Capitalism Is For Dummies.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
We do not live in a capitalist system.

Bailing out a bank or corporation with tax-payer money is not capitalism.

Everyone discussing capitalism is presumably discussing another nation that I am not aware of, because we do not have a capitalist system.

What we do have is under debate, but it seems that by increasing the police state and crushing any form of political protest, our governments are actively working toward fascism.

Capitalism is a game where someone wins and the winner changes the rules of the game and wins more until the winner has all and everyone else is slaves. The free market making things cheaper is just propaganda for us to belive the pyramidsystem is not a pyramidsystem. You can earn a lot of money in the caplitalist system but the better manipulator and backstabber the more money you will win. It is a game. Some times you team upwith others but if you are moral and not backstabbing then you are not understanding the game and will not win as big. The corruption of the poleticians are the winners changing the rule and making sure they never lose but the big mass do. You might not think you are a slave but I know I am in this system. Even in the lower levels the system is to much built up on knowing people and have become a social game where talking about your accomplishments are more important that doing the accomplishment. Being good does not equal promoton or higher salaries.

If this place do not change within 3 years then I will probably one day just leave everything behind and become a monk or something like that so that the parasites who do not really produce anything (poleticians and bankmen, economy people and 1%) will not be able to steal part of my life for their benifit. Because that is what they do. Money=time. Stealing time from you that you would have free if the world was a level playingfield. I do not mind working but I shall have an equal share of what is produced based on effort.

reply to post by apushforenlightment


Nope, that's fascism. You people really don't get this.

Originally posted by Xaphan
Excellent thread. Starred & flagged.

I don't really have anything to say that hasn't already been said. I have been thinking about this for a few years though. Capitalism basically equates to survival of the fittest, but that doesn't mean it's right. Isn't it about time for humanity to grow out of that phase?

tldr; I genuinely believe that greed is a trait exclusive to those who are unevolved and stuck in a primitive mindset.

Survival of the fittest depend on enviroment and what if fit in this system is not good for the whole of humanity. I wonder if we get more great thinkers if humanity suddenly stoped all wars and fear and created a work where all could have at least the basic comfort for their effort on a normal 40h work week. I wonder what would happen if all that effort of research that is put into killing machines was put into medical science, unconditioned education for all and development of science. Just having a television that is not pushing fear all day thru propaganda filled with dualistic views would be nice.

There is a lot of people here who are more than greed and have some of the service to all approach but do not want to be taken advantaged by people who do not have that mindset and will manipulate others for their greed/power/ego. I wonder how long the people of the ego approach would survive if all "the service to all" people suddenly dissapeared. But then no child would never survive if there was not a little service to all approch in their parents. No man is an island. I agree with your idea of primitive mindset. I think that ego over empathy is a mental sickness that is conditioned by society that humanity have not been able to (wanted to) cure.

Originally posted by Germanicus

Bureaucrats tax the heck out of you and tell you what to do under socialism.

You confused me here. You want to be taxed the heck out of?

Originally posted by Mr Headshot
reply to post by apushforenlightment

 

Nope, that's fascism. You people really don't get this.

Stop playing around with sematics and argue the logic instead.
Are not capitalism a competition?
Do not competition have winners?
Do not the winners of capitalism get more money?
Do not the people who have money have an easier time to get more money?
(For instance by renting out appartments. Buying factories. Making money on other peoples labour, Banking)
Is not monopoly the best way to get the most money?
Will it not in the end if given enought time be someone who have enought of the money/power to dissrupt the competion and get create a monopoly on a specific product?
Will this not make the money/power flow to few people quicker?

If this is not a pyramid scheme then I do not know what a pyramid scheme is.

The only way you can be free in a capitalism and have a choice to participate or not is if you are self sufficent and own yourself the land you need to be self sufficent and there is not tax at all. Because the tax is a parasite on the individual that is parasited on by the capitalists that are winning the game.

Also the representatice rebublic, reprasentative democracy, dictatorship, communist states is based on the same pyramid of power as capitalism. The power pyramid of service to self/ego.

The only ideal society that I see is a direct democracy where people make decision at the most local level and all do some work that is needed for the society, decided by the people of that society and with the freedom to go to another place if the rules do not feel right to you. In that case you can get a society where there are local diffrences and people can live as they want (within reason).

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Are not capitalism a competition?

Of course not. Who are you competing against? Your neighbour? Do you feel a need to have a better SUV then them? If so, you need to look in the mirror to find the problem, not at capitalism. Just because the TV tells you you have to have a BMW doesnt mean you have to listen to it. Be an individual who thinks for himself.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
Do not competition have winners?

