Did the Holocaust Really Happen?

READ MY ENTIRE POST

THIS is the kind of thread that makes me stay away from ATS for longer times on hiatus. The people on here who never read the darned OP and just use the internet to vent their spleen and jump on someone else the dont agree with... yet they have no idea if they agree with them or not cause no one bothers to read the kakadoodie OP!

Okay:
Yes, the holocaust happened. I can understand why people deny it or lessen it though. Ive also seen good evidence that some things we believe are truth because they have been repeated enough arent really the truth. Its easy enough to find the truth... if some could spend time on it, but I doubt they will if they cant even take a few minutes to read an OP. I can absolutely see why some deny it. Because even in the towns surrounding the concentration camps the people denied it. Ever seen the films of the german citizens that the allies forced to walk to the camps and witness it? Yep.. denial is a pretty all encompassing thing when a person is denying such a horror in your own back yard. Denial and a washing of the hands approach is even deeper when it involved a person or a people you dislike.. or even actively hate.


OP.. did you know that Hitler et al used the concept of the Indian Reservation as a blueprint for the concentration camp?? Im 100% Blackfeet ( Piegan) and my father was a rabid anti-BIAer..who was raised on Rez and refused for me to be.... and refused for me to take ANY entitlements associated with my blood. He preached this in great detail when I was a kid.. the prototype of the concentration camp being the Rez. There is a LOT to think about concerning this...

reply to post by Biliverdin


As a medico-nazi , eugenicist manual , bound with fascist national socialism we learn a lot from it.

National socialism is what is now being promoted consistently , being a good anti-terrorist citizen , pulling your weight for society .
use of his ideas , brought into modern state extremism , zero-tolerance nazis
you've got to be into social nationalism for the olympics too , , they're there to try be the best slave , the one who has golden handle attatched to his yolk

Originally posted by Gauss
reply to post by Donkey_Dean

 

I mean that clearly, ATS members wrote the hateful responses to the thread, so ATS members should also have to stand for them.

You take the good with the bad, after all it is just speech and well that is a protected civil liberty here in the USA. Words are not the only things that build bridges here. People are pissed because they see a clear Israeli influence in our affairs, and well we hate the tyranny that is unfolding here in the US. We hate to feel as though we are the new Nazi's.

It makes it easy for one to attack on this front, but in the end we know that it is just the Supremacist Rabbinic Hate that we dislike, and the good people of Israel are just as helpless as ourselves in this struggle with tyranny.

Here in the US you cannot say anything contrary to the Jewish faith because if your do you will be blacklisted, not unlike the congressional communist witch hunts of yesteryear. Just look at Mel Gibson and man he just made a movie about the life of Christ. The Bias and forced control is easy to see and it angers many millions! You reap what you sow, and as such when you sow the seeds of mistrust and tyranny you reap discontent!

The is America not Israel!

I for one have no doubt that millions of Jews died in the Nazi death camps, but why is that even relevant at all? There are only a handful alive that had any part of it! Does it mean that we should become like those we fear?

It is ignorant to deny the obvious simple truth here. Unchecked hate begets more hate! One killing just lays the foundation for another. One sides suicide bomber is another's freedom fighter!

Americans are not the only ones growing fed up!



It is possible to stand against tyranny and still support the good people of Israel! I for one don't think that destabilizing the whole region works to Israel's advantage at all. Which begs the question of whos interest we really serve, and why we serve at all.

I for one think that any found meddling with our internal affairs should be strung up. Israeli, Saudi whatever they might be. The foreign lobby should be abolished and a complete overall of our electoral process should happen.

I see only one terrorist state in the region causing instability and actively pursuing war with its neighbors! If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I would say it's a duck!

So many American see our war upon defenseless Afghanistan and Iraq as a test of military might, but in reality a war with any super power will see war upon our shores and an end of the America we all know. If we have issues covering the cost of these pathetic wars, what will we do when the # really hits the fan?

When will the madness end? Let's pray it does not take war upon our shores to wake up from this nightmare.

