I think, therefore I AM

reply to post by Ranong


Hate to rain on it, but he was speaking to the priests at that point. Quoting out of context, you know. He was telling the priests that they were mouthpieces of "God", and therefore were holy in the land of men.

Yep, you got me there! quoting religous leaders is a murky business! My point is that I believe, for me, that god is consciousness. It is prime connection to the universe and each other at our base level. We as humans on this plane of existance of five sense reality can and DO create the life we experience using our consciousness, it is our "god spark" so to say. Who is god? there is hundreds of different answers. What is god? consciousness. We all have it. We are all gods because we create our own worlds.
"Mind is the master power that moulds and makes, and man is mind, and evermore he takes the tool of thought,and, shaping what he wills, brings forth a thousand joys, a thousand ills:-
He thinks in secret, and it comes to pass: Enviorment is but his looking-glass "
James Allen
As a man thinketh.

reply to post by Ranong


Don't worry, I agree. If a spore from a mushroom can grow and become a new mushroom, how can we be made from the essence of a god and not become like gods ourselves?

The question is whether we DESERVE to be like gods. In my humble opinion, I don't think we're ready yet.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
When God identified itself, it simply said, "I am the I am." Quite possibly the only admission as to what exactly its nature is. As I pondered this, I recalled a very famous quote: "I think, therefore I am."

So what if...and I do realize this is a bit of a stretch, but WHAT IF...God was saying, "I am thought"?

That's not what God was saying. Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh is one of the seven names of God that the Jews hold sacred (you're not even supposed to say or write them) and it means, essentially, "I AM" -- I exist, have always existed, always will. I am existence itself, some might say.

So your alternative suggestion is pretty far from what the original Hebrew Bible reports him as saying, and no good reason (that I can see) to think that text wrong.

reply to post by adjensen


That's correct.

The same reason God also He was the "Alpha and Omega" as well as the "First and the Last".

Here's what I think.

I think people are thinking too much.

Finding God isn't so much about thinking as it is about FEELING.

Close your mind and open up your heart/soul instead.

It's all about the spiritual, not the mind.

Once you open up the soul, the mind will follow and open too.

The key is seeking it with all of your heart. If you're just researching to try and quench some kind of thirst for "knowledge", it most likely won't happen. All of the walls of the mind have to come down first.

Our spiritual nature is much wiser and stronger than our physical one, for our physical nature is limited and eventually dies. I believe there's a difference between consciousness and spiritual consciousness.

AfterInfinity, I thought maybe you had researched the spiritual? No? If so, what did you find?

I don't mean to sound New Age, for as you know, I consider myself to be more of a fundamentalist Christian, but everyone has to start somewhere and it starts with the true desire of the heart/soul.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


My words will only make sense if you consider there is a Higher Intelligence and that the soul, your soul, is real and Immortal by nature.
Yet non are perfect for perfection or refinement IE putting things into a better way is an ongoing purpose.

Higher Intelligence is what manipulates matter and all is matter be it thought itself or a rock
And each is made of a myriad of substances - both known and unknown

Because you have not thought of something does not mean it does not exist.
Our senses limit our experience of all that is - for good reason.
Yet there is nothing that is witheld from us.
We receive the thoughts we need to suit the situation and not our wants.
Yet - You can know anything and everything through thought for we are thought beings and connected to the source of all.

Thought itself is multi faceted in that there are various states of refinement as there is with the soul also
At present the World mostly uses base thought - hence the disharmony

We are all one in reality but individuals also and each has their own purpose within the greater purpose.
We are not makers of our thoughts but receivers yet when using Higher Intelligence we each can be said to be inspired and in accord with the greater purpose and from that stems Peace of Mind.

We are not gods or goddesses - they are archaic ways of thinking from a time when god and goddess meant something quite different from the religious idea today-
god and goddess originally meant Natural Law as in the Universe and upon Earth and also soul realms

Male and Female could be said to be opposite sides of the same coin in this respect
The womb of the Universe gives birth to the stars yet the stars give birth to planets - The soul is sexless in that contains both

Yes I think therefore I am and so are you - Yet we are not thoughts but beings who use thought to interact with matter and have choice.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I think therefore I think I am

Cogito ergo sum is a quote from Rene Descartes, a philosopher, a mathematician and a man, who wrote about the Cartesian mind as being separate from the body in his book Meditations (which you should read for its value)

That being said, I disagree with it. It would be better as "I live; therefore I can exist to think" or something along those lines. The consciousness is the body, not some separate eternal essence.

Conceive this if you can: can a man be born without a body? No. Then how can we assume an eternal consciousness exists, or a soul for that matter? Its all the same thing. Any idea about some eternal consciousness without the body is utterly ridiculous. Consciousness itself cannot exist without the context of a body. It is not infinite. It is not god. It is your body.

Originally posted by Deetermined

I think people are thinking too much.

Finding God isn't so much about thinking as it is about FEELING.

Close your mind and open up your heart/soul instead.

It's all about the spiritual, not the mind.

Close your mind? I shudder at the thought. Next thing you know, you'll be telling us to burn books. This is the reason why humanity has hardly advanced since the dark ages. Without the enlightenment or the renaissance we'd still be thrashing wheat with scythes under tyrannical feudal lords.

reply to post by troubleshooter


Ah, but how can you question your existence if you are able to address it in your thoughts?

As a very wise man said, when someone asked if they had a soul: "If you didn't have a soul, why would you worry about it?"

