A Challenge to All Non-Muslim

reply to post by TheFogHorn


I live in the United States. That's all you need to know. Now you are asking me to speak for other Muslims which I cannot and will not do. It merely seems you want to discredit Islam no matter what and so once you meet a Muslim who doesn't fit your stereotype you are still trying to find others that do. Sorry, FogHorn, but most Muslims just don't fit the stereotype that you and many Americans, thanks to the MSM, have of Muslims.

If you want the answers to your questions then ask each individual Muslim that you meet in America for starters.

"Please don't bring Islam into this"?! You are asking how Muslims view women and then tell me not to bring Islam into it? Do you fail to see the irony of that statement?

As I said I cannot speak for all Muslims. I can merely show you what the Qur'an says and take it from there.

Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
reply to post by TheFogHorn

 

I live in the United States. That's all you need to know. Now you are asking me to speak for other Muslims which I cannot and will not do. It merely seems you want to discredit Islam no matter what and so once you meet a Muslim who doesn't fit your stereotype you are still trying to find others that do. Sorry, FogHorn, but most Muslims just don't fit the stereotype that you and many Americans, thanks to the MSM, have of Muslims.

If you want the answers to your questions then ask each individual Muslim that you meet in America for starters.

"Please don't bring Islam into this"?! You are asking how Muslims view women and then tell me not to bring Islam into it? Do you fail to see the irony of that statement?

As I said I cannot speak for all Muslims. I can merely show you what the Qur'an says and take it from there.

edit on 2-7-2012 by CoolerAbdullah786 because: clarification

Avoiding the questions, You know perfectly well that the majority of muslim men believe women should dress more conservatively, that women who dress provocatively have less cause for complaint if raped and that sexily dressed women OUTDOORS....shock horror.....are meat left out for the dogs.....it's just not in the interests of Islam for you to say it and you are duty bound to only ever do what's best for your religion, even if that means you have to be economical with the truth.

I say don't bring Islam into this because your book can not only be used very effectively to justify the killing thousands of innocent people but also to present a very nice and peaceful PR front for the religion, while the dirty work goes on in the background. The truth is that your religion of peace is only a religion of peace if nothing gets in its way....and liberated, free thinking, femine women let loose on the streets certainly do get in its way.

QUOTE: According to a survey conducted in 2008 by an Egyptian Women’s rights group, 83% of Egyptian women have been sexually harassed. The numbers for foreign women is a staggering 98%. Most of the men in the survey admitted they have harassed women and most of them blamed it on women for dressing provocatively.

www.ruthfullyyours.com...

You're not dealing with a mug here. I'm one of those pesky little loose cannons.....a victim of Islamification who got away and developed a big mouth.

reply to post by TheFogHorn


Thats funny because the article you linked to was taken from a magazine run by a man named David Horowitz, about which was stated in the 2011 report of, "Fear Incorporated: the Roots of the Islamophobia Network in the United States" the Center for American Progress had cited Horowitz as a prominent figure instrumental in demonizing Islam and spreading fear about an Islamic takeover of Western society. Horowitz's response was that the Center had "joined the Muslim Brotherhood"

I really do not trust the accuracy of right wing conservative magazines who are known for their anti Islamic agenda.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by TheFogHorn

 

Thats funny because the article you linked to was taken from a magazine run by a man named David Horowitz, about which was stated in the 2011 report of, "Fear Incorporated: the Roots of the Islamophobia Network in the United States" the Center for American Progress had cited Horowitz as a prominent figure instrumental in demonizing Islam and spreading fear about an Islamic takeover of Western society. Horowitz's response was that the Center had "joined the Muslim Brotherhood"

I really do not trust the accuracy of right wing conservative magazines who are known for their anti Islamic agenda.

edit on 2-7-2012 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)

I don't give two hoots who wrote it. It fits with my experiences. End of.

reply to post by TheFogHorn


See that would be the difference between people such as yourself and people such as myself. I much prefer the real truth rather than judging over a billion people by one persons experience in one ghetto, and biased articles which are in agreement with one persons hatred.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by TheFogHorn

 

See that would be the difference between people such as yourself and people such as myself. I much prefer the real truth rather than judging over a billion people by one persons experience in one ghetto, and biased articles which are in agreement with one persons hatred.

