Gay Marriage. I am honestly confused

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

Originally posted by kaylaluv
But does that mean I think marriage for money should be banned, or should have a different name? Nope. It's just my personal opinion. Nothing wrong with that.

And that's what Beez is saying. He doesn't want gay marriage to be banned, either, he's just not going to accept it as "real marriage" in his world. It's just his opinion.

After seeing the gay marriage debate as fully as I have, I don't judge ANYONE'S marriage as bad, wrong, or "not real". Even Kim Kardiassian's 72-day marriage. I just refrain from judgment. It's SO much easier than making a judgment about something that's frankly none if my business.

I don't endorse, encourage or promote gay marriage.

In that same vein, I don't promote, encourage, or endorse straight marriage.

I've had 22 great years with Missus Beez so far, but that's just us.

To each his/her own. As long as it doesn't infringe, inhibit, impede anyone elses freedoms' then who cares?

reply to post by Myollinir

The tradition started with man and woman, so why wouldn't you just go for a civil union

Because that's discrimination. Plain and simple. Similar to if you called marriage between black people a "civil union" because churches don't agree with it. If that's discrimination, how is it any different for same sex marriage? It's the exact same principle, the exact same contract and ceremony and purpose, people just throw a fit because according to their god, it isn't right.

Isn't there something about that in our core democratic values? Pursuit of Happiness? Allowed to do what you want as long as it isn't unlawful? And doesn't that extend to freedom of religion? Does that apply to marriage as well, or just what we want it to apply to? Is it conditional? That's strange, they never said anything about strings attached when we were studying it...

And on another note, is your username related to Mjolnir, the hammer of Thor?

Originally posted by Myollinir
reply to post by polarwarrior

 

NOBODY will EVER be equal on every level that exists. Everyone would have to be the same color, same sex, same intelligence, same sense... What's the point of wanting to be so equal to heterosexuals? Wouldn't you want to feel like you're your own person... unique... special? Equality won't exist if you have an opposite sexual desire... that already there places an ocean between you and who you want to be equal to.

Now as for this marriage deal, I agree with OP. The tradition started with man and woman, so why wouldn't you just go for a civil union and call it a day. Quit worrying about being equal when you'd rather swing the opposite way. Marriage wasn't created by the state, and most people fighting for this support separation of church and state, so what the blank is your issue?

You are getting equality mixed up with differences. You can be different and still be equal. Blacks are different than whites, but they deserve to be treated equally.

Here's the thing about the state. It is not supposed to prefer any one religion or another, or any religion at all. The "tradition" of marriage also started out as a business deal between two families. Things evolve over time. This is just one more evolution.

If you think wanting equality is silly, go move to a country that doesn't value it, and see how you feel then.

reply to post by Myollinir

Why don't you call your marriage a civil union and call it a day ?
Gays are people too you know, with feelings and stuff... Your logic is ridiculously flawed.

"NOBODY will EVER be equal on every level that exists. " Thats obvious, but this thread is about equal rights in marriage. Marriage was not created by the church either.

By the way turns out OP's religion is shia islam which made things way less confusing. Because his stance on things was all over.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Since the earliest civilizations were dominated by their religious beliefs - whether Christian or other - then the origin of almost every human institution is religious. Misguided way to look at it. Things evolve, just because it was once a religious deal, doesn't mean it wasn't also a universal aspiration and that since then, it's evolved to have secular appeal.

Never mind the tax breaks/etc.

So are we going to start making laws where you can't celebrate Christmas unless you're a Christian?

reply to post by Spotless


How on earth does knowing my religion make it easier...?

And I was not promoting any stance, and did not announce my religion because it was not relevant... I was attempting to gain an understanding...

not fight

perhaps people are too used to looking for the fight rather than the discussion.

Originally posted by NullVoid

For pro/supporter:
You may use all your knowledge and ability to justify your means, truth is, far deep down there, you know its not right.

What - equal rights for all? Yep, far deep down there, I KNOW it is right.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by Annee

 

I have been celebate for years... its really not as bad as you might think... one does get used to it after a while...

I have known people who were celibate for years. I have not known anyone who remained celibate for their entire life. Unless in a position such as a priest or nun.

My last point on this - - since you really keep dodging it.

I get really tired of the "You can't be Gay and Christian (or other)"

Not all Gays who grew up strongly in faith - - - suddenly stop believing their faith because they are gay. Some might leave their faith - - and some will adjust in their faith.

Such as:

Randy Potts - - grandson of Oral Roberts www.tulsaworld.com...

