OWS - Occupy Philly on 4th of July

reply to post by Kali74
Now be fair. I'm being serious.

Debating anyone supporting OWS is like bowling with smoke.

If you know their "core values" then I formally challenge you to a debate.

*tosses a gauntlet*

reply to post by beezzer


How about you be fair? Put up what you're asking of an entire movement. What's wrong with the world?

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by beezzer

 

How about you be fair? Put up what you're asking of an entire movement. What's wrong with the world?

What are the core values/beliefs /tenents of OWS?

reply to post by beezzer


Fine but I just love how we are asked to prove ourselves over and over and when we do the rhetoric never changes. That's called moving the goal posts or trolling.

1. Resisting the corrosive influence of money in government and policy all over the world that has created an enormous disparity between the .01% and the rest of us.

2. Non-violence.

Originally posted by Kali74
1. Resisting the corrosive influence of money in government and policy all over the world that has created an enormous disparity between the .01% and the rest of us.

2. Non-violence.

So no healthcare issues? No free college issues?

Fine.

Pick a time and bring #1 to the debate forum.

I think we can agree on #2.

reply to post by beezzer


I thought you wanted core values? Health care and student debt are talking points, side effects... but if we put them on a sign, we're accused of not having a concise message? So are we (Occupiers) supposed to talk about those or not? I thought you wanted us to narrow our focus. Though, I suppose if we did only say that there's a wealth disparity... you would run around saying prove it.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Kali74

 

Now be fair. I'm being serious.

Debating anyone supporting OWS is like bowling with smoke.

If you know their "core values" then I formally challenge you to a debate.

*tosses a gauntlet*

Hell, someone open up a tinychat, or a blogtalkradio webpage where we can hear your voices, would like to hear this debate.

Not to mention individual cities' occupy movements have individual grievances...take Birmingham, AL (my home Occupy) for example.

After our former mayor Larry Langford sold us out by gambling public pensions (blog.al.com...) and ran up sewer debt (en.wikipedia.org...), the city had to declare bankruptcy.

Local government corruption was one of our largest grievances.

EDIT: We just simply expand on the national message and make it hit home.

Originally posted by petrus4
Also, I continue to admire your tenacity, Kali, even if I do suspect it is largely for a lost cause. Jibeho, beezzer, and their conservative ilk are not interested in anything remotely resembling rational debate, where Occupy are concerned. They troll, purely for the joy of trolling.

We can say whatever we like, and the response will always come directly from the perpetual tape loop inside their heads.

"Get a bath, a shave, and a job, filthy hippie scum."

edit on 3-7-2012 by petrus4 because: (no reason given)

Please spare me the tired tirade...... We have asked numerous times for national, meaningful things that OWS has changed in the way politics are done in the U.S. All we get is fluffy answers. People know the main tenents of what the Tea Party wants, we don't know the same of OWS, as evidenced by the lack of answers to our questions on this thread. What is the number one thing OWS wants to change and how are they actually going to go about it to make it happen? Seems like simple enough questions yet I have yet to get a detailed answer to either part of it. Please enlighten me with a real answer to that.

I had high expectations for the whole Occupy movement, really I did. What started out as promise quickly dissolved into meaningless. Where was Occupy movement in supporting Ron Paul, their most kindred spirit in American Politics?

IMO OWS was against everyone and not for anyone, that is precisely why they have become irrelevant. They have no political clout, and without that, you can't do much.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by beezzer

 

I thought you wanted core values? Health care and student debt are talking points, side effects... but if we put them on a sign, we're accused of not having a concise message? So are we (Occupiers) supposed to talk about those or not? I thought you wanted us to narrow our focus. Though, I suppose if we did only say that there's a wealth disparity... you would run around saying prove it.

How about a consistant message?
How about a clear, consise message?

If Occupy has such a thing then can you list them?

Originally posted by beezzer

How about a consistant message?
How about a clear, consise message?

If Occupy has such a thing then can you list them?

Exactly my point, you said you wanted our core values, so I gave you that... but that wasn't good enough so you asked about health care and student debt. I answered you by stating those are symptoms of my first answer... and now we're back to not having a clear concise message?

You asked to debate me on this, I'm not entirely sure that you're equipped. Either that or you just think it's okay to constantly change the rules as you go along or you're trolling.

And so it begins .... and it isn't even the 4th of July yet.
They are just there for a get together to discuss the 'movement', eh?
Bull crap. And this is just what is being reported.


26 Occupy protesters arrested in Center City

Police arrested 26 Occupy movement members during a protest outside the Pennsylvania Convention Center Sunday night. The 20 men and six women were charged with disorderly conduct and obstructing traffic during the protest on the 1200 block of Race Street, police said.

Illegal encampment at tourist site.
Had to hose down the unsanitary plaza after the arrests.

Philly.com - Police order Occupy Philly to Leave Dilworth Plaza - 52 arrested

Police swarmed around City Hall and rousted Occupy Philadelphia protesters from their encampment overnight, more than two days after a deadline passed for them to leave. The occupiers responded by roaming around Center City, scattering and regrouping with police following their every move in a chaotic night of cat-and-mouse that ended before daylight.

