired by the HRT Radio traffic approving their use against the bunker just prior to firing them.
(M651 CS Gas Grenade - Military)

In at least the CS Gas Grenades, it would seem to be a case where the truth actually would have served them better if it had come from day 1 and not after so many years of fighting between Texas and the Federal Government/DOJ. The evidence just doesn't match for these starting the fires, but by the time the FBI took evidence, destroyed the scene (in various ways) and obstructed the Rangers and others for years on this and other details, fat chance convincing many people of that now. Sometimes the Feds are their own worst enemy.

Con't....

Continued...

The more I've read their own words over the listening devices and read their own testimony referenced from the trial transcripts, the more I've come to see something considerably different than I first interpreted this to be. Worse...this seems to have been much worse.

If their own words inside the compound are taken as valid, then the spreading of accelerant and starting the fires wasn't as much about any desire to commit mass suicide as it was a strategy to repel assault and keep the federal teams from getting inside to take the compound. This seems to honestly have been their thinking and it would make a lot more sense now for why the women and children were herded into the bunker for what turned into a terminal trap. Perhaps they didn't believe the fire would take the entire complex and bunker or at least, with the sheer speed it did.

* Conclusions:

Regardless of the ultimate motivations for spreading fuel and and starting their fires, this much seems horribly clear. They hadn't woke up that morning, planning to die. Their demands mid morning for the repair of communications would tend to show they weren't fixed on imminent death. At the same time, they were being gassed, flash banged and were absolutely out gunned and surrounded. In other words....confusion and total chaos for understanding what was happening seemed to be the rule of the day and tragically poor decisions were made in the midst of what must have seemed like hell on all sides, inside the compound itself. Add to this, the apocalyptic ramblings of their 'fearless leader' for the entire duration...and it's heartbreaking but almost predictable for how this ended.

In specifics, I found the number and it was 23 dead by gunshot. On this point, I still fail to find solid evidence as do those I read much closer to the case and events for how many, if any were the result of rounds from outside the walls. The FBI so totally trashed evidence and the recreation of some details by deception and obstruction, I'm at a loss in thinking evidence will ever answer whether a few of those 23 could have been from fire outside, directed in. I cannot accept that happened, if at all, in any coordinated or planned way. First, the radio traffic doesn't support it. Second, the FBI aren't faceless monsters and these were kids inside. If some fired in, their fellow agents damn sure didn't see it as a whole, is my thinking.

* Summary Thoughts:

Finally, I just want to thank you for bringing that list of original stories to my attention. So much happened in 1999 and my head was deep in Y2k prep in those final months of the year. I had to really think and ask how I missed so much of this and that's what I was occupied with. In giving a reason to go back through all that, I've certainly come away with some different impressions on the players, the events and just what things likely looked like inside.

The most offensive thing, after the initial raid is considered and put to the side, is how much outright lying and obstruction went on to the Rangers, the Court and the public. I can't say I appreciated how deep and how MUCH there was. The FBI should have seen high level managers fired and prosecuted. Not necessarily for the tragedy, but the endless efforts to obscure the facts afterward. Like other events, they made a cover-up where I'm not even sure the details needed one. The Government just seems to Default to that mode..and in this case... It's sickening.

(For the raid that started it all? Everyone remotely involved with planning and executing that ATTACK on civilians should still be serving time in prison! None of this ever needed to happen. THAT is clearer now than ever before.)

Originally posted by Cuervo
reply to post by morder1

 

My liberal friends like to complain about the ultra-orthodox-right-wing folks in America... but I don't. I think they are exactly where we need them. Ready to act. If something like Ruby Ridge... or the 1973 Wounded Knee... or like Waco... or like any of the many thing we hear of today in smaller scale...