Again, YOU view life as a contest. Mirror.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
Do not the winners of capitalism get more money?

Not always. For me, hard work made me more money and a better life. I didnt start with much.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
Do not the people who have money have an easier time to get more money?

True. Makes it worthwhile to work hard to get ahead in life, doesnt it?

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
If this is not a pyramid scheme then I do not know what a pyramid scheme is.

Why do you care if Bill Gates has more money than you? Work hard, acheive and life life to its fullest. Being resentful of others gets you no where but bitter.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
The only way you can be free in a capitalism and have a choice to participate or not is if you are self sufficent and own yourself the land you need to be self sufficent and there is not tax at all. Because the tax is a parasite on the individual that is parasited on by the capitalists that are winning the game.

Typical socialist bull. Your taxed much more under socialism. Have to pay for all those parasites who choose not to work!

Originally posted by nightbringrOf course not. Who are you competing against? Your neighbour? Do you feel a need to have a better SUV then them? If so, you need to look in the mirror to find the problem, not at capitalism. Just because the TV tells you you have to have a BMW doesnt mean you have to listen to it. Be an individual who thinks for himself.

Capitalism itself promotes competition. Principles that are present inside of an economic system are always present in the social system. When you are told to compete for a job or resources, you learn to compete in other, social aspects, whether it be with friends, family, or peers.

Typical socialist bull. Your taxed much more under socialism. Have to pay for all those parasites who choose not to work!

Hahaha, yeah, those hypothetical parasites who would purposefully try and make their lives miserable by not doing something that they would enjoy. Lovely

Originally posted by BurntGermanTongue
Capitalism itself promotes competition. Principles that are present inside of an economic system are always present in the social system. When you are told to compete for a job or resources, you learn to compete in other, social aspects, whether it be with friends, family, or peers.

Um, no you dont. I do not feel a need to "one-up" my neighbour like i see so many other people doing. Maybe its ingrained into YOUR nature, but not in mine. What i do, i do for myself, to enjoy my life.

Originally posted by BurntGermanTongue
Hahaha, yeah, those hypothetical parasites who would purposefully try and make their lives miserable by not doing something that they would enjoy. Lovely

Its not purposefully trying to be miserable, i dont believe thats what i was implying. But some people will simply not work no matter what. They know there is a social safety net, and they will not starve.

Originally posted by nightbringrUm, no you dont. I do not feel a need to "one-up" my neighbour like i see so many other people doing. Maybe its ingrained into YOUR nature, but not in mine. What i do, i do for myself, to enjoy my life.

We are not talking about you and me, we are talking about society as a whole. Undoubtedly, compared with previous human eras, there has been alot more economical AND social competition since the rise of capitalism

Its not purposefully trying to be miserable, i dont believe thats what i was implying. But some people will simply not work no matter what. They know there is a social safety net, and they will not starve.

But then, what would they be doing with their lives? There is more to life than not starving, people actually WANT to work, want something to occupy their time. No one wants to sit around and do nothing

First of all, socialism is communism. If you believe differently you are misinformed – Hayek makes a very strong case for this. Forget Freidman - he is lazy when it comes to envisioning an economy without fiat monies, hence his ‘helicopter analogy’, Friedman is Keynesian. Sutton and Rothbard, both eloquently debunk the Fed and explain the ‘money-commodity’ versus the ‘money-power’. Capitalism is not a free market, for two reasons: both fractional reserve banking and governments provide the ‘ladders/platforms’ for a pyramid scheme to develop – ever wonder why the Communist Manifesto calls for the likes of both? Read Modern Money Mechanics, I guarantee it will leave a bad taste in your mouth.

The only valid agreement for socialism is that if for instance; one car is produced and all choice on the part of consumers is forfeited – the vehicle would be more efficient than mass producing customization. ‘More efficient’ is a matter of perception; some will say 100 mpg is efficient, others 1000 mpg. Therefore efficiency is in the eye of the beholder.

Here is the point: We are already a socialist state. Welfare, social security, income tax, endless regulations, forced product placements aka car insurance, these are all socialist, to name a few. Essentially capitalism is a mixing bowl of free market and socialist ideals. BAILOUTS! An economy that supports bailouts can not get anymore socialist.

Originally posted by ConspiracyBuff
First of all, socialism is communism. If you believe differently you are misinformed

Communism is socialism, but not all forms of socialism are communist. The communist movement calls for the establishment of socialism via revolution, which will eventually evolve into "communism."

ever wonder why the Communist Manifesto calls for the likes of both?