Enjoy these waning moments of liberty where we can still spread it around. (Enjoy this season while it lasts, the internet is a loophole that the American elite are trying desperately to plug.)

Originally posted by Ketsa
6 million in gas chambers ? Maybe not.

Nobody claims that they were. The six million figure came from the Germans themselves, that was the estimate given from their own records. But, proud as they were of their actions, they bragged. It has since been considerably revised, repeatedly so. The number of Jews killed, as a direct result of being Jewish, is approximately 4.5 million.

Apart from the books written immediately following the war, like Russell's The Scourge of the Nazis, the figure of six million is not used by any legitimate historian, so to argue it, from a historians perspective, now, is beyond ridiculous, and only further adds to the confusion, and that is their, Faurisson et als, purpose.

Those that were specifically killed for being Jewish, who were transported directly to the Death Camps and murdered without selection, is approximately 1.75 million. Again, this is a matter of open record, the subject of numerous books. Revision takes place all the time as new information comes to light, and studies are carried out by legitimate historians.

Additionally, 3.5 million Slavs and ethnic Poles were summarily rounded up and murdered in actions carried out by the Einsatzgruppen. Approximately 1.5 million of those were also Jewish. Yet, again, a matter of historical record.

There were many and numerous crimes against humanity committed by the Nazis during the Third Reich, all of them have been studied ad infinitum, all of them are subject to scrutiny, all of them have been subject to revision and in some cases expansion. Mass graves are still being discovered, which adds new insight all the time. The archives of the Red Army, the records that they retrieved during the liberations that they carried out, are still relatively unexplored, and I am sure that even more understanding will be gained from them, and more changes to the historical record.

Faurisson would have us believe that no such research is carried out, and that anyone who questions the 6 million figure will find themselves persecuted, while the myriad of books and historians that do just that tell an entirely different story. Faurisson may be very convincing, but isn't any con artist?

Originally posted by Viking9019
immigration-globalization.blogspot.co.uk...

The effects of propaganda are EXTREMELY powerful wouldn't you say?

edit on 18/7/12 by Viking9019 because: (no reason given)

that blog is a piece of crap. makes blanket generalizations about americans and to top it off the tool thinks that war is caused by race.. it is caused by power hungry people who use things as religion, social, political ideologies and race to raise tension for war. some people are too dense to see that.

Originally posted by EvanB

Even from the spiritual sense.. Can you argue that a very small group of Jews (Jesus and the disciples) did not profoundly affect the human race, culture, law and so on? Literally billions of people??

As for science the Jews have contributed more Nobel winners in terms of ethnic/cultural group than any other per capita.

I suspect I will not dissuade you from your thesis; which doesn't trouble me much. I do not wish to create lists of contributions for 'nationalities' or 'ethnicities' because that would detract from the OP; which is about the contemporary reflections of the Nazi regime as reported by members of the JW church.

Yours was such a glaring and bold assertion that I was taken aback by it; not offended nor inclined to argue about why I disagree with any such position as "X people have contributed more to mankind than any other." That would be a matter for another discussion entirely. (I will confess I would question your metrics for such an assertion, but that's as far as I would go here.)

reply to post by EvanB


there is little doubt that people of the Jewish faith have contributed mightily to modern science, and other arts...

Just remember this before you get all fired confident that their contributions far outweigh those of any other group...

Much of what they had to work with came, or was based upon, from the works of those whose faith followed the teachings of Islam, or various sects of Christianity.

All advancements of today follow along trails blazed by those before them. You really shouldn't forget that.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by EvanB

 

there is little doubt that people of the Jewish faith have contributed mightily to modern science, and other arts...

Just remember this before you get all fired confident that their contributions far outweigh those of any other group...

Much of what they had to work with came, or was based upon, from the works of those whose faith followed the teachings of Islam, or various sects of Christianity.

All advancements of today follow along trails blazed by those before them. You really shouldn't forget that.

Not only that, and to be topical, the Jewish contribution to the remarkable Nazi science was critical to it even being a possibility. The Weimer Germany was very encouraging of knowledge and culture.

