How did we know...

Originally posted by Varemia

Originally posted by DeadSeraph
So let me get this straight: A piece of paper in someones pocket somehow survived the very fires you claim melted structural steel to initiate a magical collapse of not one but TWO world trade center buildings, yet those fires, damage, and impact weren't enough to destroy Mohammed Attah's passport, which was found completely intact on a New York street?

Convenient indeed.

Why can't anyone ever get this right? Paper survives fiery crashes ALL the time, and the fires NEVER melted the steel. NO ONE but you guys ever claims that the fires melted the steel. There is no evidence that the fires melted the steel. They didn't melt the steel! The word you're looking for is HEATED the steel, weakening it.

If you research any crash, paper often survives the crash, and if you did any research on 9/11, you'd know parts of the plane came out completely unburned and landed on a bank roof. There are pictures of it. There are pictures of paper, insulation and other small debris on the street, where the passport was found.

The only magic is in your head.

First of all, thanks for lumping me in with "you guys". Glad we are now clearly defined.

Secondly, so does steel.

Thanks for your thoughts. I know "You guys" and your tactics as well as you seem to know me, so don't even bother.

Originally posted by DeadSeraph
First of all, thanks for lumping me in with "you guys". Glad we are now clearly defined.

Secondly, so does steel.

Thanks for your thoughts. I know "You guys" and your tactics as well as you seem to know me, so don't even bother.

Well, when you talk like any of the dozens of clones I've seen of your opinions, I begin to lump you all into one big conspiracy believer group. You all believe the same things, and you all have the same empty, lie-filled arguments.

I will equally not bother with you, since you clearly have no actual points to make.

reply to post by Varemia


heated steel BENDS,,, not compressing into itself which is what would have to happen for a building that size to freefall into it's own footprint,,, TWICE !?!

Originally posted by skycowboy
reply to post by Varemia

 

heated steel BENDS,,, not compressing into itself which is what would have to happen for a building that size to freefall into it's own footprint,,, TWICE !?!

3 times, actually.

edit: 3 times in one day.

Originally posted by skycowboy
reply to post by Varemia

 

heated steel BENDS,,, not compressing into itself which is what would have to happen for a building that size to freefall into it's own footprint,,, TWICE !?!

Will heated steel hold up as much weight as was necessary to keep the towers stable? No. It's stupid to think it will remain stable with its load-bearing abilities slashed.

This compressing into itself is just something you're using to sound like you know what you're talking about. I've seen no proof that the behavior of the towers was in any way indicative of solely the behavior of a controlled demolition. Unless, of course, you have similar collapses with buildings of a design like the towers to compare to.

reply to post by skycowboy


I like podcasts....and I came to this site to read the paranormal forums...Yes, please, everyone laugh at me now...but the politics and global meltdown stuff really caught my eye...

Anyways, point is this: I was listening to a podcast, and found info online, about Martin Bormann recently. Assuming you all know who he is, I'll skip to the point. His skull was found 50 years after the end of WWII in Berlin. With red clay in it, which is not found in Berlin. Even more coincidentally, it was found in a part of Berlin where he was alleged to have been killed in 1945 and had been dug up and re-dug up several times in the search for his remains.

Any guesses where the red clay found in his skull came from?

Paraguay.

To me, this stuff about the passport on the sidewalk makes me think of Martin Bormann's skull miraculously being found in Berlin 50 some years later, mulitiple digs later, with South American clay in it.

Originally posted by skycowboy
reply to post by Varemia

 

heated steel BENDS,,, not compressing into itself which is what would have to happen for a building that size to freefall into it's own footprint,,, TWICE !?!

Why would it have to 'compress into itself'? There was an awful lot of empty space in the towers.

To answer the OPs question, there was quite a lot of initial confusion to who the hijackers were. There were a lot of searches done immediately after the attacks and a lot of research into all of the planes passengers. These 19 hijackers had common situations, incriminating evidence and were identified by witnesses in some cases.

Hope that helps.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


oh yea, paper fires,,, I forgot, silly me

Originally posted by BobM88
To me, this stuff about the passport on the sidewalk makes me think of Martin Bormann's skull miraculously being found in Berlin 50 some years later, mulitiple digs later, with South American clay in it.

It's really not that amazingly suspicious a situation. A lot of debris came out of the towers when the plane impacted, and the passport was found by a passer-by who later gave an interview about it. There's plenty of examples of even things like suicide notes written on air sickness bags surviving high speed plane crashes, and obviously 1/10th of a second of a fireball won't set everything on fire.

