The Indian AF beats the USAF: Not ! The Real Story Behind The Cope India Exersize

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Why dont you give us you username and password so that we can all take a look. You know its all about deny ignorance....now....come on.......

Heh heh, The subscription is only what 100 a year? Not too bad IMHO if ou want all the latest news. My cousin in the AF refers to it as "Aviation leak" due to all the info they release.

That being said, no you cannot have my password, but if you check out thier site the "free stories" rotate from time to time.

never mind...........i was just joking around

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
The mark of true winners are the ones that win even with their backs to the wall.

Very true.

Now, let's say the Americans fighters had about 1/4 fuel and guns in the BVR environment. That's a totally different situation then

I see what your saying, but to me it seems like this was akin to giving one side WWI biplanes while giving the other side 3 times as many WWII era aircraft.

I would have liked to see the USAF outnumbered, but have the normal radar. That to me would make a LOT of sense.

how did the jaguars do in alaska? they didn`t use them in cope india first time around , and the RAF ones were known to `bounce` F-15`s alot of the time.

true, the jags kicked some F-15 butt.

BTW : The IAF just celebrated 25 of operating the jaguar last week

wonder why nobody conducted exercises in which both groups were evenly matched! Or did they?! Fact is no one can really say that the F-15s would have won if they were fitted to their best configuration because that kind of match up aint happened.
A completely transparent match up between the USAF and the IAF with the best-of-best vis-a-vis pilots, and tech would never take place because of the political ramifications. And personally I think the USAF would stand to lose more from such a match up as losing here would be a shame. That is bcause the general opinion here is that USAF pilots are the best in the world. I doubt the Indians would have much to lose it terms of face.
Anyhow this rubbish about "USAF is the best in the world and nobody can deny that" by many posters is baseless and purely emotionally driven. Actually it sounds like chicoms glorifying their blaoted PLA!

Think about it, the only overwhelming victory the USAF has had in the recent past is against the Iraqis who had a sucky air force and c'mon, arabs got to be dummest military strategists in the world!

Originally posted by drfunk
without a doubt if it was real unrestricted warfare against the IAF they wouldn't have a chance against the US airforce. The IAF has a few great planes and a lot of older, inferior soviet types that would get their ass absolutely kicked by US pilots.

The older radar on the F-15 is still mighty powerful mind you, don't underestimate its capabilities.

IAF pilots did well, but IMO the average IAF pilot wouldnt compare to the average US pilot. This is just because the USAF has the fuel and the war-hardened pilots to be able to maintain a high-standard of pilots.

drfunk

I see this a lot on this thread! How can you compare pilot skills hypothetically on the basis of standards when you dont know how much or hard the Indian pilots train!
IMHO a real match-up with everybody being fitted with their best gadgets
would never happen especially between two countries which arent allies or steadfast friends. The actual results, if ever leaked out, would have farreaching effects! Also the IAF doesnt stand to lose much face over defeat in such an encounter because everybody thinks its flying 'old MiGs'. However a reverse result would certainly be shameful for the USAF. They have an 'image' to maintain!

Maybe thats why there are no 'real' match-ups and only 'blue-red' games in which USAF pilots notch their 'flight' experience' . Wake up and smell the coffe! Maybe, just maybe, there are better pilots/tactics out there!

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Anyhow this rubbish about "USAF is the best in the world and nobody can deny that" by many posters is baseless and purely emotionally driven.

Sorry, but factS are facts.

The USAF operates the only stealth aircraft in the world, the F-117, B-2, and F/A-22 Raptor. The USAF is clearly the most advanced. The USAF frontline fighter, the F-15 has never lost an A2A battle registering well over 100 kills, WITH ZERO LOSSES. Thats right 100+ to 0.

But forget all of that. Lets assume that some other AF has better planes (which they don't) better trained pilots (which they don't) and better weapons (which they don't). We still haven't even discussed the ICBMs in the USAF arsenal, which alone are more powerfull then every other nations combined military forces with the exception of Russia. Thats right - those Peacekeepers and Minutemen II missles alone are more powerfull then every other nation on earth, so get your facts right. The USAF is THE BEST. END OF STORY.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Sorry, but factS are facts.
The USAF operates the only stealth aircraft in the world, the F-117, B-2, and F/A-22 Raptor. The USAF is clearly the most advanced. The USAF frontline fighter, the F-15 has never lost an A2A battle registering well over 100 kills, WITH ZERO LOSSES. Thats right 100+ to 0.But forget all of that. Lets assume that some other AF has better planes (which they don't) better trained pilots (which they don't) and better weapons (which they don't).

But thats exactly what im saying!Your F-15 100% record is because of the inferior pilots you've always fought!Thats why I envy Israel sometimes! Flexing muscles wouldnt be a problem if we were surrounded by incompetants like Israel is!
F-117s and B-2s, thats all stealth. Every country even the world which sees itself as a major player in the future is looking for a loophole in stealth! Everyone knows this! Stealth will have (might already have!) a counter someday.

