This is a Sexist Thread! (Men's Rights)

reply to post by IpsissimusMagus


I honestly have to say, while you need to learn the T&C and learn to skate those rules a bit better, I have found these last couple posts of yours to be very good, well thought out and spoken. You sir, are a good contributor to ATS... and I am certain will only get better in time.

(Negative campaigning notwithstanding )

reply to post by Furbs


Earlier in this thread I posted about the observations I and others, including teachers and educators have made about the differences between the sexes with children...how they learn, and the toys they are attracted to.

" The store had a large play area for the kids to play, and pretty much samples of most toys available to touch, very kid friendly, and there was just no denying that boys and girls were "attracted" to different types of toys, LOL, the dolls for boys were a big "loser", although boys did seem to enjoy stuffed animals, especially if associated with a character in a book. Many teacher's that became friends as well as customers, consistenly said boys and girls learn differently, and one of thier challenges was to accomodate both sexes 'needs". The fact that so many little boys are being "sedated" to cope with school tells me that thier needs are not being met, as well as little girls. If I had been blessed with a son, I would say "HELL NO" to ever drugging him so he would be "good" in school...very complicated and sad issue."

What are your thoughts on why young children, with very limited exposure to MSM, would be so much different as a general rule? Yes, of course you always have kids that "bend" the norm....but overall little boys and little girls seem to be "wired" differently.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Furbs

You seem to be confused.

Yeah. Gender confusion has never been one of my hallmarks.

Gender expressions are quite real, but they are merely social constructs, and to claim they originate in biological differences is to take a position based in ignorance. People continue to make the claim, but no one is able to add anything substantive to the argument in that regard.

Life must be very interesting around your house, what with everyone having the same estrogen and testosterone levels as everyone else then. It must be that way, otherwise, gender would have a biological basis.

They're REAL different around my house - but that keeps things interesting, too!

If, like you are claiming, gender had a biological origin, then why do gender differences manifest in vastly different ways depending on what culture you are from? If it were a biological function, males humans and female humans would act within the same predetermined gender roles.

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
reply to post by Furbs

 

Earlier in this thread I posted about the observations I and others, including teachers and educators have made about the differences between the sexes with children...how they learn, and the toys they are attracted to.

" The store had a large play area for the kids to play, and pretty much samples of most toys available to touch, very kid friendly, and there was just no denying that boys and girls were "attracted" to different types of toys, LOL, the dolls for boys were a big "loser", although boys did seem to enjoy stuffed animals, especially if associated with a character in a book. Many teacher's that became friends as well as customers, consistenly said boys and girls learn differently, and one of thier challenges was to accomodate both sexes 'needs". The fact that so many little boys are being "sedated" to cope with school tells me that thier needs are not being met, as well as little girls. If I had been blessed with a son, I would say "HELL NO" to ever drugging him so he would be "good" in school...very complicated and sad issue."

What are your thoughts on why young children, with very limited exposure to MSM, would be so much different as a general rule? Yes, of course you always have kids that "bend" the norm....but overall little boys and little girls seem to be "wired" differently.

edit on 19-6-2012 by MountainLaurel because: (no reason given)

Gender training, pure and simple.

Boys and girls are treated differently directly out of the womb, and it is more than just "Pink room vs Blue room". Boys are routinely instructed not to cry and to bury their emotions from a young age while girls are encouraged to cry it out and share their emotions. If this is the unpinning for how a person behaves, repressed vs. emotionally open, of course these children are going to learn differently.

There are cultures the do not even assign gender roles to prepubescent children, and all of them behave more or less exactly the same, save for individual differences.

reply to post by Furbs


Well, any sensible person couldn't discount that gender training plays a role, and that varies in different cultures.

I shared that the biggest example I personally wittnessed was with my niece and nephew, who were raised with parents who made a point to not raise thier kids in gender specific roles, and gave them both the same types of toys, they were both comforted when they cried, and encouraged to communicate thier feelings.

Many of the kids I observed in the toy store also had parents with that same type of parenting style, that's why they were shopping in an Educational Toy Store....lol...it was the "Free to be you and me" crowd.

