Waco Texas, What happened there in 1993? Documentary from 2011 explains the horrible incident..

the sad reality on waco is that the fbi and atf decided in the end, that murdering children was acceptable, hows that for a wake up call to anyone who thinks the govt is there to help them.

reply to post by morder1


Waco was a really dark day in America's history. It was the day that I realized that our government would murder its own citizens without blinking an eye. It was the day that I woke up. I made this thread about Waco back in 2010, and it has some good info in it also.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The best video series I have found is called Rules of Engagement, which is in my OP at the link above.

The government murdered those people that day, plain and simple. And the sheeple believed the "official" story.

Hmm.. I suppose I'll make this my last comment on this thread, as I can see that fact is a term with wildly different meanings depending on who is using it.

Jonestown aside...

Ruby Ridge aside... (these really were 3 totally unrelated incidents..however hard that is to believe to those who weren't living through the period to watch these last two live and in real time color.)

Waco as the focus here. I see many people I've considered well informed on other topics continue to say the U.S. Government murdered people at Waco. Well, I watched that siege day in and day out and the whole nation watched the end, in all it's horrible reality.

What I didn't see...were any FBI Agents or ATF Agents entering the compound before the fire. I didn't see any US Government agents of any kind near the building who weren't buttoned up tight in armored vehicles. Something about the Davidians having automatic weapons and just gleeful about using them on anything within range. (including their own people, in the end)


So.. with all the above considered and the fact that the unbroken and recorded coverage never showed any agents enter or even approach the building, who shot so many children, point blank in their heads, as autospies showed clearly occurred PRIOR TO destruction by fire? Who executed those who didn't die by poison? Uncle Sam did not shoot children. The Davidians whom people seem determined to paint as poor victims EXECUTED THEIR OWN CHILDREN...and the medical evidence leaves no questions any intelligent person can raise on THAT specific issue.

So... Pardon while I ONLY wish the evil bastards who would murder thier OWN kids had died without taking innocent lives with them. Aside from that? I'm happy as not that the state of Texas didn't have to pay to try and execute the sorry excuses for human beings. The ATF started the fight, no question. The outright evil of David Koresh ENDED it though, and in precisely the blaze of apocalyptic glory he'd spent many many days babbling about for myself and the rest of the nation to hear. He called his end and then HE MADE that end happen.

Good riddens to one evil human being and the trash he attracted......and God take care of those innocents the monsters took down with them.

In the first minute of firing there was a 911 call placed by Davidian Wayne Martin: "There are 75 men around our building and they're shooting at us, at Mount Carmel. Tell 'em there are women and children in here and to call it off! Call it off!!" This guy begged for a ceasefire and the 911 recipient said he was working on it.

Both the ATF and Davidians agree that Koresh appeared at the front door and told the agents that there were women and children in the compound. The shooting actually started at the other end of the building, away from the media cameras, so the viewers did not see this happen.

Also, the steel door to the compound went missing after the siege. It is alleged that Koresh (before he died) told the negotiators that the evidence of who shot first would be on that door.

No one knows who shot first but key evidence has conveniently vanished.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


i watched it as well and i did see the agents set the whole place on fire, what did they expect would happen?

i'm not talking about the adults here, i'm talking about the kids. did they think the kids would have a chance in hell of surviving the fire? are you serious?
if me and my kids would have been trapped inside while the place was an inferno with no way out, i think i would have shot them also lest they go through burning to death.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I watched every second of the seige also. I was 33 years old. I know what I saw and I saw the US Government set fire to that building and I watched in horror as it burned, knowing about all the men women and children still inside.

If I was inside an inferno like the one that Waco was, I would shoot whoever I could in the head and kill them instantly, instaed of having to watch them burn to death in a slow and agonizing death.

The video of Waco called Rules of Engagement is full of EVIDENCE, yes, actual evidence of how the government forces were not going to let anybody out alive. Like when a few tried to go out the back door to escape and was shot at by the national guard.