You cannot hypothetically assume the the USAF has the best pilots/weapons/planes on simulations and red-blue games!Real Combat and exercises like Cope India decide that!Agreed Cope India was unfair but a 'fair' matchup would never take place and if it did the results would never be publicised! Hence the only way to decide REAL COMBAT! You cannot say you're the best until you've faced the best and defeated them!
Everybody knows Arab pilots aint the 'best' in the world! Hell all those guys can do is ram airliners into buildings!

Listen to this:
In the 60s F-104 starfighters were supposed to be the best jets out there. Im sure back then guys like you would rant on about their 'unequaled air superiority'. Then came the 65 and &! Indo-Pak wars. The PAF 104s were wasted by home grown GNATs and KIRANs(no need to even bring in the MiG 21s). Unfortunately not many were shot down because after the first few encounters, most PAF F-104 pilots would jettision the fuel tanks at the whiff of IAF interceptors, and afterburner their behinds back to safety!
Later on these 'prized' jets were 'hidden' in Iran for safety. The PAF was too chicken to keep them on home soil even, forget get them airborne!

(At that time Iran was friendly with the US because of the Shah)

Dont even try to bring in the ICBMs! They were never a part of the initial discussion. You know as well as I do that if one of those is launched by either party or parties, it'll be the end of the world as we know it. ICBMs are a deterrant, nothing more! Lets hope NOBODY EVER uses them!
India doesnt require ICBMs at the moment. Our nuke arsenal range is sufficient to counter current threat perceptions. And if the need ever arose, the PSLV and GSLV launch vehicles would need to be rewired and armed! Nobody bullies India



[edit on 14-10-2004 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3

But thats exactly what im saying!Your F-15 100% record is because of the inferior pilots you've always fought!Thats why I envy Israel sometimes! Flexing muscles wouldnt be a problem if we were surrounded by incompetants like Israel is!

It is not just because of inferior pilots - it is because we have the best planes, the best weapons, and we train our pilots well.

Please - name one nations - ANY NATION - that has anything close to equal aircraft and weapons, in the numbers that we do while also training their pilots to the standard that we do. You can't because there isn't a country that comes close. Russia has the tech, but doesn't hae the numbers of modern airframes or the pilot training. China has the numbers, but not the tech or training. The UK has the tech and training, but not the numbers. Same with Isreal. That is what makes the US the best. We have the total package.

F-117s and B-2s, thats all stealth. Every country even the world which sees itself as a major player in the future is looking for a loophole in stealth! Everyone knows this! Stealth will have (might already have!) a counter someday.

Right now only the F-117 stealth is vulnerable. Yes every country is looking for loopholes, but the fact is that there aren't too many. The B-2 and F/A-22 both have very low signatures in all areas - radar thermal and visual. That is an advantage the US and the US alone holds.

You cannot hypothetically assume the the USAF has the best pilots/weapons/planes on simulations and red-blue games!Real Combat and exercises like Cope India decide that!Agreed Cope India was unfair but a 'fair' matchup would never take place and if it did the results would never be publicised! Hence the only way to decide REAL COMBAT! You cannot say you're the best until you've faced the best and defeated them!
Everybody knows Arab pilots aint the 'best' in the world! Hell all those guys can do is ram airliners into buildings!

The US has maintained a positive kill ratio since WWII - thats all in "real combat" as you say. And as far as simulations go, they are a tool, but admittedly not a 100% indicator of real world situations. But consider that the fastest most manueverable fighter in the world today is the FA-22. Thats just a siple fact. Now aren't those two of the basic most important aspects of fighters? Then there is the Radar - clearly the best in the world. But lets say it's equal to everyone elses. The Raptor is till the better aircraft based on speed and agility. And i didn't even talk about stealth.

I ask you:

IF THE USAF ISN'T THE BEST, WHO IS? I'M ALL EARS.

The point is you are making assumptions

( to assume makes an a-s-s of u and me)

Your listing everything as fact. Perhaps based on current available and free information you are probably correct in most cases.

Its what you don't know that can bite you on the arse, and if there's one thing your intelligence services have proven beyond doubt in the last four years its that depsite what they do know, theres a hell of a lot they dont't.

You ignore that the IAF combat pilots on average fly tens of hours more per man (confirmed by the USAFs own reports), than thier USAF counter-parts in a higher air threat environment, in more realistic conditions, and fly more real air hours vis the USAFs simulators, in situations where the IAF are required to make far more demands on thier systems in the real world, than your USAF pilots are taught in the textbook.

Your last real air threat in an air war was Vietnam, and you flew against novices in Iraq and the Balkans, who were better at dropping bombs on refugee columns than they were in A2A or even tactical bombing.

If the USAF pilots are as glib as some of thier supporters then the same airs of supposed technological superiority and skill will bring you undone that initially brought your dads and granddads undone in Vietnam and the Pacific War in 1941-42. The difference would be a battle queasy US public and administration would have you pulled out of there before you could redress the issue convincingly.

Its Banal really. Those states you are most likely to fight against in the coming decade are equiped with crap and most likely flown by crap.

