The Life of Issa and the Gospels

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Good, I'm glad we agree on that.

I can understand why some would want to preserve the words, for posterity, history and inspiration. But, I don't understand the belief that offensive, inappropriate and outdated belief systems can still be thought of as the inerrant word of god.

I didn't say any of that. I agree it's not for this culture because in today's church for one the Christian faith isnt new and for two women and men do not sit segregated in synagogue like they used to at the time of Paul.

St. Issa appears to have a tomb in Kashmir India....

www.pattayadailynews.com...

Amid the military installations in Kashmir’s Srinagar is a novel tourist attraction that is increasingly drawing pilgrims, the alleged tomb of St. Issa aka Jesus Christ. Ostensibly, the last resting place of medieval Muslim preacher,Youza Asaph, the tomb in reality that of Jesus, according to a mixed bunch New Age Christians, unorthodox Muslims and fans of the Da Vinci Code, who are convinced that Jesus came to India following his crucifixion and lived out his days there to die and finally be buried in Srinagar.

Very good little web page with a whole lot more details.

www.tombofjesus.com...

Photos of the Rozabal Tomb in Srinagar, Kashmir

I thought Jesus said he was sent only for the Lost sheep of israel why did he come to the other countries?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

And he just happened to walk from Israel all the way over to China, Pakistan and India on his 2 feet through all the mountainous terrain. Yeah right .

Yeah! Right! There were established (well-established) trade routes all over that area. It was no big thing for people to travel, not hard at all...and most of those cultures did trade amongst themselves AND recognized each others' gods.

This is fact.

reply to post by wildtimes


Exactly. There were paths to go through, most people are unaware of that though. People back then were more intelligent than we believe.

Also, even if there were mountains, I believe there was a verse talking about how you can move mountains if you have faith

Perhaps I have missed it, but I am surprised that no-one has considered the possibility that Issa could have been Thomas. Thomas's ministry is documented to have followed the Silk Road and he was referred to by Jesus himself as his 'Twin' or Didymus. Though it is reasonable to assume that Jesus could have himself made this journey, all things considered I think that it is unlikely given the nature of his teachings. His teachings are almost exclusively founded in the Greek tradition, often drawing from Aesop's, especially in the parabels. Had Jesus himself studied the Vedas or even had the life experience that such far flung travels would have afforded him, that there would have been much more of an 'exotic' undertone to his words. It could have been editorialised obviously, but personally, I find it much more likely that Thomas was Issa.

Interestingly enough, Issa is Arabic for 'God Saves' or 'Salvation'. Is it possible that Issa was the message and not the messenger?

reply to post by Akragon

I believe Jesus traveled in the years "missing" from the bible... And in his travels he learned from various religions such as this... Perfected what he learned, and returned to start his ministry.

Jesus did travel many places in which are not written. But, he didn't learn in the way in which you think. Jesus has always been. He is the only one in time, who has kept his complete memory in tact. Unlike others who have come from above, their memories are erased.

In his learning, he learned how man operates, thinks, and interacts. This was done, so that when the time came, he would be able to speak and interact and adapt easily to all of the difference races and cultures.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by Akragon

 

I believe Jesus traveled in the years "missing" from the bible... And in his travels he learned from various religions such as this... Perfected what he learned, and returned to start his ministry.

Jesus did travel many places in which are not written. But, he didn't learn in the way in which you think. Jesus has always been. He is the only one in time, who has kept his complete memory in tact. Unlike others who have come from above, their memories are erased.

In his learning, he learned how man operates, thinks, and interacts. This was done, so that when the time came, he would be able to speak and interact and adapt easily to all of the difference races and cultures.

Perhaps i wasn't completely clear in my OP...

I also believe this same thing... He retained the memory of being with the Father... Unlike anyone ever born before or after...

When i said he "perfected what he learned"... i was refering to the wisdom of man... Not the wisdom of God..

Read chapter 4

5 Soon after, a marvelous child was born in the land of Israel, God himself speaking by the mouth of this infant of the frailty of the body and the grandeur of the soul.

6 The parents of the newborn child were poor people, belonging by birth to a family of noted piety, who, forgetting their ancient grandeur on earth, praised the name of the Creator and thanked him for the ills with which he saw fit to prove them.