I believe and know in my heart what the government did that day and what they did at Ruby Ridge. They murdered and they murdered legally. A million people with your same opinion on the subject will never change my mind, although I respect your right to that opinion.

Originally posted by kennylee
reply to post by morder1

 

Waco was a really dark day in America's history. It was the day that I realized that our government would murder its own citizens without blinking an eye. It was the day that I woke up. I made this thread about Waco back in 2010, and it has some good info in it also.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The best video series I have found is called Rules of Engagement, which is in my OP at the link above.

The government murdered those people that day, plain and simple. And the sheeple believed the "official" story.

sheeple??....it's too bad he was such a coward that he hid behind children and women and used them as shields...you know...just like muslim terrorists do. he was such a piece of religous, nutcase, peadophile slime, i don't know how anyone can defend him.

I was field artillery in the Army. We had a guy in our unit who had been a tank crew member before changing his MOS and was at Waco. Now I am not saying his story is gospel, but what he told us was that those fires broke out after the tanks were ordered to open fire on the compound.

Again, I don't know how much truth there is to his story, however, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

reply to post by texasgirl

Well, first, to your point of the chaos of the initial raid that started it.....Don't expect to ever hear me say a single word...not one...to defend the ATF cowboy crusade here that started a siege which never had to happen. There damn sure should have been some ATF agents lose careers and pensions over it. David Koresh was known to go into town regular enough and could EASILY have been arrested on the street. No fuss...no muss...no hassles. No dead kids.

However, your account here is missing something enormous. As the world learned later, ATS had an informant inside the compound and far from being shocked the ATF arrived, they were waiting on them and armed to the teeth. I don't doubt the 911 call, as panic was surely the rule once the shooting started. However, one of the BIG points of the entire post-incident investigation was WHY the ATF went ahead with a raid they knew the compound had been warned of and was expecting.

No....My debate on facts of Waco don't start with the raid. I think I agree with everyone else that ATF created a catastrophe where a routine arrest on a public street should have been what happened. I just disagree with the wild theories of how it ended.

Yes if they set the building on fire and I thought that they were going to kill us all. Then I`d die with my kids and would proberly shoot them, before I`d let them burn to death. It was all a horrible stupid thing and no one should of died there. As I said, I recall reading some thing about an air port close to there. Were the alphabet gang were bringing in coke. Koresh seen them and so they had to do the waco thing to kill the story. Made sense to me at the time.

Just a solid reference to see on this, but this is from the investigations afterward. This one, in particular, from Congress.

2. While the ATF had probable cause to obtain the arrest warrant for David Koresh and the search warrant for the Branch Davidian residence, the affidavit filed in support of the warrants contained numerous false statements. The ATF agents responsible for preparing the affidavits knew or should have known that many of the statements were false.
3. David Koresh could have been arrested outside the Davidian compound. The ATF deliberately chose not to arrest Koresh outside the Davidian residence and instead determined to use a dynamic entry approach. In making this decision ATF agents exercised extremely poor judgment, made erroneous assumptions, and ignored the perils of this course of action which they should have foreseen.

Source

I don't know anyone who disagrees that the ATF made decisions which turned an arrest into a massacre. Again though...the ATF didn't end this, David Koresh did.

Originally posted by kennylee
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I watched every second of the seige also. I was 33 years old. I know what I saw and I saw the US Government set fire to that building and I watched in horror as it burned, knowing about all the men women and children still inside.

If I was inside an inferno like the one that Waco was, I would shoot whoever I could in the head and kill them instantly, instaed of having to watch them burn to death in a slow and agonizing death.

The video of Waco called Rules of Engagement is full of EVIDENCE, yes, actual evidence of how the government forces were not going to let anybody out alive. Like when a few tried to go out the back door to escape and was shot at by the national guard.

