Waco Texas, What happened there in 1993? Documentary from 2011 explains the horrible incident..

Well I had only heard about Waco in passing, and only knew that some people were killed by the govt, I didnt realize how many, and in what fashion...

A buddy from work had started talking about a book he found on Ruby Ridge, So I started looking into that, then he mentioned this documentary on Waco and WOW!

Its a must watch if you dont know what happened there... in America

Rough breakdown from my memory of watching this last night

A religious community known as the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas, their "leader"(I dont know if this is correct term) David Koresh was wanted on firearms charge, as the Davidians also owned a firearm shop, and a neighbor had alerted authorities of automatic weapon fire coming from the ranch...

ATF came to serve the warrant at the firearms shop and a firefight broke out,ending with 4 ATF agents dead, and 6 davidians dead...

A siege lasted for 51 days on the compound, bringing in tanks(for the first time on domestic soil), Blasting tear gas into the compound for 2+ hours in an area known to have the innocent women and children holed up... They used so much gas they eventually ran out and had to re-supply...

They also cut off water and power to the compound, leaving the people inside to live off rain water collected when it would rain... and even told the davidians they were not allowed to surrender, and would be dealt with in manor which they would have to run back inside for cover

On the last day of the siege, tanks were busting down walls(official story that they were opening up the building for people to escape, although nobody was a hostage). A fire broke out in 3 or 4 different areas within the compound and almost all the surviving davidians were killed in the fire, about 50 adults, and 20 children... with the official story being that they all committed suicide...

Its amazing how much evidence was lost, mixed up etc...

Anyways, here it is.

Dang an hour and nothin?

Must be slow part of the night, or everyone is just frozen by the reality of the incident

reply to post by morder1


There were terrible acronyms for Waco, including We Ain't Coming Out (during), and What A Cook Out (after).

I was 10 years old when this happened and it led the news every night until it was over. Even as a child, I was horrified by what was going on. Perhaps that was because of adults around me and their reaction.

Since then I have read about Ruby Ridge and Waco, as well as Jonestown, and have been repeatedly amazed at what has gone down with little or no protest from normal citizens.

On top of being denied electricity and water, the Davidian's were also subjected to a constant barrage of noise disallowing sleep and normal thinking.

The one lady I clearly remember surrendering was arrested and convicted.

Yes I recall watching this on the news. Being in the UK I thought it was a bit much, tanks ect. What had they done wrong in the land of the free? I then recall reading some thing about a coc aine smuggling operation, by the alphabet agencys at some air field close by. It was a crime no matter which way you look at it.
I guess thats why those evil terrorists want to attack the USA, jealouse of the freedom you Americans have over there.

reply to post by morder1


You need to realize this happened before 9/11 and before "freedom fries". This means that any breach to the constitution before that period is considered invalid.

The Waco incident is a horrible HORRIBLE tragedy. If that happened today, with the right wing where they are at now (or maybe back then with a black president), we would be raging in the streets.

My liberal friends like to complain about the ultra-orthodox-right-wing folks in America... but I don't. I think they are exactly where we need them. Ready to act. If something like Ruby Ridge... or the 1973 Wounded Knee... or like Waco... or like any of the many thing we hear of today in smaller scale...

I think the government wouldn't be able to handle it. I embrace my crazy gun-toting conservative counterparts because, believe it or not, they will be defending liberals in the end. And I'll thank them every step of the way.

Main point is this: "freedom fries" may end up being what breaks the camel's proverbial back.

reply to post by Cuervo


Meanwhile back at the ranch [Pun intended]

We get kicked around, batted at and called all kinds of names here at ATS. What makes you think while we are saving our family and our own butts we should stop drop and roll for those out there who have spent most of their adult lives belittling and berating those of us [who do in fact responsibly own firearms and believe it to be an incontestable constitutional right to do so] at every turn because it's the Pop-Culture in thing to do?

Just curious is all

reply to post by Cuervo

Main point is this: "freedom fries" may end up being what breaks the camel's proverbial back.

I really don't see how this is related to democrat/republican nonsense. And weren't freedom fries coined during the GW Bush era when France refused to go into Iraq?

Your total post makes no sense nor does it relate to WACO.

reply to post by Ameilia
Whoa there....

I was about 5 when Jonestown happened, but I don't see how that relates much. What people will stand for? The people demanded the place be checked out and Jim Jones has a U.S. Congressman executed on his way to his plane. That was the answer to people doing something. By the time Mr Jones would have gotten the American reply to shooting a Congressman in such a manor, well, he whipped up a batch of Cool-aid and the rest is history I don't recommend the images for after eating anything.

Ruby Ridge was it's own thing..and has nothing to do with Waco. Totally unrelated events except that over-bearing idiocy by the ATF (A-lways T-hink F-orfeiture!) started them both to different degrees and the FBI ended them both, also to varying degrees.

As for WACO... Well... before anyone gets too convinced they know everything that happened, I might recommend a book that covers one of the only direct and eye/ear accounts of what actually happened, up close and personal to the outer walls of the compound.

