Capitalism Is For Dummies.

This is one of my ideas for a Public Works project. It may have some flaws but I think the basic idea is pretty sound.

Solar power seems like its anywhere from $15000 to $30000 to convert your home. If the government was doing these things for cost im sure we could get the cost down under $10000 easily. Now if every Home Owner is a customer you can get the cost down again through sheer volume.Now the cost to covert is under $5000. The American Government gives 'no interest' $5000 loans to every Home Owner to convert to solar. The loans are paid back through money saved on electricity over a 3 year period. That way, the cost to taxpayer is nil. The Home Owner pays about $100 dollars a month for energy for three years then is off the grid. Win win for everyone that isnt an energy company or a government wanting tax revenue.

A socialist government would consider doing something like this. A capitalist government prefers to sell us out to corporatists and tax us both. A good Public Works project improves the community for us all by meeting needs. Capitalism increasingly looks to profit from basic need. A capitalist government is removing business opportunities if they fund a successful Public Works project that provides the community with cheap energy for example. See the flaw with capitalism? It holds us back.

When 'consumer confidence' is of such great importance to our future you have to question society. Does the private sector really push technology? People will tell you that the private sector is responsible for advancements in technology and they will point to private investment and the stock exchange. What they leave out is that our taxpayer money funds most important research through grants to independant researchers and to universities and corporations.

The private sector is almost always propped up by our tax dollars. They take our tax dollars and use them to discover more ways to profit from us. Welfare for the private sector is a blatant waste of taxpayer money. Capitalism is a slippery slope. Trying to manipulate markets like the push to clean energy by handing out taxpayer money to corporations like solyndra is crony/state capitalism. The capitalist mentality is to assume that only business can move us forward. The problem with that is that the 'clean energy' corporations are corporations just like anyone else selling energy. Clean energy corporations want to make as much profit from us as possible. Even if we did all move to solar we would not be better off. Why isnt energy getting cheaper? Its 2012. I dont want to see ads for ceiling fans telling me I will save money on electricity. Reducing standard of living and increasing the cost of living is not a solution. Capitalism is holding us back. Capitalism takes advantage of us and keeps things in place so that we are beholden. Socialism does not look to profit from us. Socialism looks to facilitate an environment where we all prosper.

People tell you that socialism is 6 hours of forced labour a day. They say you will be sent to the gulags. People talk about socialism like it will result in State Television and an uneducated society. ( starting to sound like capitalism ) People will say that we will get a society with huge wealth disparity. Like Fidel is up in his Palace counting cash while you drink government milk inside your small,one room concrete residence. Thats the funniest,when capitalists call wage disparity

Socialism could put a focus on technology. Socialism could put a focus on improving our overall standard of living. Socialism would encourage an efficient an resourceful society that has direction. Capitalism has no direction. Capitalism is waste. Capitalism is happy to go backward if there is a profit involved. 3D anyone? Capitalism has no plan. A society as advanced as ours should not have poverty and famine. A society as advanced as ours should not be contemplating a GFC or a food shortage. Our govenments should not have debt.

A system that relies on exploiting peoples basic needs for no good reason is flawed. We can do better. We need direction. A collective direction and real goals for society. We need to focus on genuine gains for society. It is clear that western governments are wasting our money. Capitalism wants to exploit you. Capitalist governments want to exploit you. Capitalist governments do exploit you. It is against the spirit of capitalism for a capitalist government to meet your needs. A capitalist government is not interested in Public Works projects that will offer geniune benifits and solutions. Capitalism holds us back. Capitalism is for dummies. Socialism is what can help us advance.

reply to post by Germanicus


Capitalism is in direct opposition to democracy. Democracy tries to create a level playing field and make us all equal under the law. Capitalism creates division and grants special advantages to those who have the money.

We can do better but not sure what the solution is. People are so caught up in the promises of capitalism (greed and materialism) that they wont want to live a simpler life based on the sharing of resources.

We may be doomed.

reply to post by Mike.Ockizard

We can do better but not sure what the solution is. People are so caught up in the promises of capitalism (greed and materialism) that they wont want to live a simpler life based on the sharing of resources. We may be doomed.

We need a resource based society for sure hey.

Profit from basic needs is wrong.

Economy should be secondary.

Originally posted by Germanicus
This is one of my ideas for a Public Works project. It may have some flaws but I think the basic idea is pretty sound.