Likewise, it is difficult to question your existence if you are ABLE to question it.

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Close your mind? I shudder at the thought. Next thing you know, you'll be telling us to burn books. This is the reason why humanity has hardly advanced since the dark ages. Without the enlightenment or the renaissance we'd still be thrashing wheat with scythes under tyrannical feudal lords.

I'm not talking about worldly knowledge. I am talking about spiritual knowledge.

From your previous post regarding consciousness not being able to exist without a body tells me that you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, but that's alright. Not everyone searches for spiritual things.

reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

can a man be born without a body? No.

Perhaps the reason we believe this is because the man born without a body couldn't be found in order to question him. If spirits can exist, who is to say that a spirit cannot be born? Unless we're talking about a biological birth, but then that would be unfair to restrict the definition. That excludes certain schools of thought which could very well be valid.

Then how can we assume an eternal consciousness exists, or a soul for that matter? Its all the same thing.

That is similar to assuming that the Earth is flat, when you don't have the tools or knowledge to prove the belief. You say we cannot assume such a consciousness exists. Are you assuming it does NOT exist? I think you are.

Any idea about some eternal consciousness without the body is utterly ridiculous.

Never close your mind to any idea simply because it seems miraculous. 200 years ago, no one would have believed the modern world could exist as it does. You know that this consciousness could not exist? 2,000 years ago, we knew the world was flat. 200 years ago, we knew the Earth revolved around the sun. Imagine what we'll know in 50 years?

You do not have the expertise to say this idea is impossible. Perhaps you should, at the very least, reserve judgment.

Consciousness itself cannot exist without the context of a body. It is not infinite. It is not god. It is your body.

I can disprove this theory in four words: Out of Body Experience. Ever heard of remote viewing? Astral projection is a proven study, so much so that the military has actually looked into it. For an art that science has difficulty accepting, that says quite a lot.

Consciousness cannot exist without a body? Hundreds of people have escaped their bodies and consciously observed the world without the confines of their flesh. There is a difference between consciousness and the soul. Even the soul has been shown to escape the body and return. Consciousness is the hard drive, the soul is the current inside the battery. Without a juiced-up battery, the computer will not boot up. Without a hard drive, the computer will turn on, but it will not function.

Does this make it clearer to you?

reply to post by Deetermined

It's all about the spiritual, not the mind.

The last people who said that, put Galileo on house arrest for daring to suggest that Earth was not the center of the universe. Is this the ideal you are suggesting?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Absolutely!

So, what kind of experiences have you had or practices have you practiced?

Have they worked for you?

reply to post by Deetermined


Examine everything three times for good measure, and always take it with a grain of salt. If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't, but make sure you look at it from all sides, and try to understand it from an omniscient perspective. Understand that humans are not role models for creating and ruling worlds, and our standards are by no means paragon. And most importantly, realize that even if something isn't helpful, make sure that there isn't a "greater good"...which takes a certain grasp of knowing what is "good" and "bad" - again, only useful if you have a knack for seeing how it will turn out in a hundred years, and a knack for deducing how it would turn out otherwise.

And yes, it has worked fairly well for me. I consider myself a "polycredic" - someone who takes bits and pieces of everything in order to cobble together a less biased and more productive image of the universe. After all, if you accept the idea of a higher power (I do, though not in the common sense) then obviously the universe is not created to destroy itself. What's the purpose to that? What do you learn?

If you want, you might take a leaf from my book. I won't push it on you, though.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


What book is that?

reply to post by Deetermined


Never heard of that phrase? Look it up.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


OK, so your book was your two paragraphs of comments. Wasn't sure until this last post

Just wondering as others on ATS have written books about the subjects they speak about.

I've seen you speak of spiritual things in the form of astral projection, etc.

Do you or do you not practice any of the things I've seen you mention in the past?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
That is similar to assuming that the Earth is flat, when you don't have the tools or knowledge to prove the belief. You say we cannot assume such a consciousness exists. Are you assuming it does NOT exist? I think you are.

consciousness |ˈkänCHəsnəs|
noun
the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings: she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later.
• the awareness or perception of something by a person: her acute consciousness of Mike's presence.
• the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world: consciousness emerges from the operations of the brain.

Yes I am. Answer me this if you can: Can you be aware of your surroundings without a body? Can you do any of the above without a body? The onus of proof is not on me sir. You haven't proven anything but your ability to fall in line behind someone else's ideas.

You do not have the expertise to say this idea is impossible. Perhaps you should, at the very least, reserve judgment.

You're right, but I do have the expertise to tell you it is illogical. What is the basis of your argument? Anecdotal evidence and the will to push an unoriginal idea.

I can disprove this theory in four words: Out of Body Experience. Ever heard of remote viewing? Astral projection is a proven study, so much so that the military has actually looked into it. For an art that science has difficulty accepting, that says quite a lot.

Consciousness cannot exist without a body? Hundreds of people have escaped their bodies and consciously observed the world without the confines of their flesh. There is a difference between consciousness and the soul. Even the soul has been shown to escape the body and return. Consciousness is the hard drive, the soul is the current inside the battery. Without a juiced-up battery, the computer will not boot up. Without a hard drive, the computer will turn on, but it will not function.

Does this make it clearer to you?

Next you are going to say people who dream are leaving their body. I can guarantee you, despite what their or your imaginations says, they are still in their body. Consciousness is not the hard drive. A simple look in the dictionary will prove otherwise. You just further complicated your illogical conclusions by pushing an ontological argument.