A Challenge to All Non-Muslim

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital
I feel sorry for the OP OpinionatedB, she only wanted to share her experiences as a Muslim in the West, however I think she needs to understand the stigma attached to Islam...

You mean the stigma which non-muslims have attached to Islam.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
Nice post I guess...I have no issue with faith. But I have issues with how women are treated in the muslim world.

So do I.

The Koran clearly states that husbands are allowed to beat disobedient wives.

Koran 4:34

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Koran 4:34

In the Hadith Muslim, Muhammad struck his favourite wife (Aisha who he had sex with when she was 9) in the chest becuase she had left the house without his permission.

Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Hadith Muslim 4:2127

Islam condones wife beating. It is a mistake to assume that Islam is just another religion.

Lets just say that this is true and they have been given permission by whats written, which most westerners would classify as being wrong. Which is worse in your eyes, A person who knows its wrong to beat a woman and still does or a person whos told their whole lives its OK and does?

Should we bring up stats on how much domestic violence occurs in western countries.

reply to post by OpinionatedB


Interesting thread! Although, forgive me for saying this, but are you seeking some kind of acceptance because you have chosen to wear the hijab? You will never find it, because people condemn what they don't understand. The only acceptance that should be sought after is the acceptance of the Almighty. Can't please or make everyone like you, because that is never going to happen. When it comes to wearing religious attire, dressing modestly, or as the Christians and Jews do wearing symbols of their faith like the Crucifix of the Star of David? That is their own business, and they have every right in the world to profess their faith in public. Some people like to pat themselves on the back because they are modest or more inherently religious than the next person. I have seen it with my own eyes. It is as though they are following their Creator's teachings and principles for their own earthly self-gratification instead of seeking gratification in the next world. Of course, only my personal perception.

See, I frown upon people who goad or showboat about themselves through their professions, faiths, families, or any of that kind of thing. I suppose some Muslim women wear their hijab on the inside? Meaning that they don't have to show the world that they are modest or proper by wearing a garment of clothing. They show those traits by acting that way in public around co-workers, acquaintances, and even family. To me, that is courage.

Just my personal opinion on the subject, and if a woman wants to cover themselves? Great! To each their own, but I would steer clear of judging others who chose not too. Their relationship with the Almighty, or how they choose to conduct themselves in society is their own business. We are not passing out medals to people for helping the poor, going to services everyday, wearing a headscarf, a Crucifix, yamulka, or a Star of David. People should be doing that because deep down in their hearts they want too. They should not be doing it as a form of self gratification, to satisfy a self-imposed persecution complex, or even to please members of the faith, family, or society in general. If they are doing it for the aforementioned reasons? It is a lie.

I have known and befriended people who adhere to Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. Whatever they want to wear, or however they want to adhere to their faiths is their own business. That is something personal between them and the Almighty. Wear what you want! In other words, we need to stop worrying about how the world sees us, and worry about how we see ourselves. Just some ramblings on my part. Interesting to read a different take on things.

reply to post by Jakes51


Its a matter of trying for some interfaith understanding. Seeing is people of other faiths or non faiths in America are capable of seeing something for what it is, a religious choice, one that does in fact get discriminated against based on ignorance.

Thank you for telling me people are incapable of opening their mind, because when approached with a different thought, such as not judging a person based on clothing and media associations with that clothing, they want to say that there is attention seeking involved rather than seeing something for what it might actually be.

I have been accused many times of only attention seeking, which is very far from the truth. But thank you for naming yourself as one of the accusers and demonizers of who I happen to be.

Also, never once was i judgemental of women who do not cover, only trying to show another side to/of women who choose to cover.

reply to post by OpinionatedB


I realize that you are trying to pull aside the veil of stigma associated with the hijab. People can be quite stubborn, and I have witnessed for myself what you have said to have experienced in public. It is wrong, but what can anyone do about it. Just do whatever is right for you. Can't lead a horse to water and make it drink. That is the world we live in, and I don't see it changing.

If you thought I was singling you out for anything? I was not. Nor did I imply that you ever judged women from your faith for not wearing the hijab. As far as I see it, I can care either way. I am indifferent to the subject. I only pointed out that some people tend to wear their faiths on their sleeves, and do it for a myriad of reasons that involve personal gratification instead of spiritual ones. I said some, and not all. Nor, did I single you out as being part of that crowd. Your reasons for wearing the hijab are your own.

