Jesus Vs. OT God (The imposter)

This is not aimed at anyone in particular... rather, anyone who reads the bible or has read it.

Take it as you will...



One man in the bible knew the truth of God... He is "the truth, the life, and the way"

But the God of the OT is not who Jesus speaks of... The Father is not the same as the God of the OT...

Before i continue let me remind the reader of this verse that is found in all three of the synoptic gospels...

That being, "a kingdom divided against itself can not stand"


Let start with "the garden"... as Adam walked in the Garden with "the lord" after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge... Now before we look at this i'll give you what Jesus said of the Father...

Matthew 6

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him

Yet... As Adam walks in the Garden In Genesis 3... We find a "God" that doesn't seem to know his "son"... or what he has done... Or even where he is...

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Moving on...

In Exodus... "Gods word" says...

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

And what Jesus says according to what the Father told him... (The best passage in the entire bible)

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

The Father is merciful...

The OT God knows not Forgiveness... or Mercy....Even though that is his claim...

Look...

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

God is Jealous? I think not... This Imposter is Jealous, envious and Wrathful...

Not qualities of the one true God... Lets see what some of the Authors of the NT have to say about God...

Far be it for myself to quote Paul... but even he had some things correct... Pauls stance on love is beyond compare...

But first... lets hear from John...

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

Clearly stated... God is love... Now of course God is much more then just love... but it is love that brings us to him...

Now lets hear Paul....

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.

Love does not Envy... It is NOT Jealous... This verse completely contradicts the OT God...

Moving on...

Forgiveness...

Joshua 24

19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the Lord: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

Yet, just after "the lords prayer" one of the most famous passages in history... You'll find this...

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

But wait... Theres more...

Peter needed clairifcation.... which Jesus gave... Obviously!!

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


One final note... www.biblegateway.com...

2 kings
10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.


Yet... the true man of God said this...

54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.



These are only a few glaring examples of the differences between the God of the OT... and the one true God...

There are MANY more....

So now ask yourself...

Are you sure you know your God?

I wish to ask some questions to open up for discussion:

In regards to the passage in Genesis in which the God of the OT does not know where Adam was- Do you think perhaps God asked the question for Adam's benefit. Much like a father would gently question his young child when he KNEW that the child did something wrong?

As for the God of the OT being a jealous God- the Hebrew word for God's jealousy, qanna, is always used in the context of idol worship AND is not the same word as human jealousy. Never in the scriptures is qanna used to describe human jealousy. Your thoughts?

More to follow

reply to post by micmerci

In regards to the passage in Genesis in which the God of the OT does not know where Adam was- Do you think perhaps God asked the question for Adam's benefit. Much like a father would gently question his young child when he KNEW that the child did something wrong?

This is a good question. As Father does things not mainly for him, but for the receiver as well. I can't quote examples, because we don't have Father speaking in the NT, posing questions, only the son.

But, when Jesus cried out when he was dying, why have your forsaken me. Father gave him the answer as a question, not a direct answer.

On the matter of forgiveness- I am of the belief that our forgiveness was accomplished by the grace of God through the redemption of our sins accomplished by Christ dying on the cross. However, forgiveness cannot be fulfilled without repentance. For an analogy- Our forgiveness was paid for by Jesus and can be represented by a theater ticket left at the Will Call window. Unless we go to that window to pick up the ticket (repentance) we cannot enjoy all the benefits that ticket represents.

These are my beliefs as I understand them from my studies of scripture. I am not trying to put anyone down or force my beliefs. I just enjoy civil discussion on this subject. I just want to clarify that because it is very difficult to determine tone in writing and I do not want to offend.

reply to post by Akragon


As a Bible believing Christian I too have started to question just who this "God" of the Old Testament is. It never felt right to me even as a little child. And I know my Father/Creator/God loves me and made me the questioning, searching person that I am and certainly understands my concerns about this.

reply to post by micmerci

In regards to the passage in Genesis in which the God of the OT does not know where Adam was- Do you think perhaps God asked the question for Adam's benefit. Much like a father would gently question his young child when he KNEW that the child did something wrong?

