World leaders promoting tolerance; but what do you really know about Islam?

Originally posted by Grambler

Originally posted by TRGreer


I think this goes back to what we had discussed previously in this thread about being spoon fed hate. People listen to the anti-Muslim propaganda and buy into it completely never even bothering to find the facts out for themselves. I think the real threat from Islam to these people isn't the violence or extremist. Its the fact that more and more people convert to Islam everyday. They fear the death of their religion through loss of practitioners. I wonder if this is how the pagans felt when their beliefs were crushed. The real question here I think is what are they really afraid of?

I'll try this one last time...

I'm not exhibiting any hate here, I'm only interested at getting to the truth of the issue.

The only reason Im being persistant it that you, Cooler, and Deadsnow seem to be very reasonable people who know way more about Islam than me, so I was looking for an honest answer from you.

I'll just stick to one point. My concern with Islam is that a seeming large amount of moderate Muslims call for violence for rather innoculous things.

My example is Salman Rushdie, A death sentence (fatwa) was called on him in 1988 because he wrote a book that gave a different version of Muhammed in a fictional sense. In addition to the unrefutable fact that many many Muslims had rallies in support of this, in my research, it seems that almost every Islamic group, even the moderate ones, either supported this or refused to condemn it.

That is what concerns me. I'm not afraid of what the Qu'ran actually says, I'm afraid of what the people following it are actually doing.

My questions are this; am I wrong in my reading of this support, and if so can you provide me with some sites that show this? Are you in favor of this fatwa personally, and if not does it concern you that so many moderates are, and can you see how this type of action would frighten nonbelivers?

Peace,

I'd like to attempt to address this.

First of all, "fatwa", despite popular opinion does not mean a death sentence, that's just what the media have spun it into. A Fatwa is a religious ruling, issued by a "religious leader". It is not something that can be issued "on" somebody. What was put on him was no more than a bounty.

Second, in many predominantly muslim countries, such as Pakistan, Saudi, ETC. they adhere to a strict code of etiquette when it comes to figures in Islamic history. It is more of a western concept to infuse fiction with history, and that is frowned upon as a result of the CULTURE in their countries. As a result of the way Islam spread, a lot of muslims all over the world have small infusions here and there of a eastern culture. Personally I would never support Salman's book, but that was a choice he made. I would never kill him, nor would I support his murder. I would more than likely condemn what he did if I knew him, but more so in a coat pulling manner. This is NOT the mind frame of a lot of muslims though, as unfortunate as it is.

The reason why "moderate" groups didn't condemn the "radicals" was most likely because they didn't want to seem like they were supporting the book.

Unfortunately Islam, in the eyes of the west, is mixed with Pakistani and Saudi Arabian culture and people can't see the difference because they don't read the Qur'an at all, or they read it with goggles on.

And God knows best..

Originally posted by TRGreer
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

 

There is so much more! Was this really necessary? The more this argument drags the more I am drawn to one conclusion. This fear of Islam isn't about extremist violence. Its about Christianity's fear of no longer being the most dominate religion in the world.

[color=skyblue]"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."

George Bernard Shaw
[color=grey]/ Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936


Islam: Spread By Sword? ask Liam Neeson

'It really makes me think about becoming a Muslim': Liam Neeson considers converting to Islam following trip to Istanbul

'The call to prayer happens five times a day, and for the first week, it drives you crazy, and then it just gets into your spirit, and it's the most beautiful, beautiful thing,' he said.

'There are 4,000 mosques in the city. Some are just stunning, and it really makes me think about becoming a Muslim.'

Did islam spread by force terror events?

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine
Peace,

I'd like to attempt to address this.

First of all, "fatwa", despite popular opinion does not mean a death sentence, that's just what the media have spun it into. A Fatwa is a religious ruling, issued by a "religious leader". It is not something that can be issued "on" somebody. What was put on him was no more than a bounty.

Thanks for taking the time to adress this. Let me start by saying I looked into it, and you are absolutley right about the term fatwa. I was wrong to fall for media hype (should know better by now), and regardless of anything else I thank you for your info here.