Like you said, it is a matter of faith, and a personal choice. I commend you for bringing up this topic, and shedding light on it from the Muslim perspective. However, I tend to be overly pessimistic, and people tend to be stubborn when it comes to violating their comfort zone. I wish the world was a utopia, but it is not. I guess it is no fault of own for trying to make the world one? I am not close-minded in the least to your views and ideas, but merely indifferent. Thanks for the reply!

reply to post by Jakes51


Whereas I have always come at life from a more optimistic angle...... I would much rather attempt to give people credit for having a mind that can accept others for what they are, should they understand them better, or see things in a different light.

But, you cared enough to read, and to post, which means you do care a little.... its either that or overly bored... I also give you the benefit of doubt, by choosing to believe you do care a little, than none at all!



thanks by the way, sorry for being overly a B... I seem to be in a mood, I am just tired you will have to forgive me

reply to post by OpinionatedB


No harm and no foul, and forgive me if what I said came off the wrong way. Optimism is a good thing, but sometimes it is like beating a dead horse. Like you, I was once a perpetual optimist. Then reality set in, and I decided to just take things as they come and try to reason and rationalize as much as possible this weird and often off-the-wall world we call home.

I realize this is a topic you feel strongly about. As it should, because you and anyone else should be treated with respect and common decency. That, however, is not the case a lot of the time. People tend to judge on face value, instead of getting to know someone individually. They only know what they have been told or taught, whether it be by the idiot box(TV), the internet, parents, or even some religious clerics. It is really a shame, because it locks them out from the fullness of the world. Therefore, indifference is a cozy place for me. People can do what they want. However, since you have gone out of your way to personally and so eloquently state your ideas about such a controversial topic? Perhaps, I can be a little optimistic. Thanks for sharing your views.

Originally posted by DeadSnow
reply to post by ollncasino

 

Have you actually read the Quran or do you just copy and past excerpts taken out of context from websites and blogs?

What kind of proof do you desire?
How about a very detailed and sourced article in Wikipedia on the life of Mohammed?
Is that non-biased enough for you?
en.wikipedia.org...
Certainly, I read that article and was somewhat surprised to learn the number of wars that Mohammed himself and his followers were involved in...as part of the process of spreading their NEW faith. Contrast that with Jesus, who ONLY got violent one time with the banksters (moneychangers) of his day....and Jesus didn't kill anyone. (it is sad to say that the Roman Catholics did not follow Jesus' example throughout much of its history, until rather recently)

Or is it possible that you will only accept non-factual and emotional speech or links that agree with your pre-concieved notions?

Originally posted by Jakes51
reply to post by OpinionatedB

 

No harm and no foul, and forgive me if what I said came off the wrong way. Optimism is a good thing, but sometimes it is like beating a dead horse. Like you, I was once a perpetual optimist. Then reality set in, and I decided to just take things as they come and try to reason and rationalize as much as possible this weird and often off-the-wall world we call home.

What you just said actually pegs me to a T..... I used to be much worse than I am today... now only mildly optimistic with lots of reason and rationality and acceptance thrown in for balance! But still more optimistic than most with optimistic tendencies which I try to keep some of, without some I doubt life would seem much worth living....

we must all have hope in our fellow humans

reply to post by OpinionatedB


Your current position is a reasonable one. Just don't let optimism blind you to reality. Chances are, there will be plenty of disappointment, insults, misunderstandings, and other improprieties when being overly optimistic about others. It is what it is. At least as I see it from my perspective. In anything that I encounter, I just take the good with the bad. Try to make lemonade out of all the lemons. Just let bygones be bygones.That is all any of us can do.

reply to post by Jakes51


Ohh trust me, not one person in life has ever let me be blind to reality... I am quite familiar with lifes difficulties to say the least of it.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
Also, never once was i judgemental of women who do not cover, only trying to show another side to/of women who choose to cover.

Not strictly true. You stated that the hijab signified your 'decency' thereby implying that those that do not wear it are indecent. Being insidious about it, does not make it any less of a judgement. For modesty purposes alone the hijab is unnecessary, I can understand it as a means of advertising ones unavailability or as symbol of your religious affiliation, but only when that is sympathetically matched by the individual wearing it. Modesty is about far more than not showing flesh, and is as much about understanding what it is that attracts the attention of others, rather than just covering up what is natural about us and failing to learn the lesson of humility. For example, it is pointless covering your head to state you are unavailable to men's advances and then using your eyes and body language to elicit male attention. Your decency, anyone's decency, is demonstrated in the actions and example that is set, not in the wearing of a uniform.