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I was only trying to point out that if something is up for debate then the parameters of the discussion should be all encompassing and not restrictive of a certain aspect.
I will just say that it is not as black and white as you portray it to be. There are foundational beliefs based on scripture that lead most Christians to the belief that Jesus is God.
It is not something that can be discounted so flippantly.
While your beliefs are being respected, you are quite casually disrespecting the beliefs of others by telling them they are worshipping a false God. Respect would lead with,"it is my belief..."
But I digress, I am in total agreement with you on how these threads typically devolve into bashing and name calling. It is sad actually. People need to learn that this world is big enough to have room for all kinds of views and beliefs. Just live and let live. Peace.
you are quite casually disrespecting the beliefs of others by telling them they are worshipping a false God.
And i admit, IF he had said "i am God" i would also believe it. I've studied his words for years... the man did not lie, and his lessons are flawless...
Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by micmerci
In regards to the passage in Genesis in which the God of the OT does not know where Adam was- Do you think perhaps God asked the question for Adam's benefit. Much like a father would gently question his young child when he KNEW that the child did something wrong?
This is a good question. As Father does things not mainly for him, but for the receiver as well. I can't quote examples, because we don't have Father speaking in the NT, posing questions, only the son.
But, when Jesus cried out when he was dying, why have your forsaken me. Father gave him the answer as a question, not a direct answer.
edit on 26-6-2012 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)
I didn't make the connection until later but that's how God works, "GUIDES into all truth", not "Gives truth in lump sum." When we are believers, we are not automatically all knowing, but it's foolish to deny the words of Jesus and say "we'll never know", because I can give scriptures that would snuff out that deception.
Mark 10: 11 He said to them, "“Whoever divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery against her. 12 If a woman herself divorces her husband, and marries another, she commits adultery.”"
As JMDewey pointed out, there was a flaw in the experiment. The actual flaw being that I was fully aware of other sayings of Jesus in other places in the synoptics ( my mind and emotions are a non sterile laboratory ). While reading in Mark about the early ministry of Jesus, and how the people of Galilee province received his teaching with joy (3:7,8) in my mind was the sayings of woe from Luke 10: "woe to you ... " about the very same people. What? What happened?
Now here is my theory: The death of John the Baptist, who Jesus had very high regard for. Elijah, if you will. The only Elijah who would come before the end (whatever that may be). Take the rather sterile saying on divorce and marriage to another.
Mark 10: 11 He said to them, "“Whoever divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery against her. 12 If a woman herself divorces her husband, and marries another, she commits adultery.”"
Taken in its historical and political context, this saying is anything but sterile. Jesus already pretty much put Moses in his place, compromiser to the hardness of heart. John had been beheaded for saying it wasn't lawful for Herod Antipas to marry his brother's wife. Herod Antipas had been married to Phasaelis, the daughter of King Aretas IV of Nabatea. She was a border treaty wife, seal or guarantor of the border between Perea and Nabatea. So this simple family matter of divorce by Antipas so he he could marry his niece was a matter of war.
Did Jesus fall into great depression when he saw his flock go off to prepare for war? Family member against family member, some fighting for Galilee and Perea just because they were subjects of Antipas, and others against because Nabatea and John the Baptist had been wronged?
Did his depression morph into a suicidal resignation? That's when he started telling his disciples that they were on their way to Jerusalem, where he would get killed. He quoted Zechariah 13:7 later to back up his claim of all his disciples falling away, Mark 7:27. What was Jesus doing?
It seemed obvious to me that he was conceding the field to the OT god who punishes his servants for being his servants, and taught his disciples to do likewise, "take up your cross and follow me."
During that time, Jesus was pushing people away, ( that's the source of condemnation feelings ). I'm not willing to concede the field to the god who desired the death of Jesus. That's not my God.