Second, in many predominantly muslim countries, such as Pakistan, Saudi, ETC. they adhere to a strict code of etiquette when it comes to figures in Islamic history. It is more of a western concept to infuse fiction with history, and that is frowned upon as a result of the CULTURE in their countries. As a result of the way Islam spread, a lot of muslims all over the world have small infusions here and there of a eastern culture. Personally I would never support Salman's book, but that was a choice he made. I would never kill him, nor would I support his murder. I would more than likely condemn what he did if I knew him, but more so in a coat pulling manner. This is NOT the mind frame of a lot of muslims though, as unfortunate as it is.

The reason why "moderate" groups didn't condemn the "radicals" was most likely because they didn't want to seem like they were supporting the book.

Unfortunately Islam, in the eyes of the west, is mixed with Pakistani and Saudi Arabian culture and people can't see the difference because they don't read the Qur'an at all, or they read it with goggles on.

And God knows best..

For starters Im glad you personally wouldnt advocate the killing of Rushdie.

I see what your saying, but surely you can see why this is off putting to people not involved in Islam. Even if it is just a culture thing, there seems to me to be no excuse for advocating the death of someone for a work of fiction they've done. And to be afraid to condemn it because it seems that you may be in favor of the book seems to be a poor excuse.

Murder is murder, right? And just for the record, people in conjunction with the book were murdered I believe, and rallies are still being held advocating the death of Rushdie (just this year in India).

I see that your saying the Qu'ran itself doesn't say this, and I respect that you are probably right about this. However, Im more concerned with how the mainstream Islamic audience is interpreting it, and they seem to think this call to murder was ok.

I respect people religion and theyre right to pratice it, just as I in return would hope people will respect my beliefs. When one religious group says, "by the way, if you talk about our history in a way in which we don't like, we will call for you to be killed", thats over the line. I think if mainstream Muslims arent willing to give this up, then others are justified of their criticisms of Islam.

Originally posted by Grambler

For starters Im glad you personally wouldnt advocate the killing of Rushdie.

I see what your saying, but surely you can see why this is off putting to people not involved in Islam. Even if it is just a culture thing, there seems to me to be no excuse for advocating the death of someone for a work of fiction they've done. And to be afraid to condemn it because it seems that you may be in favor of the book seems to be a poor excuse.

Murder is murder, right? And just for the record, people in conjunction with the book were murdered I believe, and rallies are still being held advocating the death of Rushdie (just this year in India).

I see that your saying the Qu'ran itself doesn't say this, and I respect that you are probably right about this. However, Im more concerned with how the mainstream Islamic audience is interpreting it, and they seem to think this call to murder was ok.

I respect people religion and theyre right to pratice it, just as I in return would hope people will respect my beliefs. When one religious group says, "by the way, if you talk about our history in a way in which we don't like, we will call for you to be killed", thats over the line. I think if mainstream Muslims arent willing to give this up, then others are justified of their criticisms of Islam.

We in the west would call murder reprehensible for such a thing but again, that's them. That's what they do, over there. Islam doesn't call for the death sentence for apostasy, their culture does. The goggles that most people in the west see Islam through are either the goggles of the media (if ur not muslim) or the goggles of a foreigner (if ur a convert to Islam or a second or third generation western muslim). People are too lazy to sift through it.

Their culture, is theirs, and whether I agree with it or not I will respect it, simply off the basis of it being another's culture. I will not however indulge.

I don't condemn people who condemn Islam just off hand. My first effort would be to get them to actually TRY to understand the core of Islam which is the Qur'an. If you read the Qur'an, on your own, and disagree, then that's fine. However if one looks at the media, Jihadwatch.com, and other sources like so, then I can't respect ones disagreement with Islam because regardless what one may think: if their source is the media or jihadwatch, they know nothing about Islam.

reply to post by Grambler


You know, when I see some Muslim leader from out there in the middle east sticks call for the death of someone "dissing" Islam, I can't help but think of the absurdity surrounding the hypervigilant Scientologists.

