Islam the Religion of Peace? I don't think so...

reply to post by CrimsonKapital
Oh no...

While Islam certainly does have its issues - in my opinion - this is no good. Just like any other group of people, Islam will have its own crazies, and depending on various political climates and all sorts of other factors, that group will get more face time on occasion.

I'm forced to believe, just from what I see, that in moderate political/etc. climates, Islam is more or less like any other groups - the US is not beset by a wave of Islamic violence, despite having millions of muslims (were violence inherently part of the religion, I would ASSUME some of these believers would be offing 'infidels' left and right?).

As well, since you mention Islam as the religion of peace and the only claimant of the title - christianity supposedly follows the Prince of Peace, who instructed his followers in such a way that the early church was completely pacifistic for their first three centuries or so, even to the point of being pleasantly boiled to death while singing hymns, and effectively offering no resistance to their own martyrdom (which I consider a stark refutation to those who claim Christ/christianity do not require pacifism; NOT to be confused with the absence of active but non-violent resistance! We should fight for what's right, but not at the expense of treating others in a way we would not wish to be treated, regardless).

Yet, when I look at those who ID themselves as christian, I see support for war, retaliation, and generally acting more-or-less in every other way like nonbelievers.

My point isn't to dog on christianity or to excuse Islam, it's just to point out that none are innocent, it seems like all offend just as much although such offenses may be marketed differently, and that other factors apply. When placed in comparable situations, all parties seem to act in fairly comparable ways, unless I'm just not catching part of the picture here - muslims in the US tend to behave pretty much like the christians, different habits aside.

reply to post by CrimsonKapital


Islam, like Christianity should be peaceful, and the majority of the followers of these two religions are peaceful.

The problems start with how some groups of Muslims ( Or Christians, for that matter. ) choose to interpret their respective religions, and how far they choose to defend their chosen interpretation. I.e there are moderate and extremist factions in both religions...

reply to post by CrimsonKapital


I think the problem is that you failed to separate the Muslims from Radical Islamists. If you were to replace Islam in your list with Radical Islam, you would have a very valid point. Is that actually what you are meaning to say?

It's a shame you don't seem to seperate the acts of individuals claiming a Faith, contrary to the beleifs of that Faith, from those who actually practice that Faith. For instance the evil done by people claiming to be Christian has nothing at all to do with real Christians. Same here with Muslims. Generalizing like that and not making the distinction tends towards bigotry.

Odd no Mod has intervened in your thread being derailed like that? Your thread is interesting and those derailing it are wrong to do so. I'd point out the Trollish nature of doing that, but hey, why bother.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
What a disgrace this thread is. Religion was created to combat hate, not to spread it.

No offense but you know little about Islam.

According to the Koran and Hadith, Muhammad, the founder of the religion of 'peace'

• Pronounced death for leaving Islam
Sahih Bukhari Book 1, Vol 24, Verse 24

• Told followers that Jihad was the second highest thing after believing in Allah,
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, number 25

• Stated he would fight until everyone admitted their was only one god, Allah,
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, number 24

• Burnt people for not praying and
Sahih Bukhari Book 1, Vol 11, Verse 626

• Forced non Muslims to be humbled, submit to Islam and pay jizyah tax.
Koran Book 9 Verse 29

NOTE: the above are Islam's own religious texts.

If the founder of Islam told his followers that Jihad was second only to believing in Allah, burnt people for not praying, and stated that the penalty for leaving Islam was death, in what sense is Islam a religion of peace?

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
Bash Islam...grow up people seriously.

Alternatively, research a little about Islam before you defend it?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You can find the same calls to violence in the christian bible (isn't it all about how one interprets this stuff?). There is no argument that there are people who will use religion to commit acts of violence. From reading the start of this thread, the claim seems to be that it is Muslims causing all this war. But.... I would argue, that actions speak louder than words. Who is the aggressor when you have one group going to another group's land as opposed to a group defending their own land?

Wasn't it President Bush invoking some biblical canotations, then sending war to these people based on promises to give of evidence that indeed they were guilty of 911, but never actually delivering on that promise?

Originally posted by PeterWiggin

the US is not beset by a wave of Islamic violence, despite having millions of muslims

It's not from want of trying.