At the end of the day....The kids just seemed to show big differences in what thier "interests" and aptitudes were and they tended to be "drawn" toward activities that were typically gender specific. Our family came to the conclusion that "nature" could only be influenced by "nuture" to a point...and exposing kids to wide variety interesting things, encouraging them find "thier" thing...and respect themselves and others was the way to go.

Originally posted by Furbs

If, like you are claiming, gender had a biological origin, then why do gender differences manifest in vastly different ways depending on what culture you are from? If it were a biological function, males humans and female humans would act within the same predetermined gender roles.

I guess I'm going to need some examples of the cultures to which you are referring, and the differences in gender manifestation you are alleging, before I can suss out just what it is you're trying to say - or what an answer might be.

Are you saying that you don't believe men and women have different average estrogen/testosterone levels?

Or possibly that estrogen and testosterone are not biological?

Or perhaps you think they have no effect, and are just there for no reason at all?

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Furbs

If, like you are claiming, gender had a biological origin, then why do gender differences manifest in vastly different ways depending on what culture you are from? If it were a biological function, males humans and female humans would act within the same predetermined gender roles.

I guess I'm going to need some examples of the cultures to which you are referring, and the differences in gender manifestation you are alleging, before I can suss out just what it is you're trying to say - or what an answer might be.

Are you saying that you don't believe men and women have different average estrogen/testosterone levels?

Or possibly that estrogen and testosterone are not biological?

Or perhaps you think they have no effect, and are just there for no reason at all?

Here is a link to some studies that have gone on in Africa. There is a wealth of information contained within, as African sexual and gender roles have been studied for quite a few decades. You will notice trends in the research indicating that the sections of tribes that do not raise their children with preassigned gender roles still have children that act out sexually against the other sex, but do so in regards to sex-play, not socio-hieracrhial gender roles as children raised with premeditated gender training, like much of the rest of the world.

www2.hu-berlin.de...

To answer the second part of your question in regards to androgens..

They do nothing to elicit gender conditioning, their focus is sexual activity. Androgens do have psychological effects on humans, most famously in the studies that conclude that people with high testosterone levels are more likely to cheat on mates than those without high testosterone levels.

Like I said before, if, for instance, Testosterone had a biological influence on what it means to be a male gendered person, all male gendered people would have the same ideals for what it meant to be a male gendered person, regardless of the culture. Our cognitions allow us to explore more advanced social structures that other mammals do not have. For instance, all male pigs act in ways similar to each other regardless of what part of the world they live in. They do not have socially dependent gender, they react solely to their androgrens.

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
reply to post by Furbs

 

Well, any sensible person couldn't discount that gender training plays a role, and that varies in different cultures.

I shared that the biggest example I personally wittnessed was with my niece and nephew, who were raised with parents who made a point to not raise thier kids in gender specific roles, and gave them both the same types of toys, they were both comforted when they cried, and encouraged to communicate thier feelings.

Many of the kids I observed in the toy store also had parents with that same type of parenting style, that's why they were shopping in an Educational Toy Store....lol...it was the "Free to be you and me" crowd.

At the end of the day....The kids just seemed to show big differences in what thier "interests" and aptitudes were and they tended to be "drawn" toward activities that were typically gender specific. Our family came to the conclusion that "nature" could only be influenced by "nuture" to a point...and exposing kids to wide variety interesting things, encouraging them find "thier" thing...and respect themselves and others was the way to go.

Your anecdotes are your own experiences, they do not mirror peer reviewed experiments.

Here is but a single article illustrating the effect I am referring to.

psycnet.apa.org.../0033-295X.106.4.676

They never want to do the hard, icky jobs.

They take more time off work due to personal issues...

They want to have higher positions but want all this time off.

I am the small percentage that receives child support and was rewarded custody. After giving her one year extension for the case, giving her rides to court, making payment plans for child support, never jailing her, rescheduling court cases for her, and harassing me for two years I finally was rewarded custody. Than a year later finally got a "fair" child support claim, instead of $95 my son would receive $232.

She was given free medical, free rides, free psych evals, free room and meals, the whole shebang. I got my son. I win.

reply to post by Daughter2


That's because heart disease isn't only subject to a majority population. Breast cancer is primarily a female problem while prostate cancer is primarily a male problem.