The AirForces that most likely could give you a run for your money and to prove hi tech aint all it is cracked up to be are either firm allies or indifferent to playing peeing competitions with the USAF burning thier hard currency in dogfights.

If America goes arounding mouthing off how unbeatable in the air they are, thats when they will get beat. If not despite thier technological superiority, then because of the unprepardness of its pilots for an actual challenge. To actually be the best they must always assume there is SOMEONE better to keep thier edge. If you depend on tech then soon your nothing better than a bus driver.

btw FYI elements of IDAF, IAF, PLA-AF and last but not least NATO collectively, could give the USAF a run for your money.

Unless some moron in the Pentagon decides they need to prove something its not going to happen. Its all moot.

It is no reason to get hot under the collar, unless your having doubts.

[edit on 14-10-2004 by craigandrew]

[edit on 14-10-2004 by craigandrew]

First off, I'm jusy having some fun debating you on the power of the USAF - OK? It's all in good fun

But like you sid, according to all public knowladge, I am correct. The USAF is the biggest, most powerfull in the world.

Now if you want to talk unknowns, I think it is a safe bet that the USAF would win that one too. It has a larger budget then any one elses combined military forces. Remember, the B-2 is 80's tech, imagine the secret bombers we have now.

Most likely something in the Hypersoar realm.

Basically, if we are talking unknowns, I believe the USAF becomes even more powerfull then anyone else.

BTW - can i see a link to the flight hours for pilots?

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdoI still don't think being outnumbered and lack of technology is a good excuse. The mark of true winners are the ones that win even with their backs to the wall.

Ah yes, definitely. A sign of a good military is good leadership. Good technology is worth nothing if you have horrible leadership. Take Erwin Rommel for instance. He got the job done in Africa really well despite all the hardships (lack of supplies, lack of troops, lack of...everything). Once again, it's not who has the better technology; it's who has the better leaders and this "shock and awe" is by no way an example of good leadership (complete rip-off of Blitzkrieg...only renamed and slightly tinkered with).

Originally posted by American Mad ManBut forget all of that. Lets assume that some other AF has better planes (which they don't) better trained pilots (which they don't) and better weapons (which they don't).

*cough* RAF *cough*

Originally posted by American Mad Man
The USAF operates the only stealth aircraft in the world, the F-117, B-2, and F/A-22 Raptor.

Erm...and Russia?

I too am just enjoying the debate. Please dont let some more of my strdient remarks be taken for other.

I wish I had the link, but Australian Aviation (July 2004 Newsdesk - Military) referred to the USAF Report on Cope India, saying it had stated the Indian pilots were averaging some 300 flying hours per year, some fifity hours a year more than thier US counterparts.

The August edition carried a follow up, stating that the information had been updated with the correction that the F-15s involved were an earlier model C without improved radar.

I have seen a link to the report on the web, but I have gone box eyed trying to find it again.

As to the air to air and SAM threat environments I referred to I must admit that these are based on recent articles and histories I have read off line in magazines and books. Iv'e drawn my own conclusions about the nature of those environments including articles past and present on Red Flag and its equivelent USAF exercises. I must conceed I could be accused of making and a-s-s out of u and me.

I hope you will conceed that while absolute confidence in your own equipment and skills is vital, it also pays to keep in the back of your mind that SOMEONE could be better, if only to keep the edge and not get sloppy and dependent on your whizz bang gee kit.

[edit on 14-10-2004 by craigandrew]

Originally posted by Blackout

Originally posted by American Mad ManBut forget all of that. Lets assume that some other AF has better planes (which they don't) better trained pilots (which they don't) and better weapons (which they don't).

*cough* RAF *cough*

Perhaps, but how big is their AF?

Please, head to head they stand no chance

Originally posted by Blackout

Originally posted by American Mad Man
The USAF operates the only stealth aircraft in the world, the F-117, B-2, and F/A-22 Raptor.

Erm...and Russia?

And what aircraft would that be?

We are talking about publically known, operational aircraft.

If it is a paper plane or tech demonstrator, well then the USAF has those as well

Originally posted by craigandrew
I hope you will conceed that while absolute confidence in your own equipment and skills is vital, it also pays to keep in the back of your mind that SOMEONE could be better, if only to keep the edge and not get sloppy and dependent on your whizz bang gee kit.

[edit on 14-10-2004 by craigandrew]

Oh clearly. I don't think any pilots are so full as themselves as to think they are above getting beat.


But here is the thing. The USAF has flown more combat missions then any other AF. It is a safe assumption that at the very least the USAF aircraft are the equal of any they will encounter. The USAF also has the numbers that other nations don't.

So in the real world I see the USAF as close to untouchable, at this point, as you can get.

Russia, China and perhaps the EU (if you were to combine their military strength) could rival the US and even surpass it in the near future, but at present, there is simply no country that can honestly claim to rival the US.

True,


But in all those missions, how many of them have required the vast majority of pilots to do more than drive the bus and check waypoints

I'm sorry, you are probably right...but I just have to wonder