Solar power seems like its anywhere from $15000 to $30000 to convert your home. If the government was doing these things for cost im sure we could get the cost down under $10000 easily. Now if every Home Owner is a customer you can get the cost down again through sheer volume.Now the cost to covert is under $5000. The American Government gives 'no interest' $5000 loans to every Home Owner to convert to solar. The loans are paid back through money saved on electricity over a 3 year period. That way, the cost to taxpayer is nil. The Home Owner pays about $100 dollars a month for energy for three years then is off the grid. Win win for everyone that isnt an energy company or a government wanting tax revenue.

You cant produce enough solar panels to make a house self sufficient with $5000. Houses don't use that much power anyways, its the businesses that really use the most. It is a concern how much power is wasted though, people are so lazy they can't turn off a tv they aren't watching or close windows when the air con is in use. The biggest problem with panels is that they generate power in the day but cannot keep up with peak demand in the evening. Solar power is a good alternative but not a primary source of power. Thorium reactors or other types of renewable energy are better solutions than coal.

All your blah, blah, blah can be simplified into one basic concept.

Do you want freedom, or do you want bureaucrats forcing you, by gunpoint, to do what they think is "best for the greater good?"

It's not about capitalism vs. socialism. It's about freedom vs. tyranny.

And yes, people with more money have an advantage because they can choose what to do with their money. That's not an inequity.

An inequity would be taking money from somebody who has contributed more and giving it to somebody who has contributed less. That's not fairness. That's unfairness.

Originally posted by UltimateSkeptic1
All your blah, blah, blah can be simplified into one basic concept.

Do you want freedom, or do you want bureaucrats forcing you, by gunpoint, to do what they think is "best for the greater good?"

It's not about capitalism vs. socialism. It's about freedom vs. tyranny.

And yes, people with more money have an advantage because they can choose what to do with their money. That's not an inequity.

An inequity would be taking money from somebody who has contributed more and giving it to somebody who has contributed less. That's not fairness. That's unfairness.

In Fuedal Japan the merchant call was at the bottom of society. Why? Becuae they produced nothing of real value. Merchants are parasites. I guess you think these people are 'job creators'? And the japanese had actors and bards below even the merchants. I guess you think 50 Cents is contributing to society? The japanese were not socialists but they knew like socialists do that generating wealth is not always contributing to society. The mega rich that you worship are putting a strain on society. Unless you are a Banker or a Corporatist,you are a worker. Socialism is about rewarding those of us that contribute and about realistic rewards. The golden handshakes and insane bonus' that are handed out to CEO's are demonic. Capitalism has gone mad. Its about time people like you understood that you are a worker. You are not a capitalist. Socialists are not going to steal your pot of gold.

I think you have trouble with the word inequity. Wage disparity will be addressed under socialism.

Bureaucrats tax the heck out of you and tell you what to do under socialism.

Capitalism is far from fair. It is demonic.

Freedom does not equat to unbridled greed and apathy.

Originally posted by Germanicus

Originally posted by UltimateSkeptic1
All your blah, blah, blah can be simplified into one basic concept.

Do you want freedom, or do you want bureaucrats forcing you, by gunpoint, to do what they think is "best for the greater good?"

It's not about capitalism vs. socialism. It's about freedom vs. tyranny.

And yes, people with more money have an advantage because they can choose what to do with their money. That's not an inequity.

An inequity would be taking money from somebody who has contributed more and giving it to somebody who has contributed less. That's not fairness. That's unfairness.

In Fuedal Japan the merchant call was at the bottom of society. Why? Becuae they produced nothing of real value. Merchants are parasites. I guess you think these people are 'job creators'? And the japanese had actors and bards below even the merchants. I guess you think 50 Cents is contributing to society? The japanese were not socialists but they knew like socialists do that generating wealth is not always contributing to society. The mega rich that you worship are putting a strain on society. Unless you are a Banker or a Corporatist,you are a worker. Socialism is about rewarding those of us that contribute and about realistic rewards. The golden handshakes and insane bonus' that are handed out to CEO's are demonic. Capitalism has gone mad. Its about time people like you understood that you are a worker. You are not a capitalist. Socialists are not going to steal your pot of gold.

I think you have trouble with the word inequity. Wage disparity will be addressed under socialism.

