Occupiers Celebrate 4th of July by…Burning American Flags and Vandalizing Police Property

Originally posted by XPLodER
reply to post by petrus4

 

do you understand capitalism?
i do
this is not it

I'm quite aware of the fact that what we have at the moment, is not what at least some have described as Capitalism. More to the point, I am also aware that Capitalism was a system with sabotage built in, at its' inception. Hence, its' failure was inevitable. The reason why Marx knew about that, was because he received his information directly from Capitalism's architects.

Marx was only correct, to the extent that he spoke about the duopolistic system (Capitalism and Communism) which had been already designed by other parties. The cabal gave him the information he had, for their own purposes.

you dare to call me a comunist with out having a clue as to why i follow free market capitalism?

Read Red Symphony. In it, you will find that formal Capitalism is defined as informal Communism, and formal Communism is defined as informal Capitalism.

Originally posted by TheAnarchist

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by TheAnarchist

 

I’m not going to be led into battle with TPTB prematurely by a bunch of angry, juvenile miscreants who want free college, wealth redistribution and a new styled America. 'If' and 'when' this country reaches a boiling point it will be patriotic Americans that want to restore the American constitution who will lead the charge!

The only thing that can stop this is if the HUMAN BEINGS of the Left and Right work together if only against your common enemy.

Yep. As I said earlier; all together, Comrades!





No matter how Communism tries to camouflage itself, some of us just stubbornly refuse to fall for it. Sorry.

Left anarchism looked good to me at first; but then I remembered how a few years earlier, I'd already read the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. If you're able to penetrate the mainstream groupthink about that book enough yourself to read it, you'll learn from it that Left and Right are both a bait and switch, that come from the same group. Read Red Symphony on that score, as well.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by petrus4

 

By the way, you're lucky you edited your post

You seem to be seeking to moderate between but I think you are only accomplishing agitating both.

The only reason why I end up agitating both, is because both prefer to view me as the enemy if I don't agree with literally every element of their own beliefs, rather than using their brains.

Most people want to be polarised, because it's a lot easier. As such, to the extent that I disagree with them, conservatives see me as a filthy hippie pinko. To the extent that I disagree with Occupiers/the Left on this forum, I'm considered evil Capitalist scum.

The truth is I'm neither. I recognise that both of those camps are fundamentally based on lies.

reply to post by buster2010

I'm a vet also and I think these people have every right to express their views no matter

Sure they have the right to protest regardless of how much they hate Capitalism and free enterprise and just plain old civility. The Che Guevara posters really do give them away as Marxist though. I would oppose them because they are tools for socialism and communism. No I don't have to like them and I don't have to agree with their preposterous ideas either.

The good thing about their protests is now they are out in the open and we know communism didn't die off like we've been told.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
The Che Guevara posters really do give them away as Marxist though. I would oppose them because they are tools for socialism and communism.

You must be a young person, dont be offended, let me explain.

When I wore a younger man's clothes, we were taught that there was a Commie in every bush, under every porch.

They had sharp teeth , and ate babies, and where minutes away from ending our existence.

Socialist back then, were our friends. Sure they were weird, looking after there own people's well being and such. but our friends.

Countries like Canada, England, Norway, Finland were even our Allies, there are pictures if you don;t believe me.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
The Che Guevara posters really do give them away as Marxist though. I would oppose them because they are tools for socialism and communism.

You must be a young person, dont be offended, let me explain.

When I wore a younger man's clothes, we were taught that there was a Commie in every bush, under every porch.

They had sharp teeth , and ate babies, and where minutes away from ending our existence.

Socialist back then, were our friends. Sure they were weird, looking after there own people's well being and such. but our friends.

Countries like Canada, England, Norway, Finland were even our Allies, there are pictures if you don;t believe me.

No, sorry I am old enough to remember when Reagan told Gorby to "tear Down this Wall". Socialists are never the friend of the entrepreneur and Patriot who knows what the Revolutionary War was fought for.

What is this anyway, time to redo our definition of what socialism is? That's a lot like Democrats saying it's not a tax, it's a penalty, or wait, it's not Death Panels, it's an Advisory Board. Or maybe it's the American Birth Control League changing it's name to Planned Parenthood. Or it's not the Democrat Party, it's the Democratic Party, or we are not liberals we are Progressives.Or in the case of Occupiers, they are not communists and leftists they are just against the bankers and all corporations and want free stuff.

reply to post by Tw0Sides

When I wore a younger man's clothes, we were taught that there was a Commie in every bush, under every porch.

Did we ever stop to think they may have been right afterall !!

Lots of them ended up in government and wall street

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
Or in the case of Occupiers, they are not communists and leftists they are just against the bankers and all corporations and want free stuff.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words.

reply to post by petrus4


curious petrus4 - do you think this group represents everyone affiliated with OWS?