The real truth for you is that all you are concerned about is how people view you in your headscarf. How shallow is that? My real truth is that non-muslim women are suffering at the hands of sexist and sexually depraved muslim men in countries around the world that are supposed to be liberal and safe for liberal thinking women. Well, they mostly still are but mold spots are developing.....to your great satisfaction no doubt.

never mind.
sigh

Originally posted by TheFogHorn

Avoiding the questions,

Not at all. I answered your questions. Now you are just flat out lying. I answered your questions and asked you to expand on the fourth one, a request which you ignored. People can go back and verify for themselves who is telling the truth.

You know perfectly well that the majority of muslim men believe women should dress more conservatively,

[snipped]I do not know that and neither do you. Have you polled all Muslim men?

QUOTE: According to a survey conducted in 2008 by an Egyptian Women’s rights group, 83% of Egyptian women have been sexually harassed. The numbers for foreign women is a staggering 98%. Most of the men in the survey admitted they have harassed women and most of them blamed it on women for dressing provocatively.

Even if this is true, there are fundamental flaws here. For one, you can find surveys and polls that represent any viewpoint. Polls can be manufactured and fabricated and designed to illustrate any point one wishes to make. Two, this is Egypt. Egypt is not the entirety of Islam. Three, once again you are stereotypically trying to equate what Islam says with what Muslims do. You can pretty much do that with any group, religious or not. Just because one claims something is done in the name of a religion, political ideology, etc., does not mean it is an accurate representation of said ideology. Show me where these things are condoned in the Qur'an, then we'll start talking.

You're not dealing with a mug here. I'm one of those pesky little loose cannons.....a victim of Islamification who got away and developed a big mouth.

Well I'm truly sorry that you were abused at the hands of so-called Muslims. On behalf of Muslim men all over the world who do not behave in the ways you were treated, and in ways that Islam does not condone, I apologize.

But when it comes down to it, now I see where your motivation lies: To fully discredit Islam because you were mistreated and/or abused by Muslim(s).

Originally posted by TheFogHorn

I don't give two hoots who wrote it. It fits with my experiences. End of.

No, that's not end of story. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. One's motives always count when weighing the validity of something. I'm not going to trust something produced by an Islamophobic bigot (like Horowitz or Pamela Gellar) in the same way I'm not going to trust an anti-America poll produced by someone from al-Qa'eda.

Originally posted by TheFogHorn


The real truth for you is that all you are concerned about is how people view you in your headscarf. How shallow is that?

That's not shallow at all, especially considering how Muslim women are disrespected in post-9/11 America. It's very hypocritical for you to claim to care about the rights of women in the Muslim world, but then you turn a blind eye to abuses of Muslim women in the Western world.

So you think it's wrong for a "Muslim" man to abuse a Muslim woman but not for an American to verbally, or God forbid physically, abuse an American Muslim woman?

I feel as though someone is playing the innocent and also attempting to confuse the conversation in order to end it.

Women who live amongst muslims will find they are under increasing pressure to dress in an Islamic way or face retribution in the form of unwanted attention or even attacks.....in muslim countries and in muslim ghettos in non-muslim countries. Either it's because Islam makes men intolerant sexist abusers or it's that muslim men are inherently intolerant sexist abusers. I prefer to think the religion had something to do with it.

Facts from Wiki's 'Hijab' page...... en.wikipedia.org...

Non-governmental enforcement of hijab is found in many parts of the Muslim world.

Hamas, reportedly used "a mixture of consent and coercion" to "'restore' hijab" on urban educated women in Gaza in the late 1970s and 1980s.....