Since 9/11, in the USA we have had Muslim Americans conspiring to destroy the Brooklyn bridge, a Somali Muslim living in Ohio plotting to blow up a local shopping mall, a cell of 7 Muslims plotting to blow up the New York stock exchange, A US Muslim and accomplice plotting to blow up the NY subway, two NY mosque leaders who plotted to blow up an Indian diplomat with a shoulder fired grenade launcher, a group of 4 Muslims who plotted to blow up National Guard facilities and synagogues in the LA area, 2 Muslims who conspired to blow up the Wyoming natural gas refinery & the Transcontinental Pipeline, a Muslim flying into Chicago plotting to use a dirty bomb in the USA, 2 Muslim men plotting to blow up the US Capitol and Word Bank Headquarters, 7 Muslims arrested for plotting to blow up the Sears tower in Chicago, 8 Muslims arrested for planning to blow up NY city train tunnels, a Muslim man who plotted to set off hand grenades in a shopping mall outside Chicago, 6 Muslims conspiring to attack Fort Dix, New Jersey, a Muslim who planned to set of a TAPT bomb in the NY subway, a Muslim who plotted to blow up a Dallas skyscraper, a Muslim who tried to set off a car bomb outside the courthouse in downtown Springfield, Illinois, 2 Muslims who plotted to murder civilians in US shopping malls, 4 Muslims plotting to blow up “aviation fuel tanks and pipelines at the John F. Kennedy International Airport” in New York City and 4 Muslims planning to shoot down planes with stinger missiles.

Link

The above is far from complete.

While most Muslims are peaceful the violent minority do a pretty good job of dominating the peaceful majority. Most victims of Islamic violence are other Muslims as the extremists fight for control.

If people want to identify who the violent extremists are and their supporters, look no futher than Wahhabi or Salafi Muslims. Almost all Islamic terrorists come from those schools of Islam.

Where are they strong?

National Review

• Wahhabism is official in Saudi Arabia.

• It is influential in Qatar, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates.

• It has a substantial following in Yemen.

• Hamas in Israel represents pure Wahhabism.

• Forms of neo-Wahhabi or Wahhabized ideology have been powerful in Egypt (the Muslim Brotherhood) and in Pakistan — in both countries neo-Wahhabis lead attacks on other Muslims and other faiths.

• Wahhabi extremism and terrorism continue to plague Nigeria, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, and the Philippines, although its real supporters in these countries are few in number.

• Wahhabi infiltration is a serious problem in East Africa.

• In the Western European immigrant Muslim communities, Wahhabism has a presence in France but has been weakened by the atrocities in Algeria.

• Britain has a loud Wahhabi, neo-Wahhabi, and Wahhabi-wannabe element but little real support for it among local Muslims. Nonetheless the UK's MI5 has a similar list of attempted Islamic terrorist attacks as the US one above, so while the support for Wahhabi Islam is limited, it isn't that small.

For instance, MI5 estimated that 4,000 UK Muslims have been trained by the Taliban The Independent

reply to post by ollncasino


I am not defending anything other that those who use their religion as a gateway of hate are hypocrites. Religion such as Islam and Christianity were not created to hate people, persecute homosexuals, or go on a rampage of blowing stuff up. If you seriously think that's what Islam is (or what any religion is initially) then you my friend are the one needing to do more research.

Originally posted by ScatterBrain
You can find the same calls to violence in the christian bible (isn't it all about how one interprets this stuff?)

No where in the Bible will you find Jesus leading an Army to spread his faith.

Muhammad on the other hand appears as a violent warlord in the Koran, Hadith and historical documents written by Muslims.

For instance,

Muhammad, the founder of the religion of 'peace'

• Fought 8 major battles,
• Led 18 raids,
• Planned another 38 military operations where others were in command but operating under his orders and strategic direction.

HistoryNet

Major battles were exactly that.

• At Kheibar in 628 C.E., the Muslim army was 2,000 combatants.
• When Muhammad mounted his assault on Mecca (630 C.E.) he did so with 10,000 men.
• And at the Battle of Hunayn a few months later the army numbered 12,000.

Source: Islamic Imperialism: A History by Karsh, E. (2007)

Are Muslims aware that Muhammad was a military leader who spread Islam by the sword?

The Koran and the Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith (scared to Sunnis who make up about 85% of all Muslims worldwide) make it abundantly clear that Muhammad was a military general who spread Islam by the sword.

Muhammad also used terror to strike fear into the minds of his enemies on a large scale.

In the case of theJewish tribes of Medina, Muhammad seems to have ordered the deathof the entire Beni Qaynuqa tribe and the selling of their women and
children into slavery before being talked out of it by the chief of one of
his allies.