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by petrus4

 

curious petrus4 - do you think this group represents everyone affiliated with OWS?

I think Occupy is largely divided into two groups. Those who are consciously, deliberately Communist, and those who are still fundamentally Marxist in terms of how they think, but who deny the charge of outright Communism for various reasons.

It's become common for contemporary Leftists to call for, to varying degrees, the abolition of nationalism, as well as view the social dominance (not equality) of homosexuality and various other minorities as a given, which supposedly only a sane or civilised person would want, yet still vigorously deny the charge of being either Communist, or even generically Leftist, if accused of it. A major problem with Communists, is that they tend to view their perspectives, not merely as opinions, but as objective facts. So they'll try and say, "No, it's not that I'm a Communist; it's just that that is the way things really are."

I think Occupy probably was a genuinely diverse/bipartisan movement at one point, but has since been hijacked by the radical Left; probably even before the end of Zucotti Park. According to takethesquare.net, the encampment meme got started in Spain, which is where a number of other Leftist ideas and practices have originated, as well.

The attempt at bipartisanship notwithstanding, even back then, most of Occupy's modus operandi (including the encampment idea) has its' origins in the Eastern bloc. America's foundational political influence is Old Right, which was the stance of the founders. It is on the diametrically opposite side of the aisle.

Libertarian Socialists will get angry with you about lumping them into a particular category, cite the Hegelian dialectic, and blow various other smoke, but once they stop doing that, they'll then start talking about how rather than categorising ourselves, we should all just unite, which is, of course, Marxism 101.

Despite what Kali said earlier, however, I do still view the term and concept, "international solidarity," as a means of leading people towards the Internationale, and ultimately world government. The most moderate among Occupy, are what I used to be politically, up until probably six months or so ago; Libertarian Socialist, without realising what extreme, that stance is a lesser degree of, or where it ultimately leads.

That in itself, is actually the major objection I have to Communism, more than anything else; the ceaseless call for global unification. It's a deadly trap, and those who call for it, generally do not know who they really got the idea from.

Any call for international unity is Communist by definition. You can say you're not Communist until you're blue in the face, but if you think the United Nations has a legitimate reason to exist, then you are, inevitably, at least marginally Communist.

Those aren't occupiers, all they are are gang members or wanna be's looking for an excuse to cause problems. Anyone should be able to see that.

Propaganda at it's finest here

reply to post by petrus4


well, I really got my money's worth with that question

:-)

much to say - but unfortunately it will have to keep 'til later

meantime - thank you petrus

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

Do you think this group represents everyone affiliated with OWS?

Certainly not, but it represents enough of them to turn me off.

If there weren’t a lot of these people then why does this type of thing happen at nearly every single rally?

reply to post by seabag


It hasn't. It's ridiculous for you to say so.
Not to mention AGAIN, this was NOT Occupy.
It has happened a few times at Occupy protests/events out of hundreds.

reply to post by petrus4

I think Occupy is largely divided into two groups. Those who are consciously, deliberately Communist, and those who are still fundamentally Marxist in terms of how they think, but who deny the charge of outright Communism for various reasons.

emphasis is mine - reason being - by saying this you've as much as admitted you have decided what's what and a person's own views on the subject of their own philosophy are - meaningless

My own views on OWS are mixed - for a reason. There isn't one voice, one mind, one philosophy...it's a reaction - not a movement. Not yet. It's in the process of becoming a movement - and who knows what history will call it when we're all well on the other side of right now. They might call it nothing much because it could all just fizzle out

The Tea Party - now, that's a movement. There is a very real difference - though we might not all agree about whether or not that difference is a good thing

The reason I even asked you this question is because you posted a photo of actual genuine bona fide communists staking out their turf - kinda. You seem to want to hold a neutral position and to be objective about all this - but this better dead than red thing has been done to death already - and it amounts to the same thing as the eat the rich war cry - all of it goes towards nothing but polarization. It's a trap - the labels. The labels are meaningless past a certain point and all they ever really do is give us a permission slip to stop thinking

Anyhow, it's just a photo of some wannabes. The thing is - I know you know that

Here at ATS there's a fun little game we all play where instead of real discussion about real issues - we post lame photos then stick out our tongues and run away to hide

You usually argue :-)

So I was mostly curious about that - your posting of a photo that doesn't really say anything - let alone prove anything

Arguing is better

We can and do disagree on this whole OWS thing - but it doesn't mean we can't appreciate or even enjoy a real discussion

Meanwhile - the bit about Contemporary Leftists makes me chuckle - I wonder what they will be wearing this Fall? :-)

Here's a little something I read yesterday. The red you dread doesn't exist - not the way you think it does - not in this country - never did - never will

They falsely equate Western European-style socialism, and its government provision of social insurance and health care, with Marxist-Leninist totalitarianism. It offends me, and cheapens the experience of millions who lived, and continue to live, under brutal forms of socialism.