Bureaucrats tax the heck out of you and tell you what to do under socialism.

Capitalism is far from fair. It is demonic.

Freedom does not equat to unbridled greed and apathy.

That is true, no one can argue that the massive paychecks awarded to CEO's are deserved. In my management class we were taught that this is to keep people hungry to move up the chain. The thing is if there was more care shown for the lower workers they wouldn't all be trying to suck up and get promotions. It's such a sad sight when you see the figures of a bank and how much money they made when each year so many people lose their homes. A more socialist approach could work but there would be fears that it would create a lazy/unmotivated workforce. That is why capitalism is successful.

Originally posted by Germanicus I guess you think 50 Cents is contributing to society? The japanese were not socialists but they knew like socialists do that generating wealth is not always contributing to society. The mega rich that you worship are putting a strain on society. Unless you are a Banker or a Corporatist,you are a worker. Socialism is about rewarding those of us that contribute and about realistic rewards. The golden handshakes and insane bonus' that are handed out to CEO's are demonic. Capitalism has gone mad. Its about time people like you understood that you are a worker. You are not a capitalist. Socialists are not going to steal your pot of gold.

I think you have trouble with the word inequity. Wage disparity will be addressed under socialism.

Bureaucrats tax the heck out of you and tell you what to do under socialism.

Capitalism is far from fair. It is demonic.

Freedom does not equat to unbridled greed and apathy.

Point 1: Who are you to judge whether 50 Cents (sic) is contributing to society? Socialism, and the very title of this thread, is born of arrogance. Like I said, it's based on a flawed premise that those who "know better" can use force to coerce people into doing things they don't want to do.

Point 2: Yes, freedom does equate to unbridled greed and apathy. So what? Greed and apathy are emotions. Are you saying the government's role is to be so intrusive as to "correct" people's emotions? Seriously?

And what about your emotions? Are you the only person on the planet whose every emotion is justified?

reply to post by UltimateSkeptic1

Point 1: Who are you to judge whether 50 Cents (sic) is contributing to society?

Its ya birthday What would we do without fiddy?

You know what capitalism appeals to? Selfish people. We all know in the west that we are living at the expense of third world countries and at the expense of our children. Some of us just dont like to hear it.

And my emotions dont matter. The common good matters. Socialism is about caring about others. Socialism is also about constructing a society where poverty is impossible. We all have value.

edit- not that Im saying you are selfish. But society in general is selfish under capitalism in my opinion.

Originally posted by BigBruddah

That is true, no one can argue that the massive paychecks awarded to CEO's are deserved. In my management class we were taught that this is to keep people hungry to move up the chain.

Yes, I will argue that the massive corporate paychecks awarded are deserved.

The owners of the corporations, with their free will, pay CEOs to run their organizations. What's the alternative? A bureaucrat choosing the CEO of a private company?

Let's ask another question:

Do we "deserve" to use the internet or a cell phone? Why? What did we do to deserve it?

Like I said, it's not socialism vs. capitalism, it's a question of freedom vs. tyranny.

Truth be told, I think it's more a matter of jealousy and envy, with a good dose of entitlement thrown in.

Originally posted by BigBruddah

Originally posted by Germanicus

Originally posted by UltimateSkeptic1
All your blah, blah, blah can be simplified into one basic concept.

Do you want freedom, or do you want bureaucrats forcing you, by gunpoint, to do what they think is "best for the greater good?"

It's not about capitalism vs. socialism. It's about freedom vs. tyranny.

And yes, people with more money have an advantage because they can choose what to do with their money. That's not an inequity.

An inequity would be taking money from somebody who has contributed more and giving it to somebody who has contributed less. That's not fairness. That's unfairness.

In Fuedal Japan the merchant call was at the bottom of society. Why? Becuae they produced nothing of real value. Merchants are parasites. I guess you think these people are 'job creators'? And the japanese had actors and bards below even the merchants. I guess you think 50 Cents is contributing to society? The japanese were not socialists but they knew like socialists do that generating wealth is not always contributing to society. The mega rich that you worship are putting a strain on society. Unless you are a Banker or a Corporatist,you are a worker. Socialism is about rewarding those of us that contribute and about realistic rewards. The golden handshakes and insane bonus' that are handed out to CEO's are demonic. Capitalism has gone mad. Its about time people like you understood that you are a worker. You are not a capitalist. Socialists are not going to steal your pot of gold.