It is a sure sign of a cult if you seek to use violence, even if discreetly, to eliminate dissention and the loss of membership.

Now, that isn't to say that Islam is, in itself, a cult. I would say that the effect it has on its followers here in the west is convincing that it is a religion in the vein of any other religion. But in the middle east, or anywhere where there is an Imam that has a following that they preach the more extreme concepts to, it would seem to match up with a definition of "cult" quite nicely.

Kind of like the Christian cults that we have seen through US history.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Grambler

 

You know, when I see some Muslim leader from out there in the middle east sticks call for the death of someone "dissing" Islam, I can't help but think of the absurdity surrounding the hypervigilant Scientologists.

It is a sure sign of a cult if you seek to use violence, even if discreetly, to eliminate dissention and the loss of membership.

Now, that isn't to say that Islam is, in itself, a cult. I would say that the effect it has on its followers here in the west is convincing that it is a religion in the vein of any other religion. But in the middle east, or anywhere where there is an Imam that has a following that they preach the more extreme concepts to, it would seem to match up with a definition of "cult" quite nicely.

Kind of like the Christian cults that we have seen through US history.

I would agree with you. There is cultism within Islam, however it isn't a part of Islam.

I don't trust "clergy". I'm among the small group that frowns at the general population of imams and self proclaimed scholars.

reply to post by My.mind.is.mine


And that is what i am talking about. You can find sanity, or insanity, within any belief system. Look at the story of the Buddhist extremists (as absurd as that sounds). Any belief system can be exploited by people who would make it a system of insanity.

I appreciate your viewpoint that there need not be a man between you and your God. That is the way it should be. Hats off!

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine

We in the west would call murder reprehensible for such a thing but again, that's them. That's what they do, over there. Islam doesn't call for the death sentence for apostasy, their culture does. The goggles that most people in the west see Islam through are either the goggles of the media (if ur not muslim) or the goggles of a foreigner (if ur a convert to Islam or a second or third generation western muslim). People are too lazy to sift through it.

Fair enough. I guess Im guilty of looking trhough the lens of a foreigner.

I again admit I haven't read the Qu'ran (which is something I intend to do), and you apparently have. But I almost guarentee that like almost all religious texts of antiquity, ther are many ways to intepret it. Therefore you have your opinion on what its says, but thats not the end all be all because its your interpretation.

I bet if I asked someone who does advocate the death sentence for apostasy, they would say the Qu'ran justifies it. Because of this, I don't think the culture argument matters much.

If the text is vague enough to allow huge amount of its follwers to advocate this, then I feel justified in criticizing it.

Their culture, is theirs, and whether I agree with it or not I will respect it, simply off the basis of it being another's culture. I will not however indulge.

Ok but heres the problem. Youre in a paradox. Their culture calls for the death of anyone who criticzes them in a certain way, my culture celbrates free speech. By respecting their culture, you disrespect mine.

Its like the old saying, the right to swing your fist stops where my nose begins. In other words, I respect your beliefs up to the point where those beliefs call for the restriction of other peoples beliefs.

What if a culture calls for the death of people of a certain color, do you respect that?

The other point is with so many people of the Islamic faith in the west claiming we should respect their culture, why are they so unwilling to respect ours in such a small way of, "Please dont kill people for excercising free speech". Its give and take, and on this issue, there seems to be no give.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan


And that is what i am talking about. You can find sanity, or insanity, within any belief system. Look at the story of the Buddhist extremists (as absurd as that sounds). Any belief system can be exploited by people who would make it a system of insanity.

I appreciate your viewpoint that there need not be a man between you and your God. That is the way it should be. Hats off!

I agree. But I am not talking about extremist, I am talking about a mainstream view within people that practice Islam.

This to me is unique to Islam. Even though all religions have extremist, I can't see Wiccans or Jews or Christians or whatever calling for the death of an author because they wrote a fictitious book about their religion. But that is a very mainstream view of people whom pratice Islam.

