The Indian AF beats the USAF: Not ! The Real Story Behind The Cope India Exersize

geez you guys pmake some long posts!

The basic jist I could get from Stellar X's post was that a BVR capability is useless, if your Rules of Engagement put you WVR. Two posts later, someone brought up Gulf War stats, which seem to completely refute the evidence in Stellar's post. WHat I get though is a matter of training, tactics, and other equipment.

If you've got a no fly zone, and AWACs around, telling you everything in the sky and who it is, oh and "go kill that guy over there", than the longest engagement capabilities possible are benificial. On the other hand, if you have a cluttered enviornment full fo civilian and commercial air traffic, while you lack the Elint to tell you who's who, you may as well load up on sidewinders, because you've just been driven into a WVR fight.

I believe BVR has a strong role to play in air combat. I do not however believe it's the last word in air to air tactics. Ever wonder why there are bayonet fittings on rifles? Sure, it's better to kill someone way over there, but sometimes...

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Really? Medium term? Which means that there should be a mass of stealth fighters in development now. So, can you mention some?



As far as I’m aware some AESA radars on US fighters have limited jamming capability against other fighters radars. However I’m interested to hear about other radars in development with this capability. Also, there are ways in which you can improve current seekers and radar systems to cope with new emerging jamming systems. Incidentally you also can't jam a radar you cannot detect.




Perhaps, but you’re overlooking one simple detail, current offensive fighter technology will not stay stagnant. As the systems designed to detect and destroy fighters become more advance so will the capability of the fighters to evade those systems, its a delicate balance. In the 70’s or early 80’s one could have said that radar would become so powerful in the future that aircraft would be easy to track and destroy, well not so with the introduction of stealth technology.

[edit on 11-4-2006 by WestPoint23]

- Obviously one would immediately point at the PAK-FA, but there is also the MiG I-2000, and even the 1.44 and S-37. All have been developed to varying degrees, all have low radar return technology to varying degrees. China is also working on a similar machine

- Where one follows, you can be sure others are not too far behind, its pretty obvious that other AESA radar systems will have or be getting the same broad capabilities. As for the LPI radar, is it not pretty obvious that the RWR thresholds will just be changed?!? Don't forget, a radar wave is 4 times stronger at the target than the return is to the source/reciever. As for proofing the seekers against jammers, yes, it is a natural development, but will the increase in weight through shielding not adversely affect missile performance? Of course it will, reducing missile effectiveness.

- They cannot escape the laws of physics, if they fly they disturb the air, if they want to be manouverable, they must have a low aspect ratio, hence they really disturb the air. I do accept that fighters will get some form of shielding against DEWs, but considering the concentration of power of a laser, effective shielding may prove to be unfeasibly heavy [unless we get the star wars/star trek jobs ]

All said and done, it's the man behind the machine that counts!!

Though both Air Force officials shied away from giving any figures of "kills" or "hits", USAF pilots said they had been impressed by the flying skills of the Indian pilots. Deptula as well as Major stressed that the pilots flew in mixed groups simulating dissimilar Air Combat Missions, Basic Fighter Manoeuvres and large-scale engagements in which no individual scores were kept. "The US Air Force is the largest and most technologically advanced air force in the world with rich operational experience. At the same time, the home grown ingenuity and skill of the IAF pilots has earned them respect from different nations of the world", Major said.

www.india-defence.com...

There's no doubt that the Indian Air Force pilots are among the finest in the world!

Obviously one would immediately point at the PAK-FA, but there is also the MiG I-2000, and even the 1.44 and S-37. All have been developed to varying degrees, all have low radar return technology to varying degrees. China is also working on a similar machine.

Well, most of these fighters will not be put in mass production and the Chinese JXX is little more than some design pictures and 3-D models. The PAK-FA has been talked about for sometime but nothing solid as of yet. However I did say in development so we’ll just have to wait and see if these projects bear any fruit.

westpoint

how the heck do you actually KNOW that any of those aircraft do not exist?


do you have access to intel that no one else does??

just because it hasn`t been paraded on CNN does not mean that its just a fantasy.

and please don`t bother with internet pages - i can make a page on wiki that states that the F-22 is invinsible and God himself protects it , so it must be the truth.

westpoint

how the heck do you actually KNOW that any of those aircraft do not exist?


do you have access to intel that no one else does??

just because it hasn`t been paraded on CNN does not mean that its just a fantasy.

What are you talking about? I said most of planes except the PAK-FA and in the future perhaps the JXX wont be put into mass production. I’m going by what information is available now, and they state that neither the PAK-FA or JXX exist yet. If you want to get into the whole “secret project” debate, fine, but remember its pointless because its just speculation and secret projects go both ways you know.

[edit on 12-4-2006 by WestPoint23]

FredT:
I couldn't read that artcle you linked You'd better post original words

Comon Guys. The Cope India was not any Win or Loose but both the Airofrce learned something from one and another. Its sounds stupid to say Su-30s beating F-15s in Cope India when both aircrafts didnt showed their complete capability.Excercise is place where Airforce learns from each other.None of Airforce, Either India or USAF will never reveal their Full Fighters or weapons capability. They have obviously keep it secret.They have Rules of Engagement in which Fighters/ Missile Capability are deliberately reduced in order to Practice well.