I don't ever recall the planned pyramid scheme in the Manifesto, must be this secret international version everyone claims exists.

Here is the point: We are already a socialist state. Welfare, social security, income tax, endless regulations, forced product placements aka car insurance, these are all socialist, to name a few. Essentially capitalism is a mixing bowl of free market and socialist ideals. BAILOUTS! An economy that supports bailouts can not get anymore socialist.

What you are describing is mixed. Bailouts are only mildly socialist. In the socialist economy, goods would be produced for the need of society from the get go, there would be little industry to "bail out" if everything is public funded anyways. You also point to income tax, which is also mixed. Income tax assumes already that distribution is in private hands, since someone is getting more than anyone else. The model for a socialist economy would put distribution in the public's hands in the first place

Originally posted by BurntGermanTongue

Originally posted by nightbringrUm, no you dont. I do not feel a need to "one-up" my neighbour like i see so many other people doing. Maybe its ingrained into YOUR nature, but not in mine. What i do, i do for myself, to enjoy my life.

We are not talking about you and me, we are talking about society as a whole. Undoubtedly, compared with previous human eras, there has been alot more economical AND social competition since the rise of capitalism

Thats because we have more disposable income and gagets to spend it on. How would we stop human desire to grow? I dont think capitalism is to blame. Do people in communist countries not desire things they do not have?

Originally posted by BurntGermanTongue

Its not purposefully trying to be miserable, i dont believe thats what i was implying. But some people will simply not work no matter what. They know there is a social safety net, and they will not starve.

But then, what would they be doing with their lives? There is more to life than not starving, people actually WANT to work, want something to occupy their time. No one wants to sit around and do nothing

You honestly believe that everyone, everywhere wants to work and there are no lazy people in Western society? Man, what utopia do you come from? Dont imagine its my side of the world. A friend of mine who used to work for social services here in Canada would certainly assure me that there are people who would quite happily leech off the welfare system and either work another job under the table or do nothing besides drink and drugs all day.

Don't worry, I'll fix this quote

Originally posted by nightbringrThats because we have more disposable income and gagets to spend it on. How would we stop human desire to grow? I dont think capitalism is to blame. Do people in communist countries not desire things they do not have?

Blaming an entire social scheme on "disposable gadgets" rather than the actual SOCIO economic system (It is called socio economic for a reason)? That's reaching quite a bit, if you ask me, especially since this observable behaviour has existed before the dawn of electronics

Originally posted by BurntGermanTongueYou honestly believe that everyone, everywhere wants to work and there are no lazy people in Western society? Man, what utopia do you come from? Dont imagine its my side of the world.

That is because motivation to do things in Western society is based on either money or individual enjoyment. What happens when you get rid of the need to get money? The motivation to do something would be shifted to what a person wants to do. "But" you say "Everyone in Western society wants to be lazy!" This is not true. When people are motivated solely to do what they want to do, people can pick occupations that fit their nature, wants, and desires. There are alot of people who want to be doctors, scientists, lawyers, etc. but don't want to do it because of the money. Why? Because they are enjoyable occupations

reply to post by BurntGermanTongue


There absolutely is not MORE competition between people. There always has been and always will be. People don't kill each other for a spot at court anymore, people don't marry off their daughters so their family has more money (as often) anymore.

What complete bull.

Originally posted by ColeYounger
Whenever I hear someone decry capitalism and preach out against its evils, I wonder what that person would do if they won the lottery.
I have a hunch their newly acquired millions would probably not be used to build schools, hospitals and homeless shelters..

I've thought about this before. I would buy land right outside of town. I'd build around 5 dwellings that take advantage of passive heating and cooling. I'd make solar powered indoor vertical gardens. I'd run the place mostly on solar and hydrogen. Water might be a problem, but there is reclamation of rainwater. I'd find some families that want to help with the experiment. Since we'd be new to living on a commune, I'd like to find innovative and skilled people so we can work on maximizing efficiency. I'm sure we'd need part time jobs to fill the gaps. If anyone decided to take a vacation longer than a month, they might have to leave. It would depend on how our needs are being met and what leisure time we have available. I also might splurge on something here for the common good.

BTW, I think an important rule for a commune would be, if you've experienced infidelity, either deal with it or get out. We don't have time for someone to be angry with nature.

Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by gentledissident

 

so, the government is going to go into the agriculture business, the energy business, they are gonna buy up all these apartment complexes and run them??