I agree that its good that My mind doesn't need a man to come in between with his relationship with good. But I think both of you would agree that he is the exception, not the rule. So in that sense, yes, all religion can have people that are extrem on both ends, extremly bad or extremly good.

But we shouldnt judge these groups on the extremes, we should judge them on their mainstream views. And thats where Im at, it frightens me that it is a mainstream view in Islam that if you are percieved of criticizing theyre religion, it is justified to murder you.

reply to post by Grambler



Well....I have heard some outcry from Christians over various books, bands, movies, and video games over the years. Growing up in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, I have known lots of very aggressive Christians.

Having said that, they don't represent the vast majority of Christians that I know.

I don't have the pleasure of having the opportunity to know many Muslim people, being where I am geographically. However, of those I have met, violence is the least likely thing to see arise in their daily life. Like i said in a previous post....when you really evaluate your Muslim neighbors, you find out that they are just like you. They are still, afterall, human. No amount of demonizing will change that.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Grambler

 

Well....I have heard some outcry from Christians over various books, bands, movies, and video games over the years. Growing up in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, I have known lots of very aggressive Christians.

Having said that, they don't represent the vast majority of Christians that I know.

I don't have the pleasure of having the opportunity to know many Muslim people, being where I am geographically. However, of those I have met, violence is the least likely thing to see arise in their daily life. Like i said in a previous post....when you really evaluate your Muslim neighbors, you find out that they are just like you. They are still, afterall, human. No amount of demonizing will change that.

Hey no doubt your right, and Im not trying to demonize. Ive only personally know two Muslims well, one was the nicest most pacifistic guy you would ever meet, the other, well... was pretty extreme. But the first guy I mentioned said everyone he knew hated the guys extremists views.

Thing is these are Muslims that are living in this country. Perhaps thier beliefs are different to those of other Muslims, and if the common belief of Muslims around the world is that they want to kill me if I criticize them, then I have the right to get upset. And before you say that isn't a common belief, understand that even my.mind admits that this is a very common belief.

I am just saying that almost every Muslim leader or group I saw about the Rushdie incident endorsed it or refused to condemn it, and that its reasons like this why there is so much confusion about what Islam actually teaches.

I'll address the questions point-by-point.

Originally posted by Grambler

My questions are this; am I wrong in my reading of this support, and if so can you provide me with some sites that show this?

Well no offense but I haven't seen evidence of your claim that "every" group of Muslims supported the fatwa. So I can't really address this without knowing what I'm addressing.

Are you in favor of this fatwa personally

No. But if I remember correctly the fatwa has since been rescinded.

and if not does it concern you that so many moderates are

Well again you haven't provided evidence that "so many moderates are" in favor of this fatwa. But if anyone favors this fatwa, it of course concerns me.

and can you see how this type of action would frighten nonbelivers?

Yes.

Now, I want to make a point about this "fatwa." The Ayatollah is the one who issued this fatwa. The Ayatollah is a Shi'a leader. Why Sunnis would endorse a fatwa by a Shi'a religious leader is beyond me. But the Ayatollah is NOT the religious leader of all Muslims. He does not hold authority over all Muslims.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

What a load of crap. To say that Muslims are somehow being 'political' when they enact Jihad against any and all who disagree with Islam is tantamount to lying.

It's not "a load of crap." But you are now showing your attitude and I can see you will not be willing to listen to truth. Also I didn't say that Muslims are being political when they enact jihad. Also Muslims can't just "enact jihad." It has to be called for by an Islamic khilafah (and there are NONE in the entire world. Iran is a Republic and Saudi Arabia is a kingdom.)

Jihadi violence is not 'political'

Again, not what I said. What I said was a lot of times when Muslims use religion to justify their attacks, their reasoning is ACTUALLY political. They just use religion and religious terminology to appeal to the impressionable youth's emotions.

Therefore, the forbidden becomes permissible if it supports Jihad in any way, shape or form.

Show me where the Qur'an says that.

Lying, while forbidden in the Koran, is permissible in the context of promoting Islam, equal to the use of force is guile, and however you are able to promote the advance of Islam, you are encouraged to do so.