I believe and know in my heart what the government did that day and what they did at Ruby Ridge. They murdered and they murdered legally. A million people with your same opinion on the subject will never change my mind, although I respect your right to that opinion.

"actual evidence of how the government forces were not going to let anybody out alive".....are you serious? they negotiated for days and days for koresh to release the women and children....koresh is the one to blame for that bloodbath...nobody else

reply to post by jimmyx


Agreed. This was also about the most heavily filmed and watched site in the nation for that period of time. How couldn't they have surrendered?? Those who did come out were immediately taken away and cared for. Some arrested, true, and some not. Depended on WHO came out.

What do some people think would have happened if Koresh HAD kept to his word...given MANY MANY times...that he's come out? They would have shot him down for the world press to record? Amazing the lines of logic to some of this huh?

(To head off an argument...this happened before Government could routinely just 'order' media to cut filming and be greeted with something other than laughter and jokes...America wasn't always like it is today)

Originally posted by LittleBlackEagle
the sad reality on waco is that the fbi and atf decided in the end, that murdering children was acceptable, hows that for a wake up call to anyone who thinks the govt is there to help them.

so you actually believe that koresh didn't have anything to do with this...i guess if your wife and kids were held at the point of an automatic assualt rifle and not allowed to leave after days and days of negotiations, that would be considered sanity....

reply to post by kennylee


Hey thanks for joining in, I have saved that other documentary for watching later tonight.

Thanks for the link

To jimmy- Who had the automatic assault rifles pointed at women and childrens head?

reply to post by kennylee


I was going to check out that doc you linked through your post... Instead of the 10 minute sections, there is a full 2 hour 20 minute long link...



Cant wait to check it out

If you want to know the truth look at who Vernon was and how he got there. That alone will answer the false statements claim. In my book he was a pure scum bag. None the less, even scum bags are afforded due process.

Vernon had plenty of chances to nip the situation in the bud. He chose to not respond when the local authorities were in the investigative stage, thus allowing the situation to escalate. My personal opinion on the matter of fire arms and what should or shouldn't be allowed is immaterial to the conversation. When a charge is levied against you it is time to man up and face your accuser. Failure to do so places your life and those around you in jeopardy.

If you believe so strongly in a cause that you become it's beacon, then you should let the chips fall as they may. If it is jail, so be it. What you don't do, is take away another's choice because they have blind faith in you.

In the end, the evidence proved he was breaking the law all along, and like most scum he hid behind woman and children because he was not man enough to face the consequences of his actions.

reply to post by morder1


Thanks for the full video link.

To everyone who says Koresh held women and children at gunpoint, do you have proof of this, besides what the government says?

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by LittleBlackEagle
the sad reality on waco is that the fbi and atf decided in the end, that murdering children was acceptable, hows that for a wake up call to anyone who thinks the govt is there to help them.

so you actually believe that koresh didn't have anything to do with this...i guess if your wife and kids were held at the point of an automatic assualt rifle and not allowed to leave after days and days of negotiations, that would be considered sanity....

koresh was a nut bag and many of his followers brain washed, but that doesn't excuse the govt for what they did to the kids. those people were no danger to anyone outside of that compound and i'm guessing the govt. just snapped and decided to end it killing children or not.

anyone seen trying to leave the building were shot on site, so i guess at that point what you have is murder of innocent kids, plain and simple.

reply to post by SLAYER69

We get kicked around, batted at and called all kinds of names here at ATS. What makes you think while we are saving our family and our own butts we should stop drop and roll for those out there who have spent most of their adult lives belittling and berating those of us [who do in fact responsibly own firearms and believe it to be an incontestable constitutional right to do so] at every turn because it's the Pop-Culture in thing to do?

Because some of us right wing gun nuts are Americans first, I may not like my neighbors stance on____ fill in what ever contrasting opinion to my own.

And I will defend to my death their Constitutional rights, even if they are unwilling to do it themselves.