What we need is not to strive for a perfect social justice — which never existed and never will — but for social harmony. Harmony in music is, by its nature, exhilarating and soothing. In an orchestra, the different players and instruments perform together, in support of an overall melody.

Today, our democracy, a miraculous gathering of diverse players, desperately needs such unity. If all participants play fair and strive for the common good, we can achieve a harmony that eluded the doctrinaire socialist projects. But if just one section, or even one player, is out of tune, the music will disintegrate into cacophony.

www.nytimes.com...

Yeah, I know, I know...this is how hippies talk. I disagree with you on nationalism. Hopefully we can agree to disagree. I understand that reality usually takes idealism and makes a real mess of things - the monkeys being the way they are and all. If you have a way around this petrus - I'd really like to hear it

seriously

:-)

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

Do you think this group represents everyone affiliated with OWS?

Certainly not, but it represents enough of them to turn me off.

If there weren’t a lot of these people then why does this type of thing happen at nearly every single rally?

They don't turn you off - as if you were ever really open to it at all. You were turned off before it started and now you're just looking for fodder

I think your thread is silly

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by petrus4

 

I think Occupy is largely divided into two groups. Those who are consciously, deliberately Communist, and those who are still fundamentally Marxist in terms of how they think, but who deny the charge of outright Communism for various reasons.

emphasis is mine - reason being - by saying this you've as much as admitted you have decided what's what and a person's own views on the subject of their own philosophy is - meaningless

No. If you want to accuse me of being narrow or closed minded, that is fine. I will seek to honestly evaluate that.

Look at the photo I posted earlier though, Spira. I'm not just doing what Seabag is. I've looked at Occupy's websites. I've looked at takethesquare.net. I've seen video footage of Zucotti Park, some of which was recorded by an Australian man who was actually there, who I met with, while I lived among the hippie population in Nimbin for six months.

I really have genuinely tried, to both examine, and integrate myself within, the political Left. As I said, I went and lived among them for six months. I ate with some of them, I spoke to them, and without going into specifics, which is not allowed here, I consumed psychedelics. I went to a Greenpeace meeting once, although I didn't end up wanting to go to another one.

As hard as I tried, however, I realised that I just didn't fit among them. The single main reason why, is because while I'm autistic and have been unemployed for most of my life, I've never completely been able to give up the dream of being normal. Of maybe even wearing a suit; and getting a job, and actually having a kind, non-psychopathic employer.

The Left are freaks, first and foremost.



They're consciously freaks. They're openly freaks. They love being freaks. They consider it a mark of distinction to be as brightly coloured and weird as they can possibly be.

I feel somewhat guilty about writing that, because they were very kind to me; but I need the opposite of that, at this point in life. I need order. I need stability. Want to know something else?

The more I learn about Karl Marx and what he thought, the less I like him. I also believe, fundamentally, that Marx was given everything he wrote by the Rothschilds; who invented both Capitalism and Communism as means of ultimately driving the planet towards singular global government; a horrible form of tyranny.

You seem to want to hold a neutral position and to be objective about all this

I do. Believe me, I do. Communists tend to suffer from some terrible delusions, but they're also usually people with good intentions, and not everything about the ideology is negative. They usually just want to be kind to each other; it's the formal philosophy that is the problem.

Here's a little something I read yesterday. The red you dread doesn't exist - not the way you think it does - not in this country - never did - never will

Unfortunately, that's not true, Spira. I know of a woman on this web site who self-identifies as a Communist cadre; a member of the global Marxist-Leninist vanguard.



The proverbial Red Army is still very much alive; it just doesn't exclusively exist in Russia and China any more. It has spread, and metastasized; and Occupy are more a part of it than they realise, whether they like it or not. Watch the movie Kali linked, American Autumn; one of the interview subjects is a leader of the American Communist Party.

Today, our democracy, a miraculous gathering of diverse players, desperately needs such unity. If all participants play fair and strive for the common good, we can achieve a harmony that eluded the doctrinaire socialist projects.

The Republic is dead, at this point. It isn't a miraculous gathering of diverse players; it's a group of politicians who pretend to compose two different parties, but in reality are all interested in doing nothing other than putting their heads in the corporate feeding trough. The legislative branch are probably the most corrupt, but the other two aren't that far behind. If you want unity, there it is.

Yeah, I know, I know...this is how hippies talk. I disagree with you on nationalism.

My perspective on nationalism actually comes from engineering, not economics or politics. I'm a computer programmer, and when I want to write a program that is going to work well, I'm generally going to want to write something as small and as simple as possible. This is because simplicity has less potential points of failure, and also because as a human being, I can only keep so much information in my head at once. Let things get too big, and I become overwhelmed.

It's a flag. a piece of cloth with some dye on it.
"Symbols are for the simple minded. " -Carlin