I think you have trouble with the word inequity. Wage disparity will be addressed under socialism.

Bureaucrats tax the heck out of you and tell you what to do under socialism.

Capitalism is far from fair. It is demonic.

Freedom does not equat to unbridled greed and apathy.

That is true, no one can argue that the massive paychecks awarded to CEO's are deserved. In my management class we were taught that this is to keep people hungry to move up the chain. The thing is if there was more care shown for the lower workers they wouldn't all be trying to suck up and get promotions. It's such a sad sight when you see the figures of a bank and how much money they made when each year so many people lose their homes. A more socialist approach could work but there would be fears that it would create a lazy/unmotivated workforce. That is why capitalism is successful.

Yeah,I agree with what you are saying. I think it is linked to the upward mobility con.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Finding the right balance through all the competing forces, intrests and ideologies is very much key. It is the role of government to manage society, which is the main tenant of socialism in providing a cohesive and workable plan for social order. The market forces of capatlism manage the supply and demand of resources amongst the self determination of the peoples. There are many conflicts of intrest that can and have arisen bewteen the two, how this conflict is approached and managed is at the crux of much of the current social disorder.

well i have to agree and disagree, yes the government loan plan is a good idea that i guess would fall under socialism but i believe it should be private individuals budding these enterprises not governments, we havent reached the point where civil government can be efficient enough to handle every single asset of our lives. three companies manufacturing solar panels, different chain banks offer the same loan at no interest at behest of congress to citizens, the u.s. government along with the major panel manufacturers agree to a law where only energy companies may purchase panels and install and maintain them for homes and businesses. energy companies switch over to maintain renewable energy grids and fund other sources as well to deposit into the overall grid instead of their current role of power management and charge small fee's for the use of the grid to commercial businesses.As well as the department of energy setting a mandate stating only one energy company may operate within a county at said time, in cases of very populous counties dual contracts can be devised. boom, citizens get their pie, capitalism is still in effect. although not perfect, just an attempted example of mixed government.

Originally posted by BigBruddah

Originally posted by Germanicus
This is one of my ideas for a Public Works project. It may have some flaws but I think the basic idea is pretty sound.

Solar power seems like its anywhere from $15000 to $30000 to convert your home. If the government was doing these things for cost im sure we could get the cost down under $10000 easily. Now if every Home Owner is a customer you can get the cost down again through sheer volume.Now the cost to covert is under $5000. The American Government gives 'no interest' $5000 loans to every Home Owner to convert to solar. The loans are paid back through money saved on electricity over a 3 year period. That way, the cost to taxpayer is nil. The Home Owner pays about $100 dollars a month for energy for three years then is off the grid. Win win for everyone that isnt an energy company or a government wanting tax revenue.

You cant produce enough solar panels to make a house self sufficient with $5000. Houses don't use that much power anyways, its the businesses that really use the most. It is a concern how much power is wasted though, people are so lazy they can't turn off a tv they aren't watching or close windows when the air con is in use. The biggest problem with panels is that they generate power in the day but cannot keep up with peak demand in the evening. Solar power is a good alternative but not a primary source of power. Thorium reactors or other types of renewable energy are better solutions than coal.

I do not think we should be worried about our 'footprint'. Global warming is not fact. Even if it was fact we need to make a transition. We should also be looking at cheap abundant energy. Its 2012.

And I know people that have gone to solar for $15000. If we remove profit and use the most effecient practices I know we can slash the cost. We went to the moon. We can go to solar. Going to the moon did little. Going to solar could do alot if profit was not a concern.

Originally posted by UltimateSkeptic1

Originally posted by BigBruddah

That is true, no one can argue that the massive paychecks awarded to CEO's are deserved. In my management class we were taught that this is to keep people hungry to move up the chain.

Yes, I will argue that the massive corporate paychecks awarded are deserved.

The owners of the corporations, with their free will, pay CEOs to run their organizations. What's the alternative? A bureaucrat choosing the CEO of a private company?

Let's ask another question:

Do we "deserve" to use the internet or a cell phone? Why? What did we do to deserve it?

Like I said, it's not socialism vs. capitalism, it's a question of freedom vs. tyranny.

Truth be told, I think it's more a matter of jealousy and envy, with a good dose of entitlement thrown in.