.....In the course of this campaign women who chose not to wear the hijab were verbally and physically harassed, with the result that the hijab was being worn 'just to avoid problems on the streets'.



France...."Girls who did not conform were excoriated, or chased, or beaten by fanatical young men meting out Islamic justice.

'The Weekly Standard, a survey conducted in France in May 2003 reportedly "found that 77% of girls wearing the hijab said they did so because of physical threats from Islamist groups."

Islamists in other countries have been accused of attacking or threatening to attack the faces of women in an effort to intimidate them from wearing of makeup or allegedly immodest dress.'

QUOTED SNIPPETS END.

.........................................................................

MY OWN WORDS....

If a woman feels more comfortable hiding herself in a headscarf it is because she knows or feels the men around her view her primarily as a sexual object. Either she wants her husband to be the only person to get a look-in, peep-show style, or maybe she's afraid of the strange men on the street. Either way, she views outside men as unwanted, frightening or not to be trusted.

The reason why veil wearing started was due to male insecurity.....Mohammad's. He neither trusted his many wives and concubines to not give the eye to the many visiting dudes nor trusted said dudes to not sneak out with a Mo Maid. Mohammad treated his wives like a herd of sheep, veiled off.

It all comes down to lack of trust in the goodness of other people. Mohammad didn't trust visiting men and therefore his wives had to sweat and be tickled behind a face veil. That resulted in the pernicious belief women must be hidden, women cannot be trusted and men will go wild if they do actually get to see a beauty. It started off unhealthily and it's not got any better.

The problem with women covering up excessively is that they then have the responsibility for their own safety and the men are allowed to carry on with their sexist mentality. Muslim men in muslim countries or areas are not encouraged to develop their character and treatment of women. The result of this lack of socialisation is evident in examples such as Logan in Egypt, the female blond journalist who was repeatedly sexually assaulted by many men. This level of depravity is due to the men not being used to a pretty face and blond hair. That is where we in the West are heading. Take note.

Designing a way of life around the lowest common demonimator is never going to result in a good system. The onus for female security should not lie squarely at women's feet; men must meet us halfway. Women who cover up excessively are doing men as great a disservice as women who walk around looking and acting like Page 3 girls. Islam and the porn industry are causing men to miss out on the opportunity to really know women as equals. Muslims and trash are as bad as each other in terms of giving women the chance to be just ordinary human beings....not overly covered and not overly exposed....just normal.



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Originally posted by TheFogHorn
I feel as though someone is playing the innocent and also attempting to confuse the conversation in order to end it.

The only one trying to "confuse the conversation" is you. I've answered all of your questions and addressed your points. You are the one who is hell-bent on stereotyping Islam and all Muslims. When one has an agenda then the truth no longer matters to them.

Again, you keep saying time and time again that "Islam makes men sexist." Yet you offer nothing to back that up other than "Some [in your eyes, ALL] Muslim men are sexist and abuse women." You are no different than the woman who claims that all men are potential rapists. There's a lot of sexism and abuse of women in Western society also. Do you blame Western society in totality for that also in the same way that you blame Islam for the actions of some Muslim men?

No one is denying that sexism and abuse of women exists in Muslim societies. I'm merely challenging your assumption that Islam is the reason. Sexism and abuse of women exists in every society. Why do you not blame those ideologies? Christian men abuse women, why do you not blame Christianity? There are plenty of sexist Bible verses. Here are a few:

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God." - 1 Corinthians 11:3

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." - 1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord." - Colossians 3:18

"These older women must train the younger women to love their husbands and their children, to live wisely and be pure, to work in their homes, to do good, and to be submissive to their husbands. Then they will not bring shame on the word of God." - Titus 2:4-5

Train young women to be "submissive" to their husbands? There are many others if you want to see them. And these are all New Testament verses. So no one can play that "Well that's the Old Testament" nonsense. So do you blame Christianity for when Christian men abuse their wives?

And now the niqab was invented by Muhammad because he was insecure?