Benji Schwimmer - - www.out.com...

reply to post by Annee


I know gay Christians. Well, my friend does, and he's a straight Christian. They got on fairly well, and there was no flirting involved on either end.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

You might not realise but it, but you express yourself in a very, not sure how to call it right, abstract way. Like you had something in mind, but did not say it directly. I guessed that your religion was probably hinduism or islam.
Its all about the rules, you mentioned them indirectly quite often. Believe it or not when i knew it everything fell into places. Some of the sentences which didn't make sense now do.
You don't have to hide it as it in no way touches the main topic. Which was your confusion about gay marriage.
But since we wanted to get you out of that confusion you should've mentioned your religion as it is in fact relevant
Might be because i know more about sharia than our avarage person, but still.

Noones gonna fight you for what you believe in.
In a forum a discussion and a fight is sort of the same. Two different opinions trying to prove eachother wrong.

As you said you got plenty information about gay marriage for the upcoming next years to think about lol.

reply to post by Spotless


When I mention my religion I become labled and people want to make any topic into how evil they believe my religion to be...

so I do not discuss it

(unless of course I feel momentarily the desire to fight with ignorant people!)

Originally posted by kaylaluv

This is all very cleverly written, but in the end -- it doesn't matter what you think. The fact is - we have tax-paying, law-abiding citizens of the state who want the exact same - repeat - the EXACT SAME benefits from the state that other citizens are getting. Plain and simple. Regardless of whether they can procreate, or can't procreate, or won't procreate, regardless of what religion they do or don't follow, regardless of whether it's for money, or for love, or for family, or whatever other reason, and regardless of what opinion you personally have of the state, and it's involvement in your personal life.

So let 'em.

It's not going to affect me, nor will it change my opinions or thoughts in the matter. I don't do it for the money, and if they do, that's fine by me. There's no particular reason I have to participate or recognize it as valid. The State does that for them, not me. The State does what the State will, and recognizes what it recognizes. I neither need nor want the State to stamp "approved" on my life, and if they do, more power to 'em. They can call it a "marriage" or "partnership", "shivaree", "corporation", or "can of soup" for all I care - it won't change what it is - a business arrangement.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

I understand why you would want to keep your religion unknown, but let people think whatever they want. Like you said you entitled to your beliefs and they're entitled to theirs.
I used to be aggresive toward muslims in general, like droping the famous surah 9:5 on them or something, but then i met a few great people whos religion was islam, well i'd call it the modern version or islam but still they had a chance to educate me on the matter since i was pretty curious . I didn't care that much after that experience.
When people are from different culture its pretty hard to get understand all your rules (and believe me some of them feel so ridiculous to me).

Originally posted by kaylaluv

Originally posted by NullVoid

For pro/supporter:
You may use all your knowledge and ability to justify your means, truth is, far deep down there, you know its not right.

What - equal rights for all? Yep, far deep down there, I KNOW it is right.

Nope, its about the gay marriage, its wrong and you know it, keep rea assuring yourself, for the mean time I'll stand with what Nenothlu said here.

Bottomline
Gay marriage = civil partnership agreement. Nothing religious about it.

Originally posted by kaylaluv

I have never heard a gay person demand that people love them and cheer for them while walking down the street. Just don't be cruel, and give them the same legal benefits from the state.

Wait - you want to take away my right to be an asshole, a curmudgeon?

Why can't I be just as cruel to them as I am everyone else?

They should have the same legal benefits from the State as everyone else. they do here in NC. I can't marry another man and get State recognition of the union, and they can't either. Of course for me it's really a non-issue. I don't care if the State recognizes my relationships or not. I'm not going to beg them to, or invite them in to my personal life.

I am better than the State, and know better what is good for me. I neither need nor desire their approval.

I got away from asking my parents what I could and couldn't do a long time ago, too. if I don't ask anyone's permission, they can't say "no".

Originally posted by NullVoid

Gay marriage = civil partnership agreement. Nothing religious about it.

If you are going to go that route,

straight marriage = civil partnership agreement. The state is not a religious organization.

reply to post by NullVoid

Tell me, can there be a gay christian ?

Keep in mind that first amendment mumbo jumbo, freedom of religion and stuff.

Well, gays can practice Christian dogma, but a man sitting in a hen house calling himself a chicken ain't exactly a hen now, is he?

God makes it perfectly clear, he calls homosexuality an abomination. To claim otherwise is just sophistry.

But i say leave it to God. only he can tell who is a true christian and who isn't.

And many people are going to have a rude awakening when they meet their maker.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone

"God makes it perfectly clear, he calls homosexuality an abomination."
Did god write an article or something ? You know not all christians believe in bible. Alteast most people don't interpret it literally. Don't forget this is not the only religion in the world.

You know by definition if you believe that there was a man called Jesus Christ who was crucified and the resurrected after dieing you're christian.
You don't have to believe in the holy trinity, you don't even have to believe in the holy books.

"To claim otherwise is just sophistry."
Deny ignorance, my friend