Cold Zero - Inside the FBI's HRT
The author was sitting yards from the outer wall of the Waco compound starting a number of days before the end came. The account from that side is detailed and there was audio those guys heard. Hearing that described is enough to leave me feeling sick. Anyway... It's funny how many details there always turn out to be on these things that never seem to carry over the years to accounts portrayed later.

Originally posted by morder1
Well I had only heard about Waco in passing, and only knew that some people were killed by the govt, I didnt realize how many, and in what fashion...

A buddy from work had started talking about a book he found on Ruby Ridge, So I started looking into that, then he mentioned this documentary on Waco and WOW!

Its a must watch if you dont know what happened there... in America

Rough breakdown from my memory of watching this last night

A religious community known as the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas, their "leader"(I dont know if this is correct term) David Koresh was wanted on firearms charge, as the Davidians also owned a firearm shop, and a neighbor had alerted authorities of automatic weapon fire coming from the ranch...

ATF came to serve the warrant at the firearms shop and a firefight broke out,ending with 4 ATF agents dead, and 6 davidians dead...

A siege lasted for 51 days on the compound, bringing in tanks(for the first time on domestic soil), Blasting tear gas into the compound for 2+ hours in an area known to have the innocent women and children holed up... They used so much gas they eventually ran out and had to re-supply...

They also cut off water and power to the compound, leaving the people inside to live off rain water collected when it would rain... and even told the davidians they were not allowed to surrender, and would be dealt with in manor which they would have to run back inside for cover

On the last day of the siege, tanks were busting down walls(official story that they were opening up the building for people to escape, although nobody was a hostage). A fire broke out in 3 or 4 different areas within the compound and almost all the surviving davidians were killed in the fire, about 50 adults, and 20 children... with the official story being that they all committed suicide...

Its amazing how much evidence was lost, mixed up etc...

Anyways, here it is.

edit on 29-7-2012 by morder1 because: (no reason given)

It's pretty much the same thing that happened at Ruby Ridge, just without the religious part. Someone wanted to be left alone and live their life and the big bad wolf wouldn't let it happen.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

The people demanded the place be checked out and Jim Jones has a U.S. Congressman executed on his way to his plane.

This may or may not be true depending on which version of events a person chooses to believe. You seem to believe this (nothing wrong with that) however my mind has never been made up one way or the other. The only thing I am sure of is that the Congressman was a hero and didn't deserve to be murdered.

If my statement is confusing, I'm sorry, I don't want to provide any links because they lead you towards one thing or the other, generally, and this is something a person should try and come to their own opinion on. I am basing most of my statements on the theory Jones was a government agent. Again, I don't make that statement because it correlates my belief.

Ruby Ridge was it's own thing..and has nothing to do with Waco.

These two things are commonly placed together because they do have things in common. If you haven't read the Reader's Digest book on Ruby Ridge and are interested in this subject, you might want to check it out. It's years old (I read it in the 90s and it might have been old then) so you can probably get it used online for cheap. That might help you put together what Ruby Ridge and Waco have in common. Then again, that's an opinion.

It's an interesting read no matter which way your beliefs end up running.

Ruby Ridge didn't have a large number of children with bullet holes from shots delivered at point blank range. That is part of what the FBI Snipers had to listen to. The popping...As I recall, the didn't know for sure what it was...until after...and then found the bodies and the execution shots. The popping was the children getting a shot to the head as the adults ran down the halls killing those the drinks hadn't already done.

How that can possibly compare to Ruby Ridge where a family was basically set up and cornered by an ATF totally out of control...and literally assaulted in the woods to kick the whole ugly thing off, is beyond me.

Vicki was killed by a miss that went through the door she was directly behind. Horrible...but Waco? No one on Ruby Ridge were killers. Screw the initial encounter. If I came upon armed men in the woods who just shot my dog, I'd shoot them up too. Good for them on that....by the way. Idaho had good people. Texas has a psycho running a cult. No real comparison outside the agency that totally screwed things up. I WILL agree neither should ever have happened and the ATF turned arrests into catastrophes.

reply to post by Ameilia

I don't recall if I caught the readers digest or not... I've read several books on the two in the years since I watched both events happen through TV coverage. As noted, it was hard to miss the wall to wall nonstop coverage and Waco went on SO long people were starting to wonder if it would ever end.

By the way...... Just an FYI on the FBI book in terms of accuracy and fairness. I do recall the comment about no one coming off that mountain alive being referenced, and the author saying who gave that order. It was also noted, among the sniper teams who were stationed on the ridge, not a single one of them was going to follow it. Things like that....are always the little details which never seem to come out.

Anyway... I've been saying I was headed to bed for awhile.. I'm looking forward to checking back on this for new info when I get up. Interesting thread!

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Ameilia

 

Whoa there....

I was about 5 when Jonestown happened, but I don't see how that relates much. What people will stand for? The people demanded the place be checked out and Jim Jones has a U.S. Congressman executed on his way to his plane. That was the answer to people doing something. By the time Mr Jones would have gotten the American reply to shooting a Congressman in such a manor, well, he whipped up a batch of Cool-aid and the rest is history I don't recommend the images for after eating anything.