Perhaps...

But this question speaks to this God and him being "omnipotent"... even "all seeing, all knowing"...

Why would a "God" need to ask him, "where art thou?" We're speaking of the first man/woman on earth... IF they are the only two... would it not be simple to find him in a garden?

Further in that chapter you read "God" asking him again...

Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Would God not know that they ate from the tree immediately?

Not only that but would he not have known his children would disobey him in the first place?

As for the God of the OT being a jealous God- the Hebrew word for God's jealousy, qanna, is always used in the context of idol worship AND is not the same word as human jealousy. Never in the scriptures is qanna used to describe human jealousy. Your thoughts?

I will leave that be... I don't believe God is Jealous, nor does he have any reason to be...

I am of the belief that our forgiveness was accomplished by the grace of God through the redemption of our sins accomplished by Christ dying on the cross.

See if you can find Jesus ever using the word "grace"... That is Pauls doctine... Jesus did not teach the doctrine of "grace"...

However, forgiveness cannot be fulfilled without repentance. For an analogy- Our forgiveness was paid for by Jesus and can be represented by a theater ticket left at the Will Call window. Unless we go to that window to pick up the ticket (repentance) we cannot enjoy all the benefits that ticket represents.

This is not what Jesus taught...

Forgive and you will be forgiven... Show mercy and you will be shown mercy... But if you do not forgive others, HE will not forgive you, and if you do not show mercy to others... you will be shown none.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

These are my beliefs as I understand them from my studies of scripture. I am not trying to put anyone down or force my beliefs. I just enjoy civil discussion on this subject. I just want to clarify that because it is very difficult to determine tone in writing and I do not want to offend.

No worries my friend... i try to keep my threads as civil as possible...

reply to post by Akragon

Not only that but would he not have known his children would disobey him in the first place?

Surely so. Let me expand on this further, from the point of above. Father many times likes to keep things to himself. At this time, he would not tell anyone above, that they were going to do this act. This was done, so that the others would not intervene, because Father needed it to play out as he intended it to. If Father would have let it known, this was going to happen, above would have tried to warn them strongly not to do it, and the consequences.

Yes, Father told them not to do it, but he did not tell them all the reasons behind it.

Now, for him to ask them of this, he is doing this, so that all whom are watching is given an account of the conversation. Usually conversations such as these, are only given to a select few. In doing this, we see how Father asks the vessels to give an account of what they were doing.

The story of Adam and Eve, is one of the most accurate ones in the OT.

reply to post by jhill76

The story of Adam and Eve, is one of the most accurate ones in the OT.

Am i to believe a snake whispered into Eves ear?

And that man "appeared" on earth some 6k years ago?

And that there we're no other "human kind" on earth... only two?

reply to post by Akragon

Am i to believe a snake whispered into Eves ear?

Just like Jesus dying on a cross, it was not of an actual snake. But, below does use snakes to get their message across, or to watch through the vessel of a snake, the watching of man.

And that man "appeared" on earth some 6k years ago?

All about the cycles I have told you about. Man has been here many times.

And that there we're no other "human kind" on earth... only two?

There were more, only the account of Adam and Eve was written. Below it shows how others were here, just not written in detail.

Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.

Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch.

Again, I said it is one of the most accurate, it still lacks many details about all that was.

reply to post by Akragon

Yet... As Adam walks in the Garden In Genesis 3... We find a "God" that doesn't seem to know his "son"... or what he has done... Or even where he is...

Seriously? This was obviously rhetorical. Jesus does the same thing in Luke 8:45 -

Who touched me?" Jesus asked. When they all denied it, Peter said, "Master, the people are crowding and pressing against you.

It doesn't mean they didn't know the answer.
If you are a parent, you know what God is doing in the beginning with Adam - when your child does something bad, you question them - even knowing the answer - to see if they will tell the truth.

Jesus, in Luke, asked this question not for himself (because he knew who touched him), but for the woman who actually did. Read on and you'll see that he states the one who touched him was healed, and she confesses - and he says in Luke 8:48 -

Then he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace."

Exodus 21:22

This is the law. It's eternal. You need to understand that the OT is not "invalid" anymore, God's word is forever. The law still applies.