The world has left no place for Marcionism. It was brutally crushed. If it had not been crushed, but allowed to survive into the modern era, the neo-Marcionites would have dropped the idea that the OT god was creator, and realized that his claim of being the creator was a big fat lie. But no, that option for a neo-Marcionism has been completely removed from the table. Please allow me to leave the table also. (Whoops! Have I just conceded the field?).
How do you know the one hes speaking of are the "very same" people?
Do you believe all marriages are "ordained" by God so to speak?
Perhaps you are simply reading into these verses a bit... you did say your Christian background tends to give a bias...
Is it because it uses the words sheep and shepard?
I don't knoooow,. It was a feelings experiment, after all.
No. I believe marriage is a community matter, as in common law, "they are married, who present themselves to the community as married." Besides that, there is a legal establishment as "next of kin" which is assumed "general power of attorney", to make decisions regarding health and property for one another. That is one-ness.
If partners find themselves unable, for some reason or another, to fulfill this, divorce is appropriate. This does happen, even when there is no prior intent. People change.
You believe, and I believe, that OT YHWH is not a just or merciful character. Why did Jesus play to his script?
"7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I (YHWH) will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
I can't remember if you ever said whether you were spared from a Christian upbringing or not. It is extremely difficult (perhaps impossible for some) to break free from the idea that the Old Testament is a good book. There may need to be support groups dedicated to such a task.
To a recovering Christian, it can only seem that Jesus decided to suicidally dance to the devil's tune, then tell his followers to do the same! That's what picking up the cross means to recovering Christians.
Allow me to direct you to windword's rant, The Problem With God. I feel like taking a break for now.
Actually, I should add: I have no intention of going to Jerusalem, ever. If someone says, "Hey look! The Holy City!" I will not go. Even if I'm raised from the dead and someone says, "Look! The Holy City!" I will not go.
Here is a book I recommend everyone own a copy of, Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament , G. Beale (editor), by far the reference book I use the most.
You're going to have to direct me to where HE quoted this... He never uses YHWH... only in certain translations, not in the KJV
For Hamilton, the nature of Jesus’ self-understanding remains beyond our historical reach. It is not the historical Jesus but the Christ of the kerygma whom Hamilton affirms, the Jesus "bringing the Kingdom, the new age, here and now into the midst of ordinary lives" who shows us a "way to be human," who establishes a bond of comradeship, who draws us out of our private lives into the world, who provides us with a place to stand. "What he was is hidden; what he proclaimed, offered, defined, is not." Hamilton has repudiated God, not Jesus -- not the Christ of the kerygma.
In the detective mode, God is found dead, "dead in the souls of one’s contemporaries," as Camus said. But lately Hamilton has moved out of the detective approach and into the "killer" mode: "Now I am more interested in the murderer," he says. Here God is not dead at all, "but very much alive, murderous and needing to be killed. And ‘illustrated’ by your own choice of imams, generals, politicians, TV shills." In the killer mode, a body is not found, a death is required. As Hamilton has written in his latest book, Reading Moby Dick and Other Essays (Peter Lang, 1989) :
Today, the death of God experience in its second coming is less like Angela Lansbury finding an unexpected corpse on Sunday night in her kitchen and more like the murderer who put the corpse there in the first . . . . In its present form, the death of God experience suggests that the God of the great Western monotheistic faiths -- at least in the First and Second Worlds -- is too male, too dangerous, too violent to be allowed to live. Death of God today is not finding a body and figuring out who and why. It is the capture, understanding, and abolition of a dangerous 20th-century ideology.
"Obviously, because of what is going on in Christianity and Islam," Hamilton has concluded, "people with Gods are dangerous. And one of the things you can do to help your brothers and sisters is to take Gods away from people so their weapons won’t be quite so sharp as they are with monotheism."
The Dangerous God: A Profile of William Hamilton
by Lloyd Steffen
I really do wish the best for Yahweh even after all he's done. Hopefully he realize he doesn't have to take energy/prayers from anyone because he IS light can can channel that power from within like us all.