Even the IAF had some restrictions of not using its Aircrafts Complete Capability.
Su-30K were using R-27 Alamo missiles, not R-77. And 18/20nm range for BVR was set for both teams.

MiG-21 Bison was using R-77 missile, but it also following strict EMCON, therefore it cannot be said that the Bison was getting the early shot.

MiG-29 was perhaps the only aircraft carrying R-77, but its performance was not talked about.

The Pilots of Both Airforces are of young pilots in large numbers.

Most of the Kills where made of by MiG-21s

Not to Forget. The Main thing is that the IAF didnt choose the Sukhoi-30MKI but instead they choose the old Variant Sukhoi-30k.



The Cope India was not any Win or Loose Situation but it was for learn about Tactics.

Originally posted by indian_sukhoi
Comon Guys. The Cope India was not any Win or Loose but both the Airofrce learned something from one and another. Its sounds stupid to say Su-30s beating F-15s in Cope India when both aircrafts didnt showed their complete capability.Excercise is place where Airforce learns from each other.None of Airforce, Either India or USAF will never reveal their Full Fighters or weapons capability. They have obviously keep it secret.They have Rules of Engagement in which Fighters/ Missile Capability are deliberately reduced in order to Practice well.


Even the IAF had some restrictions of not using its Aircrafts Complete Capability.
Su-30K were using R-27 Alamo missiles, not R-77. And 18/20nm range for BVR was set for both teams.

MiG-21 Bison was using R-77 missile, but it also following strict EMCON, therefore it cannot be said that the Bison was getting the early shot.

MiG-29 was perhaps the only aircraft carrying R-77, but its performance was not talked about.

The Pilots of Both Airforces are of young pilots in large numbers.

Most of the Kills where made of by MiG-21s

Not to Forget. The Main thing is that the IAF didnt choose the Sukhoi-30MKI but instead they choose the old Variant Sukhoi-30k.



The Cope India was not any Win or Loose Situation but it was for learn about Tactics.

Thats what I try and tell people too, its exactly right. This was not a competition, it was an exercise for both the US and Indian Air Forces to learn from each other. India is becoming a long term strategic ally of the US, so it makes sense to learn from each other, and to train together.

The Indian Air Force has obviously came a long way, giving some US pilots a bit of a surprise with how well the Indians showed flexibility and aerial decision making. Regardless of what people try to make out of it as to who "won", which is silly, as long as both Indian and US forces learn and improve, they both win.

Heads up..

Tornado F3 43 SQN exercises with Su 30 MKI, Mirage 2000, MiG 27 ,MiG 21Bis etc are over and results are being posted..
read and share opinions..
Typhoon slated to be used in such exercises next year..
EDIT: RAF Air Chief Marshal Torpy flew in the MKI, while 4 RAF pilots themselves flew in the MKI, and 4 IAF pilots flew Tornadoes..
The RAF fielded E3D sentry AWACS as well..

[edit on 14-10-2006 by Daedalus3]

One of IAF pilot stated that he can fly his Su-30MKI circle around Tornado as if its standing still... While Tornado goes over 900 miles per hour... It shows that RAF made mistake and should had sent Eurofighter Typhoons to fly them against far more inferior and stronger opponents, IAF Su-30MKI. It also show the reasons why USAF needs F-22 for real because China is already rapidly improving their fleet of Flankers with radars and avonics for offensive missions. Even Indigo-Chino relation are much more closing than ever which India can teach Chinese PLAAF the new tactics to fly more aggressive and smarter against western air forces and that include Taiwan, Japan and South Korea. India are getting there to our levels of air dominance. Remember, they're working with Russia on Pak-Fa which may be scary picture for USAF.

Originally posted by OneMyrmidon
One of IAF pilot stated that he can fly his Su-30MKI circle around Tornado as if its standing still... While Tornado goes over 900 miles per hour...

Do you have a source on that?

It shows that RAF made mistake and should had sent Eurofighter Typhoons to fly them against far more inferior and stronger opponents, IAF Su-30MKI.

It'll happen next year in July. The RAF said that the Typhoon was not fielded because it has not been fully operationalised and is still being inducted in Squadrons..
However nobody asked him why Typhoons were fielded at Red Flag.

It also show the reasons why USAF needs F-22 for real because China is already rapidly improving their fleet of Flankers with radars and avonics for offensive missions. Even Indigo-Chino relation are much more closing than ever which India can teach Chinese PLAAF the new tactics to fly more aggressive and smarter against western air forces and that include Taiwan, Japan and South Korea.

I seriously doubt the IAF and the PLAAF will share operational tactics anytime in the near future..

India are getting there to our levels of air dominance. Remember, they're working with Russia on Pak-Fa which may be scary picture for USAF.

Nothing much on that scene nowadays. wonder what happened..