Matthew 5:44

The whole reason Jesus says this is because there is NO ONE who is capable of fulfilling the law, without becoming hypocrites and being condemned. That is why love overpowers the law. That is why the law hangs on love. That is why Jesus said only those who are without sin may stone the adulterer, yet he himself told her he doesn't accuse her. That is why Jesus forgives, because of love.

The Father is merciful...

The OT God knows not Forgiveness... or Mercy....Even though that is his claim...

It's not wrong to be jealous. Is it wrong for a man to be jealous of his fiancee is spending time with other men? If it's wrong, I don't want to be right.

But first... lets hear from John...

Oh, you finally want to listen to John? Let's listen to John 1 then -

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Love does not Envy... It is NOT Jealous... This verse completely contradicts the OT God...

Envy and Jealously are not the same thing. Envy is coveting someone's possessions, Jealousy is the feeling of resentment in relationships, as I described above.

Forgiveness...

Joshua 24

Because they were worshiping false idols. After he told them this, they said they wanted to worship the LORD, and Joshua told them to throw away their false idols.

Yet, just after "the lords prayer" one of the most famous passages in history... You'll find this...
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

But wait... Theres more...

Peter needed clairifcation.... which Jesus gave... Obviously!!
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Read the parable right after this. He explains why.

"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

Are you sure you know your God?

Are you?

reply to post by Lionhearte

Seriously? This was obviously rhetorical. Jesus does the same thing in Luke 8:45 -

Jesus was not God...

Exodus 21:22

This is the law. It's eternal. You need to understand that the OT is not "invalid" anymore, God's word is forever. The law still applies.

Keep reading... this is not law... this is choice... Either take revenge or turn the other cheek...

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Whos correct here... Jesus or The OT God?

It's not wrong to be jealous. Is it wrong for a man to be jealous of his fiancee is spending time with other men? If it's wrong, I don't want to be right.

I didn't say "its wrong to be Jealous"... i said God has no reason to be Jealous... this is a human emotion... God is beyond such pettiness

Why would one that loves you and is "commited" to you... choose to do things that would make you Jealous?

Why would said person not trust the one they love either way?

Jealousy is a natural "Human" emotion... God would not be Jealous because everyone returns to him in the end... regardless of which "idol" one chooses to worship...

Oh, you finally want to listen to John? Let's listen to John 1 then

Completely off topic...

This is not a "Jesus was God" discussion... take it elsewhere please... theres plenty of threads for that.

Envy and Jealously are not the same thing. Envy is coveting someone's possessions, Jealousy is the feeling of resentment in relationships, as I described above.

I didn't say they were the same thing...

Because they were worshiping false idols. After he told them this, they said they wanted to worship the LORD, and Joshua told them to throw away their false idols.

That passage says "the lord" will not forigve their sins...

Yet Jesus says the only sin that will not be forgiven is "blasphemy"... And i have a thread comming up about that too... when im inspired to do so that is...

Are you?

Absolutely...

reply to post by Akragon


This verse does not specifically use the word grace as Paul does but I think it speaks of works vs. grace

John 6:28-29 They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to
them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Additionally, I don't think the concept of the doctrine of grace was fully understood until after Jesus died. So it would only follow that the authors of the historical books (the gospels) would not be expounding doctrine but instead giving the account of the good news and the events that took place.

What do you think?

The Bible calls Jesus God.

Isa 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be
called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Acts 20:28
"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church
of God which He purchased with His own blood.

According to this verse the church was purchased with whose blood?

Col 2:8-9
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to
the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and
we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

2 Pet 1:1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the
righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Rev 1:7-8
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth
will mourn over Him. Even so. Amen.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Compare this with Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come
to life,

Heb 1:8
But of the Son He says "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.

Titus 2:13
Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;

reply to post by micmerci

This verse does not specifically use the word grace as Paul does but I think it speaks of works vs. grace

John 6:28-29 They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to
them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

This isn't what i asked for though... I said where does Jesus use the word...

In truth... he doesn't. This doctrine of "grace" is of Paul... not Jesus.