Did the Holocaust Really Happen?

Yes it did without any question! Will it happen again? Yes most likely it will, but the way things are going now the victims of the last will be the Gestapo of the next.

It all starts with hate, and Israel is ate up with it! If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I would say it's a duck!

Really what is more relevant an event from the past that we can never change or current events that many feel are leading in the same direction?

A million Iraqis have died in the last ten years is that not enough? Should we destabilize the whole middle east? Will that not bring war on Israel? What about all those people who will not submit to the new goverments? Send them to the death camps?

Really are we not the new Nazi's here?

Should we just surrender our liberty in pursuit of this? Enough already! How many good Americans laid down their lives to defeat Hitler? The price has been paid and justice has prevailed!

I just want to say I really hate intentionally misleading, attention grabbing titles like this. Let your post speak for itself, why resort to such petty tactics?

Today, those that deny the Holocaust essentially are opportunistic. That is most of those who survived the camps have died of old age. Makes it much easier to claim that those who wrote about it were liars.

BUT US president Eisenhower who was a 5 star general during the war. At the end of the war he visited the camps, was so horrified that he had the residents of surrounding villages brought through the camps so that no one, not even the Germans who lived close by, could ever deny what was done in the camps.

Even the German Bureaucrats come to the rescue with their own damming notation. That is the Germans were methodical about keeping track of everything that happened in the country. You can find out what trains were used, how many cars on the train, who were the engineers etc. The number of each identifiable group that were sent to any particular camp on any day. The names of those so sent. The names of those that died on route. and on and on. Likewise in the camps the same scrupulous effort was given to daily camp life.

They also kept track of the names of those who died, and on what date. Some records were destroyed in an effort to keep those records from the Allies, but in fact most records survived in Berlin that had been shipped to Berlin during the war. So there are backup records as well.

Just using the information of who died on any particular day will show that the numbers don't represent statistical accounts of natural attrition. Indeed when thousands died every day, the only explanation can be that they were systematically murdered. The murder could be a bullet or starvation, or other means.

Someone mentioned the trains not bringing food to the camps. Actually most of the trains made their destinations. Camp slave labor rebuilt switches, laid track, and rebuilt bridges to keep the system working.
(I happen to have known very well a man who worked on such a gang rebuilding RR switches and installing them. He has since died of old age.) If you were of value to the camp, you received a ration. If you were of no value, you starved. Starvation is cheaper than bullets or gas.

Food also was of significant value to feed the troops and the population that were not imprisoned. Look at photos of the troops. They were very thin as well. Frankly there was a shortage of food and all but the hierarchy had to do without. (What else is new?!)

The crematoriums were built and operated because the number of bodies made burial problematic. Bodies take space, and require digging with construction equipment which required fuel to operate. Apparently the cost of fueling a crematorium is less than digging vast holes.

One of the drawbacks of the crematoriums was the output of white dust which blanketed the nearby landscape and villages. One would think the villagers would have eventually figured out the source of the white dust. In fact the odor of roasting flesh was pervasive because the crematoriums were not efficient.

I've personally know at least 6 people who survived the camps, and came to the USA. They all tell similar stories.

the holocaust happened but like my grandmother told me who was in a camp during ww2, the numbers were greatly exaggerated. She has her tattoo on her arm, and to her dying day she said the numbers were lies, it was propaganda to promote several agendas. Yes there were atrocities, but there was nowhere near the millions supposedly in the camps.

and I will honor my grandmother and I will believe her over any bullsham media anyday cause she lived it. She saw it, was moved between different camps at one point, went to many holocaust survivor meetings and they all claim very fervently the numbers were inflated and many many lies told to inflate the atrocities.

My grandmother says the lies told about the holocaust are just as damaging to the victims as what really happened, the liars should be lumped in with those that committed the atrocities in her opinion.

there was no 6 million...

there was a holocaust, but nowhere near what was claimed, and many things that supposedly happened, did not.

there was already so much evil occuring there was no reason for the allies or whoever to keep inflating it over the years and the liars do worse to the memory than the actual holocaust itself did.