7 To reward them for not turning aside from the way of truth, God blessed the firstborn of this family. He chose him for his elect and sent him to help those who had fallen into evil and to cure those who suffered.

8 The divine child, to whom was given the name of Issa, began from his earliest years to speak of the one and indivisible God, exhorting the souls of those gone astray to repentance and the purification of the sins of which they were culpable.

9 People came from all parts to hear him, and they marveled at the discourses proceeding from his childish mouth. All the Israelites were of one accord in saying that the Eternal Spirit dwelt in this child.

10 When Issa had attained the age of thirteen years, the epoch when an Israelite should take a wife,

11 The house where his parents earned their living by carrying on a modest trade began to be a place of meeting for rich and noble people, desirous of having for a son-in-law the young Issa, already famous for his edifying discourses in the name of the Almighty.

12 Then it was that Issa left the parental house in secret, departed from Jerusalem, and with the merchants set out towards Sind,

13 With the object of perfecting himself in the Divine Word and of studying the laws of the great Buddhas.

At a very early age he spoke of God... likely before he could read...

I believe he traveled to learn of the "other Gods" and religions of the time so no one.... not even their "priests" and wise men could argue with him...

reply to post by Akragon


John 10:16

Christ said, "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd "

Makes you think.

reply to post by Akragon



Wow…Interesting thread topic…

S+F


And what I found rather amazing, is that the meaning of the name “Issa”, translates to Salvation or Protection.

From Chapter 5
4 They taught him to read and understand the Vedas, to cure by aid of prayer, to teach, to explain the holy scriptures to the people, and to drive out evil spirits from the bodies of men, restoring unto them their sanity.

Sounds like Jesus…”He taught as one having authority”

From Chapter 5
11 He inveighed against the act of a man arrogating to himself the power to deprive his fellow beings of their rights of humanity; "for," said he, "God the Father makes no difference between his children; all to him are equally dear."

Sounds like Jesus…”You are more precious than the birds of the air”

From Chapter 5
12 Issa denied the divine origin of the Vedas* and the Puranas*. "For," taught he to his followers, "a law has already been given to man to guide him in his actions;

What Law?…the 10 commandment perhaps?…

From Chapter 5
13 "Fear thy God, bend the knee before him only, and bring to him alone the offerings which proceed from thy gains."

Sounds like Jesus…

From Chapter 5
16 "He alone has willed and created, he alone has existed since all eternity, and his existence will have no end. He has no equal either in the heavens or on earth.

Again sounds like Jesus, trying to get people to believe, in the one true God.

From Chapter 5
18 "He willed it and the world appeared. In a divine thought, he gathered together the waters, separating from them the dry portion of the globe. He is the principle of the mysterious existence of man, in whom he has breathed a part of his Being.

Sounds like Jesus, similar to the Gospel of Thomas IMO…

From Chapter 5
20 "The anger of God will soon be let loose against man; for he has forgotten his Creator, he has filled his temples with abominations, and he worships a crowd of creatures which God has made subordinate to him.

Again sounds like Jesus talking with the Pharisees at the temple and telling them they were following their Father, the Father of lies etc…

From Chapter 5
21 "For to do honor to stones and metals, he sacrifices human beings, in whom dwells a part of the spirit of the Most High.

Awesome…

From Chapter 5
23 "Those who deprive their brethren of divine happiness shall be deprived of it themselves. The Brahmans and the Kshatriyas shall become the Sudras, and with the Sudras the Eternal shall dwell everlastingly.

Again similar to Jesus…”the first shall become last, and the last shall become first”…

From Chapter 5
24 "Because in the day of the last judgment the Sudras and the Vaisyas will be forgiven much because of their ignorance, while God, on the contrary, will punish with his wrath those who have arrogated to themselves his rights."

He believes in the last Judgment, just like Jesus!!!

From Chapter 5
25 The Vaisyas and the Sudras were filled with great admiration and asked Issa how they should pray so as not to lose their eternal felicity.

26 "Worship not the idols, for they hear you not. Listen not to the Vedas, for their truth is counterfeit. Never put yourself in the first place and never humiliate your neighbor.

27 "Help the poor, support the weak, do ill to no one, and covet not that which thou hast not and which thou seest belongeth to another."

He teaches people how to pray…and is teaching parts of the ten commandments…

It’s early days…but this can’t all be coincidence…


- JC

Chapter 9


10 The Israelites came in crowds at the word of Issa, asking him where they should praise the Heavenly Father, seeing that the enemy had razed their temples to the ground and laid low their sacred vessels.