Why would they? That's too much work for a government to maintain those. Apartments are also not very pleasant. They're loud, small, and prone to bugs. They're also not built, for the most part, for efficiency. The government should build grand homes that take advantage of passive solar, heat storage, and geothermal conditioning.

Originally posted by Mr Headshot
reply to post by BurntGermanTongue

 

There absolutely is not MORE competition between people. There always has been and always will be. People don't kill each other for a spot at court anymore, people don't marry off their daughters so their family has more money (as often) anymore.

What complete bull.

Yes, they don't do these things because they have either become wholly socially unacceptable or illegal. I don't think you have a clear view on what "competition" is, to be honest

reply to post by sylvie


ya know all those pros could be turned into cons quite quickly depending on who is running the show, and all those cons could be turned into pros, if the right people were put into power. why do you think that it's so hard to change careers, can you think of any way that they could make it easier, if the wanted to?? so why don't they want to??

ya see what I mean?? same goes for capitalism, the US has always been capitalistic in nature. and we've had so me good times and some bad times, with much of it being directed by the powers that be...

I'm with those who are saying that either system could work great, with the right people in power, but well, as a classmate once said years ago, "There isn't any sane presidents, they were all insane because no one in their right mind would want the job!! ya know here in the US a candidate will spend more money to get the job, than the job pays?? maybe I should say lawfully is paid, it's not counting the bribes and other shady benefits that come with the office. same with climbing the corporate ladder, the sane, moral people just don't want to go through the hassle that comes with it, sorry!! Some of us just don't want to climb if it can only be down by pushing another down and using him as the next stair! and unfortunately, it's those that should be leading they would be more prone to serve the people instead of serving themselves and their friends.
heck, even god based religious movements will start out in the right direction, but once they get big enough to weld some power, they change! the good people, well they are too meek and humble, to want the power to begin with. too kind to stab you in the back for the opportunity to perform your duties and claim you paycheck! too honest to lie and take credit for your work! so the egotistical power hungry back stabbing maniacs are left to rule!!! we should just draft our leaders!

reply to post by gentledissident


lol....I'd go to the foreclosure auctions, buy the foreclosed homes, contact the original owners that lost them and sell the back to them for $200 a month for two years!! use the loss as a writeoff on my taxes if it was possible.

Originally posted by BurntGermanTongue
Don't worry, I'll fix this quote

Originally posted by nightbringrThats because we have more disposable income and gagets to spend it on. How would we stop human desire to grow? I dont think capitalism is to blame. Do people in communist countries not desire things they do not have?

Blaming an entire social scheme on "disposable gadgets" rather than the actual SOCIO economic system (It is called socio economic for a reason)? That's reaching quite a bit, if you ask me, especially since this observable behaviour has existed before the dawn of electronics

And.............which society do you propose we emulate that is free of corruption, greed and the desire for advancement?

Originally posted by BurntGermanTongue

Originally posted by BurntGermanTongueYou honestly believe that everyone, everywhere wants to work and there are no lazy people in Western society? Man, what utopia do you come from? Dont imagine its my side of the world.

That is because motivation to do things in Western society is based on either money or individual enjoyment. What happens when you get rid of the need to get money? The motivation to do something would be shifted to what a person wants to do. "But" you say "Everyone in Western society wants to be lazy!" This is not true. When people are motivated solely to do what they want to do, people can pick occupations that fit their nature, wants, and desires. There are alot of people who want to be doctors, scientists, lawyers, etc. but don't want to do it because of the money. Why? Because they are enjoyable occupations

Not sure i get it.

My motivation is always oriented to "what i want to do". And no, i never once suggested "everyone" wants to be lazy. And no, not everyone should be able to work ANY job they want. Someone with less than average intelligence should NOT be a brain surgeon. They must be able to pass a very hard course. The requirements on such things weeds out the chaff and those incapable. We are not all created equal.

And a doctor is an enjoyable job? You have got to be kidding me! They make incredible money for very good reasons. They must pass many years of schooling and have to put their hands places most people wouldnt touch. You think your job is stressful? Just wait until peoples lives depend upon your decision. Your a bit out of touch with reality i think.

And some people are motivated to do what they want. And that is to sit on their asses collecting welfare, drinking or doing criminal activities. I know you think capitalism breeds corruption and laziness, but i suggest that there have always, always been criminals and those who would rather cheat, lie and steal than work for a living. Books from thousands of years ago on up through the ages can verify this. These countries werent all capitalist.