The Life of Issa and the Gospels

This is Part II of a thread i made a while back... The Lost Years

In 1894 Nicolas Notovitch published a book called The Unknown Life of Christ. He was a Russian doctor who journeyed extensively throughout Afghanistan, India, and Tibet. Notovitch journeyed through the lovely passes of Bolan, over the Punjab, down into the arid rocky land of Ladak, and into the majestic Vale of Kashmir of the Himalayas. During one of his jouneys he was visiting Leh, the capital of Ladak, near where the buddhist convent Himis is. He had an accident that resulted in his leg being broken. This gave him the unscheduled opportunity to stay awhile at the Himis convent.

Notovitch learned, while he was there, that there existed ancient records of the life of Jesus Christ. In the course of his visit at the great convent, he located a Tibetan translation of the legend and carefully noted in his carnet de voyage over two hundred verses from the curious document known as "The Life of St. Issa."

He was shown two large yellowed volumes containing the biography of St. Issa. Notovitch enlisted a member of his party to translate the Tibetan volumes while he carefully noted each verse in the back pages of his journal.

When he returned to the western world there was much controversy as to the authenticity of the document. He was accused of creating a hoax and was ridiculed as an imposter. In his defense he encouraged a scientific expedition to prove the original tibetan documents existed.

One of his skeptics was Swami Abhedananda. Abhedananda journeyed into the arctic region of the Himalayas, determined to find a copy of the Himis manuscript or to expose the fraud. His book of travels, entitled Kashmir O Tibetti, tells of a visit to the Himis gonpa and includes a Bengali translation of two hundred twenty-four verses essentially the same as the Notovitch text. Abhedananda was thereby convinced of the authenticity of the Issa legend.

For anyone who has read the Gospels, there is a clear message... Love and selflessness...

The character in these texts known as Issa preached these teachings, he learned from ancient scripture such as the Vedas and even perfected the teachings held within... His authority on scripture was questioned by many great "teachers"... and He always had the answers...

Chapter 5

4 They taught him to read and understand the Vedas, to cure by aid of prayer, to teach, to explain the holy scriptures to the people, and to drive out evil spirits from the bodies of men, restoring unto them their sanity.

5 He passed six years at Juggernaut, at Rajagriha, at Benares, and in the other holy cities. Everyone loved him, for Issa lived in peace with the Vaisyas and the Sudras, whom he instructed in the holy scriptures.

6 But the Brahmans and the Kshatriyas told him that they were forbidden by the great Para-Brahma to come near to those whom he had created from his side and his feet;

7 That the Vaisyas were only authorized to hear the reading of the Vedas, and this on festival days only;

8 That the Sudras were forbidden not only to assist at the reading of the Vedas, but also from contemplating them, for their condition was to serve in perpetuity as slaves to the Brahmans, the Kshatriyas, and even the Vaisyas.

9 "'Death only can set them free from their servitude' has said Para-Brahma. Leave them then and come and worship with us the gods, who will become incensed against thee if thou cost disobey them."

10 But Issa listened not to their discourses and betook him to the Sudras, preaching against the Brahmans and the Kshatriyas.

11 He inveighed against the act of a man arrogating to himself the power to deprive his fellow beings of their rights of humanity; "for," said he, "God the Father makes no difference between his children; all to him are equally dear."

12 Issa denied the divine origin of the Vedas* and the Puranas. "For," taught he to his followers, "a law has already been given to man to guide him in his actions;

13 "Fear thy God, bend the knee before him only, and bring to him alone the offerings which proceed from thy gains."

14 Issa denied the Trimurti and the incarnation of Para-Brahma in Vishnu, Siva, and other gods, for said he:

15 "The Judge Eternal, the Eternal Spirit, comprehends the one and indivisible soul of the universe, which alone creates, contains, and vivifies all. *Inasmuch as Jesus' closest disciple, John, begins his Gospel with a quote from the Vedas, "In the beginning was the Word . . . ,"

((the authenticity of this passage (15) has been questioned.))

The message from the Gospels echoes throughout these texts...

Humility and devotion to what is Good... Love and selflessness

25 The Vaisyas and the Sudras were filled with great admiration and asked Issa how they should pray so as not to lose their eternal felicity.