11 And Issa made answer to them that God had not in view temples erected by the hands of man, but he meant that the human heart was the true temple of God.

John

12 "Enter into your temple, into your heart. Illumine it with good thoughts and the patience and immovable confidence which you should have in your Father.

Matthew

13 "And your sacred vessels, they are your hands and your eyes. See and do that which is agreeable to God, for in doing good to your neighbor you accomplish a rite which embellishes the temple wherein dwells he who gave you life.

Matthew

14 "For God has created you in his own likeness-innocent, with pure souls and hearts filled with goodness, destined not for the conception of evil schemes but made to be sanctuaries of love and justice.

Matthew

15 "Wherefore I say unto you, sully not your hearts, for the Supreme Being dwells therein eternally.

Luke

16 "If you wish to accomplish works marked with love or piety, do them with an open heart and let not your actions be governed by calculations or the hope of gain.

Matthew

17 "For such actions would not help to your salvation, and you would fall into that state of moral degradation where theft, lying, and murder pass for generous deeds."

The parable of the sower

reply to post by Akragon

Very very intriguing Akragon and as an aside, I too always enjoy your contributions around here.

I also did a thread on a similar line of reasoning, which also involves the life of Jesus during the missing years and post-resurrection/resuscitation

The Jews and all modern religious traditions originated in ancient India


And while, towards the end of the following thread - because of a type of spiritual attack/psychological breakdown I suffered this past Christmas (I always get a HUGE dose of the spirit every Christmas along with the sense of an unsolved mystery surrounding it, combined with increasing symptoms of SAD or seasonal affective disorder (lack of sunlight)) - it goes let's say.. a little whacky (where I appear to be in a conversation addressing the Pope as if he's reading the thread - hey ya never know!), I also explored some of these ideas here in this thread, as well:

Why did the Pope dress up as Santa?


Personally I just love any and all conversations about Jesus, who, to me appears to represent a crossroads of all the great spiritual and philosophical traditions, from Hindu to Buddhist/Taoist, to Egyptian, Greek, and Jewish traditions.

Absolutely fascinating and inspiring imho, not blasphemous, except in accordance with strict church doctrine eminating from the Roman Church, who itself prosecuted the 12 emanations of the magi..

Best Regards,

NAM

P.S. I also think that some of Jesus' parables and stories and illustrative visions he borrowed from his own dreamlife. You see, his consciousness was so pure, and he was so aware (unconscious made conscious), ideas and concepts he was working with surely presented themselves to him in his dreamlife ie: the parable of the sower, prodigal son, good Sameritan etc may have been given to him in a dream.. just an interesting speculation on my part.


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Edit to add: for those who take the time to comb through this, and the links I've provided in this post, and who are up to the challenge of putting on their detective hat - there is a great religious conspiracy and a great truth lurking here at ATS, which you wouldn't find ANYWHERE. It's a real treasure trove, big time!

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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
And he just happened to walk from Israel all the way over to China, Pakistan and India on his 2 feet through all the mountainous terrain. Yeah right

.

Rebuttal:

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
And he just happened to walk from Israel all the way over to China, Pakistan and India on his 2 feet through all the mountainous terrain. Yeah right

.

And not to memtion His followers, brothers, feuends, and enemies all watched Him die and recorded it into the historical record. Even hostile witnesses record His death in 32 AD. Every body has their own stories and theories to explain away or deny His blood atonement for our sins, His greatest accomplishment enrages everyone. They hate the idea so much, just accept what the Man said about Himself and why He said He came down from Heaven.

Regardless, he still willingly and courageously entered the jaws and the belly of the beast, was obediant unto death, and was entombed for three days. How it came about that he made it through the ordeal, if it was somehow aided by friends like Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea and a certain Roman Soldier.. doesn't diminish one iota his Great Work of the taking upon himself the sins of the world.

I'm convinced however, that those who met him after the stone was rolled away (aided by men in dazzling white apparel?) didn't recognize him, until he wanted them to, because he was in disguise, yes you heard it right.

Jesus was a trained Magi, and was certainly the most intelligent person, and the most charming, to walk the face of the earth.