At what cost? If a capitalist society was as strong as its weakest member it would be defunct. Its a dog eat dog way of life. If you are for few wealthy and powerful people ruling a weak mass then that's your choice. While no one is going to turn down a multi-million pay packet I have to question why it came to that in the first place. This all comes back to keeping the poor down while the rich get richer. I think what Germanicus is trying to say is that rather than trying to get wealth we should be improving our societies as a whole.

Originally posted by Germanicus

Originally posted by BigBruddah

Originally posted by Germanicus
This is one of my ideas for a Public Works project. It may have some flaws but I think the basic idea is pretty sound.

Solar power seems like its anywhere from $15000 to $30000 to convert your home. If the government was doing these things for cost im sure we could get the cost down under $10000 easily. Now if every Home Owner is a customer you can get the cost down again through sheer volume.Now the cost to covert is under $5000. The American Government gives 'no interest' $5000 loans to every Home Owner to convert to solar. The loans are paid back through money saved on electricity over a 3 year period. That way, the cost to taxpayer is nil. The Home Owner pays about $100 dollars a month for energy for three years then is off the grid. Win win for everyone that isnt an energy company or a government wanting tax revenue.

You cant produce enough solar panels to make a house self sufficient with $5000. Houses don't use that much power anyways, its the businesses that really use the most. It is a concern how much power is wasted though, people are so lazy they can't turn off a tv they aren't watching or close windows when the air con is in use. The biggest problem with panels is that they generate power in the day but cannot keep up with peak demand in the evening. Solar power is a good alternative but not a primary source of power. Thorium reactors or other types of renewable energy are better solutions than coal.

I do not think we should be worried about our 'footprint'. Global warming is not fact. Even if it was fact we need to make a transition. We should also be looking at cheap abundant energy. Its 2012.

And I know people that have gone to solar for $15000. If we remove profit and use the most effecient practices I know we can slash the cost. We went to the moon. We can go to solar. Going to the moon did little. Going to solar could do alot if profit was not a concern.

I meant if solar was actually going to become the primary source, we'd need to cut back use to enable it to match the demand. I think installing solar power in most homes is better than wasting it on any of the meaningless alternatives our leaders constantly waste money on. Another problem would be an economic hit with all the jobs lost from the coal/power sector as solar energy needs a lot less workers to run.

reply to post by kwakakev


Thats well put. And I agree.
I think the the middle ground is closer than we think.

A happy medium shouldnt be that hard hey.

I think basic needs are the big thing. Capitalism could go nuts if there was no person starving. And charity is no solution. Fixing poverty and famine is possible but not profitable. Micro farming and simple solutions can fix things. Capitalist charity is bs for the most part and simply perpetuates the problems.

Capitalism worked here for 150 years. Now its not. In my opinion , capitalism is a huge Ponzi scheme. Once it works it way through the economy, you have the one percenters and even the .01% of that 1 percent sitting on a huge amount of wealth. Like the OP stated, why do anything unless theres a profit behind it. Its complete nonsense and most of the people that control this absurdly out of proportion piece of the pie care about nothing more then making that piece of pie bigger. We are at a "critical mass" in terms of our economy and our ability to govern ourselves. 2012 is a cluster[snip] and its all because we let it happen. Each day that goes by, they get stronger. Please consider your children's future. The window for opportunity in the United States will be shut in less then 20 years. The time for action is now!!!

This is how I see it:

Capitalism and corporate profit are driving us away from self sustainability. We are being stripped of our ability to grow our own food, educate ourselves, and provide for own well being through regulation, laws, and advertising influence that are all designed to limit our choices, and increase the profit of the corporations helping to fund the passing of these laws and regulations.

The only ones that "profit" from that are the lawmakers being paid by the corporations to limit our abilities to provide for ourselves and the people that are willing to lay down and pay the corporate master their fee for compliance.

Capitalism is driving us towards a tyranny of corporate dependence, and not away from it, as some people seem to think.

How does that equate to freedom?

reply to post by BigBruddah


I agre. The lost jobs are what keeps many industries alive when they should die. The Romans had steam power but didnt use it because it would have destroyed the slave industry. Its pretty dumb hey. Profits also keep things going like oil. The oil industry does alot to stop anything that would hit their profits.

And yeah,I think solar could at least provide the bulk or good chunk of domestic power. But we can sure do better as far as providing cheap energy for the people.