26 "Worship not the idols, for they hear you not. Listen not to the Vedas, for their truth is counterfeit. Never put yourself in the first place and never humiliate your neighbor.

27 "Help the poor, support the weak, do ill to no one, and covet not that which thou hast not and which thou seest belongeth to another."

Issa even Challenges the Pagan Gods: Chapter 7

3 And Issa made answer to them: "If your idols and your animals are powerful and really possessed of supernatural strength, then let them strike me to the earth."

4 "Work then a miracle," replied the priests, "and let thy God confound our gods, if they inspire him with contempt."

5 But Issa then said: "The miracles of our God have been worked since the first day when the universe was created; they take place every day and at every moment. Whosoever seeth them not is deprived of one of the fairest gifts of life.

He speaks of God being Forgiveing and merciful... as the Gospels do... Unlike much of what is said of God within the OT

He also speaks against "priests" of man made laws... and worship of the sun.

13 Then Issa answered, "So long as the people had no priests, the natural law governed them, and they preserved the candor of their souls.

14 "Their souls were with God, and to commune with the Father they had recourse to the medium of no idol or animal, nor to the fire, as is practiced here.

15 "You contend that one must worship the sun, the spirit of good and of evil. Well, I say unto you, your doctrine is a false one, the sun acting not spontaneously but according to the will of the invisible Creator who gave it birth

16 "And who has willed it to be the star that should light the day, to warm the labor and the seedtime of man.

17 "The Eternal Spirit is the soul of all that is animate. You commit a great sin in dividing it into a spirit of evil and a spirit of good, for there is no God outside the good,

18 "Who, like unto the father of a family, does but good to his children, forgiving all their faults if they repent them...

I have little doubt that these are his words...

I believe Jesus traveled in the years "missing" from the bible... And in his travels he learned from various religions such as this... Perfected what he learned, and returned to start his ministry.

reluctant-messenger.com...

reply to post by Akragon


There was also speculation that at some time when he would have been 17 or 18 that he visited Europe with Joseph of Aramethia. I don't recall where I found it but one quote I remember was there was a document that stated something to the effect that one of the passengers on board was a "Jesus son of Joseph". Too lazy to look it up again now, but there is a lot of time between when he was 12 in the temple and when he turned 30 and started his ministry. There really is no telling where he went or what he did.

And he just happened to walk from Israel all the way over to China, Pakistan and India on his 2 feet through all the mountainous terrain. Yeah right .

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Who said he walked? Is this not your God? Is he not capable of miracles? Bending time and space, etc?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
And he just happened to walk from Israel all the way over to China, Pakistan and India on his 2 feet through all the mountainous terrain. Yeah right

.

Your "God" can walk on water.... yet some mountians can prevent him from travel?

Interesting...

:shk:

Cool topic Akragon.

6 But the Brahmans and the Kshatriyas told him that they were forbidden by the great Para-Brahma to come near to those whom he had created from his side and his feet;

This caught my eye, especially the references to his feet and side. Does this indicate that Jesus, if he and St. Issa are the same person, survived the cross, as some speculate, and went to India? Hmmm.

Also, I just saw this yesterday, and made me think.

During the Big Flood, some ancient Greek people who lived to the south-west of Himalayas Mountain survived. They are the current white-skin Indians and were called Brahmans at that time. Originally in Brahmanism, people believed in Buddha, which was the inheritance of the Buddha belief of ancient Greek people. www.foreigners-in-china.com...

It is an interesting concept, that the Brahmans were white skinned survivors of the Big Flood. It's easy to see how they would be in conflict with the teachings of Jesus, and how they wanted to lord over the "little people."

I would think the teachings of Jesus would have been much needed in that area, and would justify a continued mission of Jesus/St Issa. Buddhism was actually widespread during the reign of Alexander the Great, and rumors of oppression and excessive power from the Brahmans may have reached Jerusalem, prompting a visit from Jesus.

Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Who said he walked? Is this not your God? Is he not capable of miracles? Bending time and space, etc?

He wouldn't abuse his power for selfish gain, never ever did he do anything that was for his own benefit, but rather for the benefit of others.

reply to post by windword


These texts are supposedly from when Issa was young... not near the age of his death...