Where Buddha sought to be one with everything and achieve Nirvana amid an escape from all sufffering, what we have with Jesus is something much greater, and more practical. He was an absolute spiritual genius, and in his own rebirth from above indeed he was nothing less than the son of the living God, and so remains one in spirit. Everything you believe is still just as valid, but it's nice for others to recognize in Jesus something utterly extraordinary without having to discard their rational faculties.

And when he said "what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul" (essential character and passion) that wasn't about wordly pursuits or material gain, but a spiritual truth repudiating Buddhism taken to its nihilistic extreme.

He carried out the ritual and completed the great work, and then went to be with his father which doesn't mean that he had to have been lifted into a cloud on a tractor beam.

After a half life of sorrow, to complete the whole thing, and create that sacred space within himself and through him with the Father, he had to contain an equal amount of joyful living, so that those who would be killed for their belief in him would have a place of eternal happiness and joy with him.

It all makes perfect sense, and takes on an even more extraordinary dimension when faith can be joined with reason in sympathetic understanding.

My love for him grows the more I seek to understand him and his motivations. The hardened and spiritually dry strictly interpreted Church doctrine of "Paulianity" (don't get me wrong as Paul did his best) in and of iteslf doesn't make the spirit in man soar, but a Jesus, a human Jesus we can actually relate to, does.

To me, the historical Jesus, the real person on the other side of the mask of the mythology, is not only a true friend, but the cosmological superhero of the ages. He is still the rock, but also the real thing, which makes of him someone you can LOVE, which is the whole point of it all isn't it?

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Oh my goodness! What a picture you have painted here! Creative, colorful, cosmic, warming, inspiring, and I don't believe it for a moment. It doesn't even hold together logically, but it does paint a picture of a man I would run from.

Jesus was a really smart man and charming. He was a superhero and a spiritual genius (whatever that means). He was at least in His second life,

and in his own rebirth from above indeed he was nothing less than the son of the living God

Meaning, I suppose that he had reached the pinnacle of reincarnations and had come back as a god and a man as the Church understands it. But apparently he had become a god at some previous point, the word "rebirth" forces us to believe that because gods can't be reborn. At least under any normal understanding of what a god is.

So, the God-Man (who wasn't quite up to snuff yet) travelled to somewhere where he was trained to be a magi. (Which is a foreign word meaning a God-Man who is trained to be better than he was. Sort of like going from minor league baseball to the bigs.)

Of course his Buddhist trainers weren't really very good because he discarded their central, core doctrine of Nirvana.

And when he said "what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul" (essential character and passion) that wasn't about wordly pursuits or material gain, but a spiritual truth repudiating Buddhism taken to its nihilistic extreme.

I suppose his rejection of Nirvan brought him to the "Super Duper Big Leagues."

Where Buddha sought to be one with everything and achieve Nirvana amid an escape from all sufffering, what we have with Jesus is something much greater, and more practical.

Jesus

entered the jaws and the belly of the beast, was obediant unto death,

except, of course he didn't go to death, he fooled everyone including the Roman soldier who knew what a corpse on a cross looked like and the people who wrapped him up with much wailing.

The first thirty (or so) years of his life were miserable and sorrowful, so after he came out of the hole he basically partied for thirty some odd years, then he died and went to his father. He spent the party years to let his followers have a happy space when they died.

Wouldn't it have been nice to TELL SOMEBODY ABOUT IT???

There is no reason for his followers to have any hope at all, since we don't know about his happy years. But we do have hope. Why?

his Great Work of the taking upon himself the sins of the world.

So, he took the sins and died when he was sixty. The "great work" wasn't taking the sins to the Cross, it was "paying" for the sins and rising up to eternal life. That's why Easter is the biggest celebration the Church has. Paul wrote that the dying on the cross wasn't the big deal, if there wasn't any resurrection their entire faith fell apart. That's why Christians have hope, and you're trying to take it away.

My love for him grows the more I seek to understand him and his motivations. The hardened and spiritually dry strictly interpreted Church doctrine of "Paulianity" (don't get me wrong as Paul did his best) in and of iteslf doesn't make the spirit in man soar, but a Jesus, a human Jesus we can actually relate to, does.

To me, the historical Jesus, the real person on the other side of the mask of the mythology, is not only a true friend, but the cosmological superhero of the ages. He is still the rock, but also the real thing, which makes of him someone you can LOVE, which is the whole point of it all isn't it?