"The Dilworth occupation is over," Mayor Nutter said at a news conference just before 7 a.m. Crews were using bulldozers and other heavy equipment to clear up debris and fire hoses to wash down Dilworth Plaza as he spoke.

San Francisco Chronicle - Two Dozen Arrested in Philadelphia at Town Hall

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — More than two dozen protesters with Occupy's national gathering have been arrested after a spontaneous march to Philadelphia's City Hall.

Occupy Philadelphia member Nate Kleinman says the arrests happened around 9 p.m. Sunday. He says a group of people attending the national conference had been on a spontaneous "solidarity march" to City Hall when they were arrested. He says the march wasn't part of the conference's organized events.

Philadelphia police say 26 protesters were arrested and are being charged with disorderly conduct and obstructing a highway, both summary offenses

26 Occupiers Arrested for Disorderly Conduct and Obstructing Traffic at the Convention Center

9 Occupiers Arrested in big fight at Comcast Center 'Sit in'

Occupy Philly in Photos

ETA
Picture from Occupy Philly .. the sign says 'do not litter

Originally posted by FlyersFan
And so it begins .... and it isn't even the 4th of July yet.
They are just there for a get together to discuss the 'movement', eh?
Bull crap. And this is just what is being reported.

Bull crap, eh? Ok... from your OWN sourced links:

Philly.com - Police order Occupy Philly to Leave Dilworth Plaza - 52 arrested

Originally published Nov. 30, 2011

Not current, irrelevent to this discussion

9 Occupiers Arrested in big fight at Comcast Center 'Sit in'

Uploaded Nov. 3, 2011. Hardly current to this discussion as your original beef was over 4th of July events.


Occupy Philly in Photos

Most of the pics in this photo gallery are dated November 2011.... not July 2012. Again, irrelevant to this discussion.

ETA
Picture from Occupy Philly .. the sign says 'do not litter

edit on 7/4/2012 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

The pic is too small for me to see the do not litter sign. Is there any way you could blow it up so that portion of the pic can be seen? I see that this was uploaded and modified with today's date in looking at the properties of the pic, however, given that the majority of your above sources are so out of date it's almost laughable the possibility is there that this is also an out of date pic modified and uploaded today in order to assist in proving a point.

So that leaves the only sourced link directly connected to your beef with the current events in Philly, the story about the 26 arrested for disorderly conduct at the Convention Center. And with any protest, especially an OWS protest, authorities are looking for any excuse to arrest. Now disorderly conduct can be a number of things really from the benign to the nefarious. There is no mention other than they held up traffic. Wow, yeah...holding up traffic, which is a form of disorderly conduct, hardly measures up to your original concerns about unsanitary conditions in a place where a large number of families would be present or the fact that holiday plans would be in ruins due to protestors shouting slogans and disrupting a nice family outing.

Nice try to discredit... I'll give you that. Care to try again?

reply to post by Kali74


I simply asked a question and you backtrack and accuse me of troling.

All I want is very simple. What is Occupys' message?
What do they stand for?

Is there a link I could look up?

reply to post by beezzer


I'm not backtracking even a 1/4 of an inch. You want all this "clarity" on your terms and when I deliver you want me to expand but expansion causes you to say we lack clarity. That is intellectually dishonest, part of debating is conceding when your opponent has made a valid point, not continue moving goal posts. So I refer you back to the cartoon I posted because it is simple enough. Come back to me when you're more interested in knowing than being right.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by beezzer

 

I'm not backtracking even a 1/4 of an inch. You want all this "clarity" on your terms and when I deliver you want me to expand but expansion causes you to say we lack clarity. That is intellectually dishonest, part of debating is conceding when your opponent has made a valid point, not continue moving goal posts. So I refer you back to the cartoon I posted because it is simple enough. Come back to me when you're more interested in knowing than being right.

edit on 4-7-2012 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)

So you base your "Occupy" tenents on a cartoon.

Sounds about right.

Come back to me when you have definite goals, structure and a message.

reply to post by beezzer


Think of it as a visual aide.
I'm not the one in need of such, you are.

ETA Since this is apparently so elusive and by elusive I mean smack you in the face obvious...

Core Value:

1. Resisting the corrosive influence of money in government and policy all over the world that has created an enormous disparity between the .01% and the rest of us.

Goals:

1. Rejecting the paradigm mentioned above.
2. Protesting the sources of corruption, both business and government.
3. To hold open space forums to educate and discuss why and how our core value is true and how to correct it.

Message:

We the people shall no longer allow our silencing as policy and law is passed and enacted that only favor the very wealthy and by means of exploiting the rest of us.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by beezzer

 

Think of it as a visual aide.
I'm not the one in need of such, you are.

What is Occupys' stance on Obamacare/ACA?

reply to post by beezzer


I added to my previous post.

The general consensus ranges in Occupy from, it's not good enough to it's disgusting... it fixes nothing and leans very heavily toward fascism in that we the people are now required by law to pay a corporation for a service or we pay the government in penalty for not doing so.

We want a Single Payer health care system... socialized medicine.

Originally posted by Kali74


We want a Single Payer health care system... socialized medicine.

An actual answer.

Thank you.