Chapter 4

10 When Issa had attained the age of thirteen years, the epoch when an Israelite should take a wife,

11 The house where his parents earned their living by carrying on a modest trade began to be a place of meeting for rich and noble people, desirous of having for a son-in-law the young Issa, already famous for his edifying discourses in the name of the Almighty.

12 Then it was that Issa left the parental house in secret, departed from Jerusalem, and with the merchants set out towards Sind,

13 With the object of perfecting himself in the Divine Word and of studying the laws of the great Buddhas.

As a child he possessed GREAT wisdom... Far Beyond his age,,,,

In Chapter 5, he is 21 years old... and he owns all the "teachers of wisdom" in understanding their own scripture

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Who said he walked? Is this not your God? Is he not capable of miracles? Bending time and space, etc?

He wouldn't abuse his power for selfish gain, never ever did he do anything that was for his own benefit, but rather for the benefit of others.

Did you read the passages i gave?

26 "Worship not the idols, for they hear you not. Listen not to the Vedas, for their truth is counterfeit. Never put yourself in the first place and never humiliate your neighbor.

27 "Help the poor, support the weak, do ill to no one, and covet not that which thou hast not and which thou seest belongeth to another."

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
He wouldn't abuse his power for selfish gain, never ever did he do anything that was for his own benefit, but rather for the benefit of others.

Who said anything about it being for selfish gain? Would not a great teacher with great powers use them to reach as many as possible with his message? Would this not be to their benefit?

IF there be any women reading this...

Compare Issa with Paul

Paul

Vs.

Issa

10 "Listen, then, to what I say unto you: Respect woman, for she is the mother of the universe, and all the truth of divine creation lies in her.

11 "She is the basis of all that is good and beautiful, as she is also the germ of life and death. On her depends the whole existence of man, for she is his natural and moral support.

12 "She gives birth to you in the midst of suffering. By the sweat of her brow she rears you, and until her death you cause her the gravest anxieties. Bless her and worship her, for she is your one friend, your one support on earth.

13 "Respect her, uphold her. In acting thus you will win her love and her heart. You will find favor in the sight of God and many sins shall be forgiven you.

14 "In the same way, love your wives and respect them; for they will be mothers tomorrow, and each later on the ancestress of a race.

15 "Be lenient towards woman. Her love ennobles man, softens his hardened heart, tames the brute in him, and makes of him a lamb.

16 "The wife and the mother are the inappreciable treasures given unto you by God. They are the fairest ornaments of existence, and of them shall be born all the inhabitants of the world.

17 "Even as the God of armies separated of old the light from the darkness and the land from the waters, woman possesses the divine faculty of separating in a man good intentions from evil thoughts.

18 "Wherefore I say unto you, after God your best thoughts should belong to the women and the wives, woman being for you the temple wherein you will obtain the most easily perfect happiness.

19 "Imbue yourselves in this temple with moral strength. Here you will forget your sorrows and your failures, and you will recover the lost energy necessary to enable you to help your neighbor.

20 "Do not expose her to humiliation. In acting thus you would humiliate yourselves and lose the sentiment of love, without which nothing exists here below.

21 "Protect your wife, in order that she may protect you and all your family. All that you do for your wife, your mother, for a widow or another woman in distress, you will have done unto your God."

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
And he just happened to walk from Israel all the way over to China, Pakistan and India on his 2 feet through all the mountainous terrain. Yeah right

.

And not to memtion His followers, brothers, feuends, and enemies all watched Him die and recorded it into the historical record. Even hostile witnesses record His death in 32 AD. Every body has their own stories and theories to explain away or deny His blood atonement for our sins, His greatest accomplishment enrages everyone. They hate the idea so much, just accept what the Man said about Himself and why He said He came down from Heaven.

reply to post by Akragon


Paul:

"Men love your wife as Christ loved the church."

(Christ served and sacrificed Himself for the church. He died for her)

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Paul:

Men love you wife as Christ loved the church.

(Christ served and sacrificed Himself for the church. He died for her)

Pffft. That's the best he's got? That pales next to these misogynous statement.

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10 But which becometh women professing godliness with good works.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

This stuff has no place in today's society!