The story you present is wildly different from the Gospels, so the Gospels have to go as a source of reliable information. Paul doesn't do anything for you, so throw him out. And if Paul "did his best" you seem to be rejecting the idea of divine inspiration of the Bible. So a bunch of guys wrote an ordinarily erroneous book which may or may not have anything to say about Jesus. And what it does say, if accurate, came entirely from the suffering portion of his life. So where are you getting your information about Jesus from if not from the Bible? How do you relate to someone who you created out of thin air?

And if the Bible is all false or misleading, what does that say about the god who inspired it and let it survive through so many attempts to kill it?

Oh, Love is important, but if there isn't Truth then you don't have love.

I have not meant to sound hateful, but I cannot accept the analysis you've presented.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


They didn't recognize Him at first after the ressurection because during the ordeal before being nailed to the cross the Roman soldiers who tortured Him plucked His beard out. This was prophesied as well. Have you ever seen how weird someone looks to you when they shave their beard and you've never seen them without one? You'll mistake them until you see their eyes up close or hear them speak to you.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
And he just happened to walk from Israel all the way over to China, Pakistan and India on his 2 feet through all the mountainous terrain. Yeah right

.

Rebuttal:

Love the geographical rebuttal lol

Funny thing is, if was Issa was Jesus, then he could easily have made the journey with the powers that he possessed. He could have said to one mountain, move over there and to another mountain; move over here, kind of like a version of the “parting of the red sea”…only with mountains instead lol

- JC

reply to post by NOTurTypical


They didn't recognize him (Jesus) because he was dressed as a gardener. Gardeners often wore beekeepers masks, so his face was veiled. (Clue, they fed him honey comb upon his request for food) One has to ask, "Where did he get the clothing that he was wearing?" If he was resurrected by god, in his spiritual body, he wouldn't have needed the mundane clothing of a gardener. Surely, God would have clothed him just as he clothed the lilies of the field and the birds of the air.

There you go again, with the wishful thinking of a more painful and torturous experience than the scriptures describe. Nowhere in the gospels does the bible say that the beard of Jesus was plucked out! That's just cherry picking Old Testament folklore, trying to make it a prophecy. Since it doesn't really fit, you have to exaggerate the narrative.

Although this thread is about the life and teachings of St Issa, Akragon has shown that the text being discussed here is from the travels of a young man, 13 or so, who left his home instead of taking a bride. These texts fit nicely with the teaching of Jesus. Coincidence?

reply to post by charles1952

What is born of flesh is flesh, but of spirit, spirit. You've misunderstood what I was saying or I communicated it badly.

Being with the father is something that Jesus had whether here or there (in the abode of light).

Saul/Paul's authentic experience on the Road to Damascus, about 40 some odd years after the crucifixion proves that indeed Jesus was who and what he said he was. I find it interesting that Jesus' activity recommenced there and then at that time.

And yes, where suffering and sorrow has carved into our being the more joy we can contain, and those happy years afterwards were I think essential for Jesus to fully generate that realm/domain of eternal bliss and joy both for himself and his followers, that they too might be with him. A full human life after all contains or ought to contain an equal measure of both.

I would have taken great courage and insight for Jesus to leave them all behind like that (except for Thomas who rejoined him on his tours), recognizing that they would all be killed for their faith in him. He did not abandon them however, but did the neccessary "work" so that these men would become living saints in death.

You don't have to believe it. It's just what I've discovered through a personal inquiry and investigation while also, in my own experience, consulting the spirit about it and for me it "groks" (makes perfect sense and resonates with what is believable).

It's like a resurrection of the historical Jesus, and it certainly puts a new spin on the spirit and meaning of Christmas and of Santa whereby Saint Nicholas was surely immitating Christ, both young AND old.

And the idea of Jesus with his wife at his side riding out of Jerusalem, a white suit and temple gold in the back of a one horse carriage with bells ringing out, laughing his ass off all the way, makes my spirit soar!


Best Regards,

NAM

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

They didn't recognize Him at first after the ressurection because during the ordeal before being nailed to the cross the Roman soldiers who tortured Him plucked His beard out.

Can you cite any scriptural references for that?

Also, how do you explain his hunger for food, after the three days in the tomb, if he was in his new ready to ascend (straight up)) transformed body?