While women slowly move up in the game of rights men are still the dominant species on earth -no offense intended. This is fact. I believe men are still considered to be dominant and that females are still being subjected to forms of discrimination. Obviously nowadays, it is less extreme than it used to be, with voting opened up to women. Also women in the work force has become a lot more normal since 1950's. Women in this day had house duties and this was considered ''mainstream''. However I believe the economy has changed this greatly. The economic stress has started the trend of both genders in the workforce, which I believe is a very good thing.

While men have perks and females have perks that relate to their gender I believe both are entitled to equal rights.

One point I am extremely against is the fact that men don't have a say in the future of their unborn baby. Even though without the male, the baby wouldn't exist.

The day when there will be equal rights for men and women is the day that men will make females a sandwich, or females will out number the amount of men in the police force, fire service, military services or political services.

Remember equal rights isn't about both sexes having the same rules to follow. Its about men and woman following the rules suited to their needs, with in reason.

I hope this hasn't been mentioned before, but has anyone noticed that in almost every commercial which features a man and a woman, or husband and wife, it's always the man that looks stupid and the woman who gets to be the normal one? This is totally unfair and unrealistic. Talk about discrimination....

I've noticed this discrimination since the 1970's and have been actively trying to point it out. When in high school and a girl got to read the King's part in a Shakespeare play for English class, you know who was right there championing the rights for men's equality the very next day. Yes, me. I asked for and got to read the Queen's lines that next day.

reply to post by TrulyColorBlind





Maybe unrealistic...But fair

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by TrulyColorBlind

 

Maybe unrealistic...But fair

The unrealistic depiction of men in media isn't funny nor fair to anyone, male or female. We went from "Father knows Best" to "Father is an idiot" in only a few decades, and it has little to nothing to do with Feminism, as early incarnations of this trend appear before the bra burnings of the 70s even became an issue.

I agree with the poster TrulyColorBlind, that this sort of depiction of men as people needing to be cared for because they can't be trusted to be along because of some sort of stupidity or ineptitude is detrimental to society as a whole, however, it is something that women deal with as well, though the sexism of advertising toward women is that vaginas are smelly, dirty and need to be sprayed with perfume so they can function in normal society, and that women are weak and need help being strong enough to take care of their 'daily needs' whether that be cooking, laundry, or cleaning.

The best thing to do when you see ads (or anything for that matter) that piss you off is to contact, the ad agency, the product being advertized, and the program you are watching and discuss your concerns. When enough people do the same, things change, as evidenced by a significant lack of Glenn Beck on television.

reply to post by Furbs




This whole thread 41 pages and 800 plus posts is subjective as people (men and women)

tend to see problems and make judgements from their own perspectives.

No one ever said life was fair!

Life is never going to be equal or fair for everyone all of the time!

Theres never going to be a system that is fair to every one !

To quote Bill Gates

"Lifes NOT fair get used to it!"

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by Furbs

 

This whole thread 41 pages and 800 plus posts is subjective as people (men and women)

tend to see problems and make judgements from their own perspectives.

No one ever said life was fair!

Life is never going to be equal or fair for everyone all of the time!

Theres never going to be a system that is fair to every one !

To quote Bill Gates

"Lifes NOT fair get used to it!"

Yeah, Bill Gates is a good person to talk about life not being fair. I feel his pain. Everyone should just shut up, right Bill?

Actually, you are the one that brought fairness into my response, considering you said it was fair. Not sure what you are getting at now, as you seem to be having some cognitive dissonance.

reply to post by Furbs




Yes your right ...and 'fairness' has played a big part in my personal life...never equality

because for many various reasons, and too many explanations there can never be equality!

Fairness can be executed where one is in control of a situation, and can dispense fairness

...But as no one has control on what 'life dishes out' i think it's OK to say "lifes not fair"

because it isn't...But

Theres another side to that particular coin, perhaps its a 'kick in the pants' from life to

make you dig your heels in and achieve something? where you wouldn't have made

the effort had it been 'fair'



By some way of explanation when two of my daughters, while growing up, were punished

one was grounded and the other deprived of their pocket money. The one that was

grounded came to me and asked "why she was grounded when i could have stopped her

pocket money like her sister?"...My answer to her was that she was being punished and was

therefor being deprived of what was most important to 'her' and as punishment was supposed

to hurt there was no point in stopping her pocket money to which she was some what

indifferent

Not equal but fair?...as they were each deprived of what was most important to them!

reply to post by eletheia


I'm not really sure what your point is though.