And by the way... verse 63 is the key to that chapter...

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Additionally, I don't think the concept of the doctrine of grace was fully understood until after Jesus died. So it would only follow that the authors of the historical books (the gospels) would not be expounding doctrine but instead giving the account of the good news and the events that took place.

That is because it wasn't taught until after his death...

Paul didn't know Jesus personally... and taught little to nothing of his words.

John speaks of Jesus as "the grace of God"... meaning the ease in which he gave answers... The flawlessness of his words... And selflessness of his actions.

This is completely different then how paul uses the word...

The Bible calls Jesus God.

Jesus does not call himself God... He always refered to one that was "greater" then he...

And again i say... THIS IS NOT A JESUS WAS GOD DISCUSSION... Please take it elsewhere...

This thread brought to mind Gnosticism. Now, if Gnosticism has any truth to it, then the OT God is the bad guy, and Christ came to set the record straight about the "true" God.

The Elohim, I know, only becomes pluralized when used with plural adjectives and verbs, but really - were we just taught that so we would shut up about it?

~ Serra

reply to post by Serraphina

This thread brought to mind Gnosticism. Now, if Gnosticism has any truth to it, then the OT God is the bad guy,

This isn't really about one religion verses the other... almost all religions hold certian "truths" including Gnosticism... as with all religions one must be careful what one believes is true...

and Christ came to set the record straight about the "true" God.

Right...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Serraphina

 

This thread brought to mind Gnosticism. Now, if Gnosticism has any truth to it, then the OT God is the bad guy,

This isn't really about one religion verses the other... almost all religions hold certian "truths" including Gnosticism... as with all religions one must be careful what one believes is true...

and Christ came to set the record straight about the "true" God.

Right...

I didn't say I was Gnostic. In fact, I don't think I've ever conversed with you before. Therefore, you infer too much, in assuming you know anything about my beliefs.

I never said this was about one religion vs. another. I simply noticed that everything in your opening thread (as far as what you are trying to illustrate) has been covered by Gnosticism repeatedly - for centuries.

~ Serra

reply to post by Serraphina

I didn't say I was Gnostic. In fact, I don't think I've ever conversed with you before. Therefore, you infer too much, in assuming you know anything about my beliefs.

I don't see how you came to this conclusion, he posted a generalization, it didn't look personal at all.

Originally posted by Serraphina

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Serraphina

 

This thread brought to mind Gnosticism. Now, if Gnosticism has any truth to it, then the OT God is the bad guy,

This isn't really about one religion verses the other... almost all religions hold certian "truths" including Gnosticism... as with all religions one must be careful what one believes is true...

and Christ came to set the record straight about the "true" God.

Right...

I didn't say I was Gnostic. In fact, I don't think I've ever conversed with you before. Therefore, you infer too much, in assuming you know anything about my beliefs.

I never said this was about one religion vs. another. I simply noticed that everything in your opening thread (as far as what you are trying to illustrate) has been covered by Gnosticism repeatedly - for centuries.

~ Serra

I didn't say you were gnostic... nor do i know or assume i know anything about your beliefs...

Yes, this idea is a gnostic belief... but again this isn't about religion... I would have titled the thread "gnostics vs Christians" or something of the like if this was about religion.

This thread is about the obvious difference between the God of Jesus and the one from the OT... What one man said about God, verses what the old testament says about him...

Originally posted by MissSmartypants
reply to post by Akragon

 

As a Bible believing Christian I too have started to question just who this "God" of the Old Testament is. It never felt right to me even as a little child. And I know my Father/Creator/God loves me and made me the questioning, searching person that I am and certainly understands my concerns about this.

John 5:37-40

37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

The NT hadn't been written yet, only the Torah/Tenach. So the fellow standing there talking with Abraham the day Sodom and Gomorrah disappeared...Getting it yet?

John 5:41-47

41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Torah (Penteteuch). Who did Moses talk to on Mt. Sinai? Who showed Moses his Glory while he was up there? Who walked with Adam in the cool of the day? Who talked with Abraham and who did Sarah laugh at when he told her she would bear a son in her old age?