Prove it. Show me where you found this in the Qur'an. Or are you another person using the false definition of taqiyya that we've debunked ad infinitum?

Therefore, I know that your religion permits lying,

Prove it. The only time "lying" is allowed is if you are afraid for your life. You can say you are not a Muslim if you think your life or livelihood will be in danger.

Why should we trust anything you say, when the evidence (and there's loads) clearly stands against the ''It's political'' nonsense you just spouted?

There we have it. Since I'm a Muslim you automatically stereotype me and you outright claim you can't trust me. Then why even ask me questions? All you are going to do is call me a liar and continue to live with your bigoted delusions about Islam.

So it is clear that you have no desire to learn anything about Islam. You have proved that. Your OP is not about finding the truth about Islam. It's not even about "what do you really know about Islam." It's about spreading your poisoned view and your hate of Islam.

Therefore I will no longer waste any time even attempting to discuss Islam with you. I'll focus on people who ask genuine questions and are seeking real answers.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


IMO and every single Muslim I've spoken to, 'Jihad', it's a spiritual battle with temptation and has nothing to do with violence. Once again people are infiltrating Mosques and brainwashing the youth..., As for the 72 virgins, it has also been mistranslated from 'Angels'.

reply to post by iIuminaIi

reply to post by Grambler


All it takes it one idiot to ignite a fire of hatred and a hundred empty headed people following him chanting death threats. Murder in Islam is unforgivable, and one can only harm an enemy in self defense. Like the poster above said, if you read it and you still believe it is a religion of violence that's alright...at least you bothered to read the book and your opinions will be respected. If you go through this thread you will realize that almost everyone attacking Islam has never bothered studying the religion.

Their culture calls for the death of anyone who criticzes them in a certain way, my culture celbrates free speech. By respecting their culture, you disrespect mine.

This is not correct, as I stated above you can only attack in self defense. Like BigFatFurryTexan stated above, they're small cults that brainwash the youth, This is why one must come to his/her own conclusion.

Originally posted by Grambler

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Grambler

 

Well....I have heard some outcry from Christians over various books, bands, movies, and video games over the years. Growing up in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, I have known lots of very aggressive Christians.

Having said that, they don't represent the vast majority of Christians that I know.

I don't have the pleasure of having the opportunity to know many Muslim people, being where I am geographically. However, of those I have met, violence is the least likely thing to see arise in their daily life. Like i said in a previous post....when you really evaluate your Muslim neighbors, you find out that they are just like you. They are still, afterall, human. No amount of demonizing will change that.

Hey no doubt your right, and Im not trying to demonize. Ive only personally know two Muslims well, one was the nicest most pacifistic guy you would ever meet, the other, well... was pretty extreme. But the first guy I mentioned said everyone he knew hated the guys extremists views.

Thing is these are Muslims that are living in this country. Perhaps thier beliefs are different to those of other Muslims, and if the common belief of Muslims around the world is that they want to kill me if I criticize them, then I have the right to get upset. And before you say that isn't a common belief, understand that even my.mind admits that this is a very common belief.

I am just saying that almost every Muslim leader or group I saw about the Rushdie incident endorsed it or refused to condemn it, and that its reasons like this why there is so much confusion about what Islam actually teaches.

Yea, i have no idea how Muslims in other countries view the US, or "infidels". I know what the news says...but that is mostly stuff fed to them by government officials with their ulterior motives. So I really don't know.

But I don't wish death on anyone who has had their mind poisoned by a cult. They may want to kill me, and if they did I would respond appropriately, but that does not mean that I have to actually wish death on them. Instead of seeking some kind of mutual hatred to share, I choose to have pity instead. I pity any person whose mind is so poisoned that they would want to kill me for a difference in opinoin.

My hope would be that, like in just about any other situation, showing some understanding may keep us from burning a bridge that, while not ready to be crossed today, will be ready to be crossed some time in the future. Besides, we are talking about some of the poorest people on Earth. Their ability to reach me is fairly highly diminished. Those are some mighty big oceans between here and there.

reply to post by Grambler


Thank you for continuing to ask the right questions. I know you probably don't agree with my hard-fisted approach to exposing the inverse morality of the Koran, but I appreciate that you are genuinely seeking to understand why violence is such a widespread proclivity among Muslims across the globe.