Again your clearly motivated by nothing but bigotry in regards to Islam. You don't even know the history of the hijab and niqab.

You are also ignoring all of the women who choose to wear hijab. Of course in those instances, because of your Islamophobia, I'm sure you will then commit a special pleading fallacy and claim that those women do that because they are brainwashed. See, to people like you, who claim you believe in gender equality, you ultimately talk as if women are weaker and so easily brainwashed by men. So which is it? You can't play both sides of the fence.

As-salaam alaikum.

QUOTING WIKI...en.wikipedia.org...

QUOTE STARTS....According to at least three authors (Karen Armstrong, Reza Aslan and Leila Ahmed), the stipulations of the hijab were originally meant only for Muhammad's wives, and were intended to maintain their inviolability. This was because Muhammad conducted all religious and civic affairs in the mosque adjacent to his home:

People were constantly coming in and out of this compound at all hours of the day. When delegations from other tribes come to speak with Prophet Muhammad, they would set up their tents for days at a time inside the open courtyard, just a few feet away from the apartments in which Prophet Muhammad's wives slept. And new emigrants who arrived in Yatrib would often stay within the mosque's walls until they could find suitable homes.[15]
According to Ahmed:

By instituting seclusion Prophet Muhammad was creating a distance between his wives and this thronging community on their doorstep.[17]
They argue that the term darabat al-hijab ("taking the veil"), was used synonymously and interchangeably with "becoming Prophet Muhammad's wife", and that during Muhammad's life, no other Muslim woman wore the hijab. Aslam suggests that Muslim women started to wear the hijab to emulate Prophet Muhammad's wives, who are revered as "Mothers of the Believers" in Islam,[15] and states "there was no tradition of veiling until around 627 C.E." in the Muslim community.[15][17]

QUOTE ENDS

reply to post by TheFogHorn


If you have to quote Wikipedia then clearly you don't know the history of it. And part of what you presented is factual. Muhammad's wives wore it so people would know that's Muhammad's wife. Give her the respect she deserves. What you missed also was that when other women saw the way that Muhammad's wives were treated, the respect they were given, other women of that time started voluntarily wearing the niqab because they wanted the same respect and treatment.

The niqab was not originally a tool of oppression how it is used in some Middle Eastern countries.

Regardless if this lady isn't wearing a scarf or revealing clothing she is going to be seen as a sex object. She's beautiful. Modest clothing doesn't really stop that from happening. Nothing stops our biological drive to reproduce.

Originally posted by RealSpoke

Regardless if this lady isn't wearing a scarf or revealing clothing she is going to be seen as a sex object. She's beautiful. Modest clothing doesn't really stop that from happening. Nothing stops our biological drive to reproduce.

edit on 3-7-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)

You are right....I still got stalked and breathed all over by muslim men despite pulling my hooded coat around me as close as possible. I never get anything like that walking down the street in a pretty dress and with my hair on show.....in a non-muslim area. The fact is the men think differently.....very differently.

reply to post by TheFogHorn


Really? Western non-Muslim men don't "stalk and breathe" all over women? You know that's just not true. And just because men don't do it to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen to women every day. Again, more dishonesty from you in order to justify your bigotry.

The ahole who raped me wasn't Muslim. He was a Christian.

Rapists are in every religion, every country, everywhere. I'm really concerned that you have such a carefree attitude about the men you live near now. No one can better judge your safety than you, but please be careful. The man who raped me was someone I knew and trusted.

I'm not telling you this to make you fear all men. Most men are decent people who abhor violence against women. Just be aware of your surroundings and be safe.

reply to post by TheFogHorn


If Muslim men regularly sexually harassed non-Muslim women in the USA it would be widely known and there'd be mass vigilante justice going on especially since so many people hate them.

EVEN if your story is true you cannot judge a whole group of people off one experience. A Muslim robbed me, do I consider them all thieves? No.

I suspect you're just trolling now