Ruby Ridge was it's own thing..and has nothing to do with Waco. Totally unrelated events except that over-bearing idiocy by the ATF (A-lways T-hink F-orfeiture!) started them both to different degrees and the FBI ended them both, also to varying degrees.

As for WACO... Well... before anyone gets too convinced they know everything that happened, I might recommend a book that covers one of the only direct and eye/ear accounts of what actually happened, up close and personal to the outer walls of the compound.

Cold Zero - Inside the FBI's HRT
The author was sitting yards from the outer wall of the Waco compound starting a number of days before the end came. The account from that side is detailed and there was audio those guys heard. Hearing that described is enough to leave me feeling sick. Anyway... It's funny how many details there always turn out to be on these things that never seem to carry over the years to accounts portrayed later.

edit on 29-7-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: Correction: Senator to Congressman on Jonestown Massacre

the dude who wrote Cold Zero - Inside the FBI's HRT has been promoted, Currently director of information management for the Bureau's Critical Incident Response Group

History = His Story

but it aint the Truth

reply to post by canyouhandletruth

We'll agree to disagree on that point of truth..... I take accuracy by what other accounts from unrelated sources agree and confirm a thing. Plenty of what Christopher Whitcomb wrote from major details to minor ones, I found confirmed from entirely different directions in other accounts and books. So... I take it as accurate, as much as these things ever are.

'Ever are', refers to both sides... So flip a coin. I chose heads and the FBI book for at least PART of what I consider.I know what I saw live and as it happened, and the media can't even get some of that right...if I'm to believe my lying eyes. So who knows...but Koresh was a freak and a psycho. I ONLY regret...anyone had to go with him. He chose his fate as much as shooting himself. Damn him for how many he took down with him when he went. If the ATF hadn't been cowboys and just arrested the man on a grocery trip or something, no one would have died. Not 1.

Here's a bit of trivia:

What does Ruby Ridge, Waco, OKC Bombing, and Fast and Furious all have in common?



















Eric Holder

reply to post by SGTSECRET


Yeah I watched this documentary and one about ruby ridge over a couple of nights last year and it totally sickened me.
How the hell do they get away with it.

I've never understood how Americans put up with all the killings by their own authorities.

Originally posted by lambros56
reply to post by SGTSECRET

 

Yeah I watched this documentary and one about ruby ridge over a couple of nights last year and it totally sickened me.
How the hell do they get away with it.

I've never understood how Americans put up with all the killings by their own authorities.

Because if you stand up against unjust killings you are just met with more force. Good example of that is the recent riots and protests in Anaheim, CA.

I worked in a mental hospital here in Texas from 1993 till 1998. During that time I had the opportunity to visit with George Rodin at great, great length.

George Rodin was the son of the man who founded Camp David. He was told his entire life that he was the coming of the messiah. Then his father died, and his mother got mixed up with David Koresh. To the point that she gave the compound to David instead of her son.

You can imagine how disillusioning this would be. To be told that you are the messiah from birth, only to see you father die and some other man make moves on your mom. Obviously, Mr. Rodin cracked. He began believing that Koresh was the devil (for obvious reasons), and ended up killing his room mate, beliving Koresh had sent him to kill Mr. Rodin. Rodin had been hanging around with some sketchy folks, as you might expect from someone who was in his position.

Regardless, Rodin was a powerful man. He had some contacts that he would talk to occasionally. Sometimes he would leave the campus without permission. The NSA would come in and investigate when this happened. Mr. Rodin would always return on his own a day or two later, saying, "I had some business to attend to.". It always made a huge uproar.

The last time this happened, they found him dead at the back gate. He seemed to have fallen off while clmbing over the gate to get back in, broke his neck, and died. We always speculated that the NSA got tired of worrying with him.

From what I understand, he was the rightful owner of Camp David. I don't know if that is true or not.

Here is the Wiki on Roden. Many of the details are incorrect, including the way he died (and that he was captured by police on any of his walk offs...he always returned on his own, when he was done, by walking in the back gate):

en.wikipedia.org...

If i were to judge this man on what I knew personally, I liked him. Yeah, he was crazy as hell. But he was very interesting to talk to. He had some very interesting ideas. And he was very intelligent. He just was crazy. I spent over 100 hours talking to him (he was a 1 to 1 status, and I did his admission when he arrived).

The whole incident of Waco could have easily been avoided. The government did not want to avoid it.

This incident occurred under our first "black," president.

The Jim Jones tragedy is full of questions. Even though House Foreign Affairs Committess concluded that it was a mass suicide, initial reports point to the contrary. A guyanese pathologist, Mootoo, found that there were some bodies that had strange needle marks on them. Others were shot. Many of the bodies didn't have the rictus of death that cyanide poisoning causes.

Guyanese newspapers also reported that there were US green berets and UK black watch troops on exercise only a few miles away from the Jones compound. Hmm...why is it that when there is a mass shooting (or some other major tragedy ) there's a military exercise going on nearby?