It's unlikely sure, but unlikely things happen all the time and it just ends up being 'suspicious'. That's pretty much all the response you'll find from the 'truther' side of the debate I'm afraid, just more suspicion.

The FDRs likely stayed in the tower as it collapsed. I don't have to tell you that very little is going to survive that sort of destruction without being destroyed itself.

reply to post by exponent


Thank you very much.

reply to post by Varemia


Answer is No, but the steel columns would BEND and that would throw the structure into the street in the direction of the first members weakened enough. Oh by the way, I'm an Ironworker/Welder. Launch pads and roller coasters

Originally posted by exponent

Originally posted by skycowboy
reply to post by Varemia

 

heated steel BENDS,,, not compressing into itself which is what would have to happen for a building that size to freefall into it's own footprint,,, TWICE !?!

Why would it have to 'compress into itself'? There was an awful lot of empty space in the towers.

To answer the OPs question, there was quite a lot of initial confusion to who the hijackers were. There were a lot of searches done immediately after the attacks and a lot of research into all of the planes passengers. These 19 hijackers had common situations, incriminating evidence and were identified by witnesses in some cases.

Hope that helps.

That is incorrect, if not a lie.

There was no confusion at all. The U.S government had Osama named within the day, and Afghanistan in it's cross hairs as early as the following day.

reply to post by exponent


Yes, I understand, and agree, anything is possible. But... I don't know...what are the odds? You know? Maybe it did just get tossed out of the crash into the street. If I KNEW I'd not be asking questions. Still, the violence of the crashes, you'd think it unlikely, wouldn't you?

Originally posted by skycowboy
reply to post by Varemia

 

Answer is No, but the steel columns would BEND and that would throw the structure into the street in the direction of the first members weakened enough. Oh by the way, I'm an Ironworker/Welder. Launch pads and roller coasters

Since the towers sprayed steel and concrete all over the trade center complex, I think that's what happened to a lot of it. Are you suggesting it was all in the footprint or something? The footprint would have to be two blocks wide if that was case.

Originally posted by BobM88
reply to post by exponent

 

Yes, I understand, and agree, anything is possible. But... I don't know...what are the odds? You know? Maybe it did just get tossed out of the crash into the street. If I KNEW I'd not be asking questions. Still, the violence of the crashes, you'd think it unlikely, wouldn't you?

Here's an example of debris spread over the street from the plane impact. Only the debris still in the tower was burned. Since the fuel did not ignite instantly, a lot found its way outside the tower and survived "intact".



Truthers will tell you that it's a miracle, but they're lying.

Originally posted by DeadSeraph

Originally posted by exponent

Originally posted by skycowboy
reply to post by Varemia

 

heated steel BENDS,,, not compressing into itself which is what would have to happen for a building that size to freefall into it's own footprint,,, TWICE !?!

Why would it have to 'compress into itself'? There was an awful lot of empty space in the towers.

To answer the OPs question, there was quite a lot of initial confusion to who the hijackers were. There were a lot of searches done immediately after the attacks and a lot of research into all of the planes passengers. These 19 hijackers had common situations, incriminating evidence and were identified by witnesses in some cases.

Hope that helps.

That is incorrect, if not a lie.

There was no confusion at all. The U.S government had Osama named within the day, and Afghanistan in it's cross hairs as early as the following day.

OK, thank you....I was starting to think my memory was bad...we knew who to blame by the afternoon of 9/11 right? By Thursday of that week Bush gave a speech to both houses vowing revenge.

reply to post by Varemia


no, if it heated at point of impact, heated THOSE columns, I "think" it would have toppled up there, not collapsing freefall straight down. At least one of them would have toppled over, just my opinion

Originally posted by skycowboy
reply to post by Varemia

 

no, if it heated at point of impact, heated THOSE columns, I "think" it would have toppled up there, not collapsing freefall straight down. At least one of them would have toppled over, just my opinion

What you're saying here doesn't even make sense. The floors don't have enough upward resistance to allow the top to just topple over. The towers were not trees or even conventional steel-framed buildings. They had open-acre floors that had supports only in the center and the exterior walls. There was essentially nothing to resist the upper portion to allow a topple.

reply to post by skycowboy


I know you're not talking to me...but I can see the physics behind the pancake effect, personally. What I question now is the whole story we've been told about the who and why.

reply to post by Varemia


The structure was designed to resist exterior forces, not force from directly above. It was assumed that the structure would remain intact vertically, and damage would come at a face horizontally...that's my understanding, and why I can understand the pancake effect we saw.