Do you think Jesus wanted his wife to be shamefaced, silent, subjugated and a mere product of transgression, who can only be redeemed through the degradation and pain of childbirth, through god's curse?

These teachings are repugnant and immoral. I also find it more than a little creepy that a bunch of celibate monks are waiting for Jesus' return as their bridegroom, wanting to be his bride.

reply to post by windword


You're correct, it doesnt have any place in today's society. And you don't look at the context. In the first century synagogues men sat on one side and women sat on the other. So instead of interupting services it would be better for questions to be addressed outside of services. In several other epistles Paul praised women for their work on the ministry.

reply to post by Akragon

Dear Akragon,

It's always a joy to see you on a thread, but I'm curious about this one. Why not include that there is more than a fair amount of controversy about Notovitch's book? Let me show you:

The chief lama indignantly repudiated the statements ascribed to him by Notovitch, and declared that no traveler with a broken leg had ever been nursed at the monastery. He stated with emphasis that no such work as the "Life of Issa" was known in Tibet, and that the statement that he had imparted such a record to a traveler was a pure invention. When Notovitch's book was read to him he exclaimed with indignation, "Lies, lies, lies, nothing but lies!" The chief lama had not received from Notovitch the presents Notovitch reported having given him--the watch, the alarm clock, and the thermometer. He did not even know what a thermometer was. In short the chief lama made a clean sweep of the representations of Notovitch, and with the aid of Douglas effected what Muller described as his "annihilation.".

The story of his visit to Hemis seems to be taken from H.P. Blavatsky's Isis Unveiled. In the original, the traveler with the broken leg was taken in at Mount Athos in Greece and found the text of Celsus' True Doctrine in the monastery library.

Today there is not a single recognized scholar on the planet who has any doubts about the matter. The entire story was invented by Notovitch, who earned a good deal of money and a substantial amount of notoriety for his hoax.
—Bart D. Ehrman, Forged: Writing in the Name of God—Why the Bible’s Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are

www.ask.com... And no, Ehrman is not a Chritian apologistic. If there is any objection to him, it's that he doesn't claim to be an atheist.

Oh, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the principles of Buddhism weren't translated into Tibetan until the fifth century at the earliest. Jesus may have heard aboout it from travelers, but it's extraordinarily hard to believe he learned it in Tibet. Tibetans were very unlikely to know of it then.

Anyway, thanks for posting the thread. It is thought provoking.

With respect,
Charles1952
.

reply to post by charles1952


Oh i know of the controversy surrounding the story...

I just wanted to put it out there for people to read if they're interested...

I believe its very possible these are his words, but again i don't know...

Either way "the life of Issa" is a great story...

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Good, I'm glad we agree on that.

I can understand why some would want to preserve the words, for posterity, history and inspiration. But, I don't understand the belief that offensive, inappropriate and outdated belief systems can still be thought of as the inerrant word of god.

reply to post by charles1952


Hello Charles.

I don't really have a dog in this race. I'd rather let my imagination run wild, speculating on what could have been.

One thing that stood out to me, in your quote, was how emphatically certain the head lama was that no one with a broken leg had been taken in, some 2,000 years ago. I find that suspicious.

I also sense some kind of fall-out between the lama and Notovitch. It seems likely that a foreign visitor, seeking access to ancient sacred scrolls would come offering gifts. The lama denying receiving such mundane offerings as an alarm clock and a thermometer seems questionable too, in my opinion.

St Issa may not have been Jesus. But I'm not convinced that St Issa never existed, as this lama claims.

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

I'm so sorry. I treated you and the other readers shabbily. I feel especially bad that I misled you, who is quickly becoming one of my favorites.

You may have noticed that my excerpt started fairly abruptly. I was worried about the "wall of text monster," so I left out the prior paragraph. It talked about another traveller who went to the monastery a few years after Notovitch's story came out. He spoke to the same lama which Notovitch claimed to have spoken with. In the same article I quoted from, it was reported that Notovitch had been in the area, and did see a doctor, but that it was for a tooth problem.

I agree with you, it's a wonderful story. We often don't give our imaginations free enough rein.

(Oh, and I like your signature from Ecclesiastes.)

With respect,
Charles1952