Are you claiming that sexist depictions of men on television are fair because unequal but fair sexist depictions of women happen on television, and instead of striving to change it, we should simply accept it because life isn't fair?

reply to post by Furbs





Don't watch much TV so i can't answer your question on sexist depictions also i don't

think the UK get the same TV progrommes as the US anyway.

I myself wouldn't waste my life trying to change minor things - there as many stupid,

comical, (insert any adjective you like) Men as women in the world you can't change

them all!!


One man's mirth is another man's discomfort - youre never going to please all of the

people all of the time so my advice is to 'lighten up' move along on and sometimes even

laugh a little at oneself!


I think this thread has run it's course - i'm moving on now so see you around and just

so you know a fair %age of your stars on this thread came from me so i don't really

have much to argue with you about!!

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by Furbs

 

Don't watch much TV so i can't answer your question on sexist depictions also i don't

think the UK get the same TV progrommes as the US anyway.

I myself wouldn't waste my life trying to change minor things - there as many stupid,

comical, (insert any adjective you like) Men as women in the world you can't change

them all!!

One man's mirth is another man's discomfort - youre never going to please all of the

people all of the time so my advice is to 'lighten up' move along on and sometimes even

laugh a little at oneself!

I think this thread has run it's course - i'm moving on now so see you around

and just

so you know a fair %age of your stars on this thread came from me

so i don't really

have much to argue with you about!!

I guess I will also simply drop the subject, as I am not sure what you were initially talking about..

I feel like I need to add my two cents to this, since I've been through the court system and subsequent, "treatment" for a domestic violence charge. If you personally haven't gone through this system in the US, even if you know someone who has, then I don't think you have the awareness of how it works to form a complete and honest opinion of it. Because after all, these cases mostly exist of he-said, she-said.

Without disregarding situations of absolute and brutal violence which are serious matters, did you know you can be jailed for simply closing shut a cabinet door a little too hard, or raising your voice?

What I did landed me in jail. Which was restraining mom while she broke things in the house. She then started fighting me, which led to further altercation.

However, with that said - as a male, no one in the system cares about the abuse I suffered physically and emotionally for the year up to the point where the incident occurred. I've dealt with threats, entry doors broken down, house walls and property broken by things being thrown, forced entry, harassment, and all the while mom was taking overdoses of prescription drugs intermittently while pregnant.

The system could care less about what I've said about any of it. But no matter what she says, it's taken as the complete truth. Had I not tried to live through the crazy hormonal pregnancy as advised by people I knew, she would have been landed in jail for child abuse for overdosing on prescription drugs while pregnant. In this case trusting the police to intervene in my personal life is something of a last item on my list. I just dealt with it silently which turned out to be a very bad idea.

So here I am with my first born child, kicked out of the home I lived in for 7 years, after she was there for a month - while I still pay rent for mom and her two other daughters, risking jail violating the mandatory restraining order to even see my newborn. All the while I'm still being threatened and harassed.

Just by sharing this online could put me in trouble, because I'm supposed to completely submit to the entire system, or I never get out of it. My record was clean before this, and clean after. Her's is chock full of criminal and civil history of drug abuse and indiscretions.

It's damaged my reputation, my ability to be a father, and have been completely uprooted in life. I fear having to pay lots of money in child support, and not being able to see my daughter. No one cares but my family, and I'm glad I have them for support.

I wish the battle of the sexes would just go away, but I fear it will only get worse with the ever increasing power of the state, and the ever increasing laws, regulations, and litigation in court. It makes it almost impossible that there will ever be neutral ground. More of just an ever increasing war that's being waged in courts, under the threat of violence or jail carried out by the government.

I'm tired. I'm depressed. My only hope is that I can still be a father to my daughter, and move past this.