So.. what you're saying is. Every single bit of history regarding to the holocaust is falsified? That every single account in which these Jews suffered were as well falsified and throughout time these people have all been under a cover story? That the "Nazis" were simply the fall guys?

Wow I thought people on here were nuts, but this tops it off.

Congrats but this is something I can't even try to believe.

Did the holocaust happen? sort of.

Were jews gassed? no

Were the Nuremberg trials a # show based on "eyewitness testimony?" yes

Were there camps built? yes

Was Zyklon B used? Yes, as a fumigant and pesticide, what it was designed for, not gassing jews

Were jews mistreated? yes, but not to the extent that is commonly portrayed

Does "eyewitness testimony" stand up to math? No

So, yes it happened, the figures are totally over blown as are the atrocities.

reply to post by SubAce

Numerous military ppl went and saw the death camps in person.

Some german citizens were forced at gunpoint to help clean them up.

Were some of the stories such as lamp shades of human skin real ???

Maybe not, but the ovens for cremating bodies were real, and so was Zyklon B.

Zyklon B

reply to post by SubAce


When I first saw the title of this thread, I groaned.

I thought not another Neo-Nazi, Hitler-worshipping, Holocaust-denier.

But I took the time to read the OP and was pleasantly surprised to find this is really about the Jehovah's Witnesses resisting the Nazis.

I mean there are an alarming number of anti-Semites and Holocaust-deniers on ATS. The actual camp survivors are dying out and it seems to me that more & more deniers are surfacing.

I haven't had a chance to read all 15 pages of this thread, but it should be interesting.

S&F, SubAce.

reply to post by beerbaron2002


And you base your conclusions on what, may I ask?

Originally posted by SubAce
...
This statement was made by Viking9019 in response to a comment about Jehovah’s Witnesses speaking out against the atrocities perpetrated upon the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies and others, while the rest of main-stream religion stood by silently, and even helped Hitler achieve the power he needed to perpetrate these crimes against humanity...

I have no desire to cast aspersions about your beliefs and religious history but what we have seen in modern times is the considerable lengths that people will go to in order to demonise a country or its leaders to further a political cause. We saw it in Afghanistan, Iraq, Honduras, Libya, Iran and currently Syria with no end of organizations and media outlets willing to repeat the unfounded reports generated by the western governments' propaganda spinners.

I and many others know, in retrospect, that this was true in Vietnam, Haiti, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama and Grenada, to name just a few. Was the demonisation of Hitler and the National Socialists (Nazi's) just another example of this process? It depends on who you trust and I, for one, don't trust a single word that the official historians have to say.

Originally posted by JohnJasper
Was the demonisation of Hitler and the National Socialists (Nazi's) just another example of this process? It depends on who you trust and I, for one, don't trust a single word that the official historians have to say.

As Churchill said, 'I know that history will be kind to me, because I intend to write it.' (or close enough without looking up the actual quote).

It works both ways though, and too many when rejecting one version of history will simply take up another, equally extreme version as it is presented. The issues surrounding any history are seldom black and white, but it takes effort to find the whole or bigger picture, the laziness of the inquirer is relied upon, most want information laid out to them on a plate. Both sides in this debate, the one that tells you that Hitler and the Nazis were virulent monsters, and the other that says the Holocaust is a Zionist fabrication, rely upon prejudice and ignorance, and aim squarely at the lowest common denominator.

Mass murder undoubtably occured, the causes and motivations of that mass murder though are not necessarily what history would have us believe. Both sides serve to prevent proper and thorough scrutiny being applied to that, and instead aim to provoke knee-jerk conflicts of belief.

reply to post by SubAce


I just went thru 15 pages of this thread. I think more than half the people who responded never bothered to read the OP.

There's only a tiny handful of people on this thread who have actually researched the Holocaust.

I can understand the recent RANT threads bemoaning the current state of ATS.