Something I forgot to mention. I find it frustrating that when I criticise the actual doctrine of Islam, which leads people to do horrific things to other people, I see that some people on ATS are more concerned about non-related concepts such as 'who wrote the bulk of the New Testament'. Utterly irrelevant deflection, which fails to even understand the purpose of what I've written.

What matters is not so much 'who wrote it?', as 'what behaviour does the application of the doctrine/instruction produce in its followers?'

The application of Christian doctrine as found in the New Testament should lead to peaceable, friendly and charitable people, who support each other and are good to those around them. The fact that this doesn't always happen is a demonstration of the true nature of Humanity - we are flawed, and are in need of grace, forgiveness etc. This is not an excuse for the bad behaviour of Christians, but a simple fact. Yes, we are called to forgive those who offend us, but CRUCIALLY we are also called to challenge each other to live a life worthy of the calling of Christ. We are not permitted to lie, under any circumstances, and corporate violence against others is limited to 'last-ditch self-defence', where the preservation of freedom and protection of innocents is the paramount concern.

The truthful, loving and charitable nature of a true Christian lifestyle is clearly not evident as the result of the strict application of the doctrine of Islam, which permits any use of force or guile if it advances the cause of Islam. In several places in the Koran the followers are told to wage war against unbelievers, and I'm sorry, but anyone who claims this isn't the case is wearing Rose-Tinted Islamic Specs.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

I know what the news says...but that is mostly stuff fed to them by government officials with their ulterior motives.

Not true. Sorry, but you really haven't got a clue, as you admit yourself in the comment from which I lifted the above quote. I will be bringing a lot of evidence of the behaviour of Islamists to the table shortly, and I would appreciate it if you could look at the evidence with an open mind. You will be horrified at the scale and perversion of the violent activities of those who claim fundamental adherence to Islamic doctrine.

We in the West are drip-fed a tiny fraction of the brutalities of Islam around the world, and if they showed what really goes on, you wouldn't be able to eat your dinner while the news was on.

'TPTB' in the West are corrupt. Fact. I do not support them.

But Islam too is corrupt, at the very heart of its doctrine. The fundamental morality of the Koran is inverse, but the darkness is carefully veiled in a stack of seemingly righteous instructions.

The Devil feeds you a lake of truth in order to disguise the taste of a cupful of poison.

reply to post by DeadSnow


You do not understand your own religion, clearly. It is not 'small minorities', it is a widespread and unstoppable wave of perverse doctrine, and diabolical fatwas - which allow for anything, including the murder of women and children - so long as it advances the cause of Islam.

I will be putting the evidence up soon, and if you take the goggles off for a few moments, you might see through your own self-delusion.

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

I know what the news says...but that is mostly stuff fed to them by government officials with their ulterior motives.

Not true. Sorry, but you really haven't got a clue, as you admit yourself in the comment from which I lifted the above quote. I will be bringing a lot of evidence of the behaviour of Islamists to the table shortly, and I would appreciate it if you could look at the evidence with an open mind. You will be horrified at the scale and perversion of the violent activities of those who claim fundamental adherence to Islamic doctrine.

We in the West are drip-fed a tiny fraction of the brutalities of Islam around the world, and if they showed what really goes on, you wouldn't be able to eat your dinner while the news was on.

'TPTB' in the West are corrupt. Fact. I do not support them.

But Islam too is corrupt, at the very heart of its doctrine. The fundamental morality of the Koran is inverse, but the darkness is carefully veiled in a stack of seemingly righteous instructions.

The Devil feeds you a lake of truth in order to disguise the taste of a cupful of poison.

The only evidence that will matter to me is personal experience. If you are not going to actually go out and meet Muslims before passing judgement on Muslims, you are doing it all wrong. You don't need an open mind to participate in prejudice.