Still reading up on the RAF-IAF exercises and sifting through initial media hype..
Very curious to know how the E3D AWACS assisted Tornadoes performed against MKI/non MKI IAF units..
AWACS brings in a whole new angle to the exercises..

One of IAF pilot stated that he can fly his Su-30MKI circle around Tornado as if its standing still...

I should bloody well think so, any other result would show the Su-30 to be a complete waste of money

Haven't seen any info yet but I would guess that with a Sentry being part of the excercise alongside Tornadoes it was more of a BVR excercise? After all, everyone knows the Tornado isn't, and never was, a dogfighter.

Oh yeah.. It was most definitely BVR and the E3D made all the difference from what I'm reading and except for the MKIs, the Mirage 2000s,MiG 27s and MiG21 Bisons found the AWACS assisted Tornadoes to be quite a handful..

Cheers Daedalus, I'd have liked to see a similar excercise conducted with the old Shackleton AEW.2 that we used to have before the Sentry entered service, complete with its WW2 vintage radar. That would have been interesting!

i found this note :

[...] should have brought their new Euro-fighter Typhoons. The Tornado-F3 air defence fighters were no match for our Sukhoi-30MKIs, which performed exceptionally well in BVR ....
[..]

"the Typhoon, is an absolutely superb plane and we would like to operate it against Sukhoi-30MKI, probably next year," said RAF strike command's chief of operations, Air Vice-Marshal Christopher N Harper.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

the results of Eurofighter and MKI tango would be worth waiting for.

Originally posted by OneMyrmidon
One of IAF pilot stated that he can fly his Su-30MKI circle around Tornado as if its standing still... While Tornado goes over 900 miles per hour... It shows that RAF made mistake and should had sent Eurofighter Typhoons to fly them against far more inferior and stronger opponents, IAF Su-30MKI. It also show the reasons why USAF needs F-22 for real because China is already rapidly improving their fleet of Flankers with radars and avonics for offensive missions.

The Reason why RAF didnt choose Typoon because they wanted to see the results about the Upgrading Tornado Capabilities.

Other thing is that RAF will take some time to master typhoon, exploiting its capabilities.And thats why they did not bring typhoon to india.




Good News is that. The RAF had decided to bring their Typoons on the next Indo-Britan Air Exercises.

Though the RAF brought its upgraded Tornados for the joint exercise, Harper said that during the next exercise planned to be held in Britain in September next year, his force might field the new generation Typhoon Eurofighters.










Cheers
Indian.sukhoi

reply to post by FredT


ok it was an engagement that was forcing a dog fight where the f-15s were heavily out numbered.

it seems to me it was designed to test the Russian lazer target acquisition system witch has a short range so the F-15 were limited to the short range weapons and then out numberd. in this artical they call it an unfair fight but i think thats where we get the most out of the exercise... we must know our limits! and we must know our opponents capabilities

COOOL!!!!
thank you India

while the exercise itself just a limited and controlled exercize with specific scenario to teach the participants, it is the over reaction of americans that kinda suprised me and it reminded me of how americans deride japanese fighting men in WW2 and got slaughtered..

the US goverment always tried to project its propaganda regarding US military superiority and they are so successful that american public think their military is better than other nations. While this in itself is a disgusting racism in part of american (thinking they are better than other nations) , it also indicate a weakness in heir psyche and so proven again and again in past wars like on korea and vietnam where the enemy slaughtered US soldiers with impunity and ease and the US gov havd to create a fictional body count ratio so laughable to prevent the collapse of american confidence in their military.

This overconfidence leads to massive amount of american soldier deaths in even minor theatre like Iraq and Afghanistan where US got total control of air. Even against underarmed freedom fighters with no altilery and air support the taliban and iraqi inflicted massive casualties on american forces. One wonders how badly will american soldiers crack morally if they fought an enemy with massive support in altilery and anti air MANPADS ? if american military cannot even won the fight against afghani/iraqi freedom fighters, they will be morally devastated if they fought a better armed enemy forces.

An easy example should be the latest news on how a single GRAD MLRS with 40 rockets salvoed on a kiev Army camp and destroyed their armours and trucks , all from a single truck. How can the US military face such destruction without cracking if they face multi truck MLRS bombardment on their unit ? even today the minuscule amount of RPG fired at US soldiers terrorized them so much, how badly you think a massive altilery and rocket bombardment will affect their morale ?

in the end this cope india result only highlighhts the fragile psyche of americans when they cannot take reality of getting beaten by what they think an inferior nation. Ever since World War 2, America never won a war and yet they keep trying to uphold the myth of their military superiority especially after the massive defeat in vietnam.

Today the fragile american confidence in their military can only be created by US picking fights against weak opponents that cannot fight back. the massive US military machine are propped with a very weak morale from it's soldiers. Just like Roman Empire at the end of their world hegemony.

This is an aircraft forum and you have resurrected a 6 year threas to rant anti american garbage.

PS. Americans didnt get slaughtered in Vietnam, they won every single conflict. You might want to read up on your history pal.