On another occasion, again against a Jewish tribe of Medina, he ordered all the tribe’s adult males—some nine hundred—beheaded in a city square, the women and children sold into slavery, and their property distributed among his Muslim followers.

Shortly after the conquest of Mecca, Muhammad declared “war to the knife” against all those who remained idolaters, instructing his followers to kill any pagans they encountered on the spot!

Source: Islamic Imperialism: A History by Karsh, E. (2007)

Was the founder of Islam a man of extreme violence?

The Koran, Hadith and Sura clearly show that he was.

Muslims know this.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024

I am not defending anything other that those who use their religion as a gateway of hate are hypocrites. Religion such as Islam and Christianity were not created to hate people, persecute homosexuals, or go on a rampage of blowing stuff up.

Could I suggest that you research what you defend?

For instance, Muhammad made it clear that the penalty for homosexuality was death.

"The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done."

Sunan Abu Dawud (Book #38, Hadith #4447)

I can only presume that you didn't know that as you state that Islam wasn't created to persecute homosexuals. Yet that is what its founder taught.

You also state that Islam wasn't created to hate. Could I suggest that you research Jews and Monkeys in the context of Islam?

Please research what you defend. You have made three assertions above and two are clearly wrong, while the third, 'blowing stuff up', is technically correct as explosives didn't exist in Muhammads day. He did however effectively use all of the weapons available in his day in spreading Islam by the sword.

Koran 9:29

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Koran

reply to post by ollncasino


I am not arguing the issue that we have people using religion to make war. I guess my argument is, what makes it ok to point a finger, when it seems everyone is doing the same thing? In my country, America.. I hear all the time we are going here or there to save some country from violence and war yada yada... but all I see is us doing the very same thing we claim to be trying to stop. In fact, we seem to be proud to totally devastate an area and intentionally make it a point to scare the living daylight out of the people we claim to be helping. To my understanding, and I am not a scholar or anything... but that sounds like the perfect definition of hypocrisy.

I clicked on this thread hoping, HOPING to hear something true, to broaden my horizons and expand my understanding of the middle east conflict. When I got to 'war in afghanistan-islam' i was sorely disappointed.

If that is the best you can do, a heavy brush stroke ignoring all evidence of false flag and mossad connections, then you have just converted another one to Islam-me. Was that your objective all along?

reply to post by ollncasino


So you speak for the founder of Islam now? You can take whatever text you want from the Koran or the Bible and use it to suit your needs and wants. By doing so that is called extremism. So by your definitions, or in this case the scriptures you are putting into context, you define ALL members of Islam as violent thugs bent on nothing but destruction and persecution aka extremists. That is called a stereotype. I grew up with some followers of Islam, and last I checked, they weren't planning a Jihad or whatever context you call it. So please...when you are throwing scripture out to people, don't include every member of it's religion in your context of hate. As long as there are people willing to pull scripture out of context, there will always be hate and violence. Sorry my friend, but not everyone who is Islamist or Christians is hell bent on destruction and hate. I say again: if you seriously believe that was why religion was created, then you need to do more research.

reply to post by Lord Jules


I have to agree with you, I think this thread was just a sorry attempt to promote some more propaganda against Muslims. Apparently it's time to drum up some more support for this next invasion. *sigh
I can see it now, soon every mainstream tv station will show us horrible and scary illusions and groups of Americans will be waving their flags for another "preemptive" attack. For our freedom and security of course.
Ya know... this show is so old, people are already predicting/guessing what false flag is coming next.

Every religion thinks it's the religion of peace.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
So you speak for the founder of Islam now?

I am not allowed to quote directly from the Koran and Hadith to demonstrate that Muahammad pronounced the death penalty for leaving Islam, burnt people for not praying and spoke of fighting people until they were humbled and admitted Islam's superiority?

Why ever not?

Originally posted by DragonFire1024

You can take whatever text you want from the Koran or the Bible and use it to suit your needs and wants.

Alternatively, you could just read it.

I wonder if you are aware that violent Jihad makes up

• 24% of the Medinan Koran
• 21% of the Hadith and
• 67% of the Sira.

Statistical Islam

Originally posted by DragonFire1024

So by your definitions, or in this case the scriptures you are putting into context, you define ALL members of Islam as violent thugs bent on nothing but destruction and persecution aka extremists....don't include every member of it's religion in your context of hate.

Not only have you obviously not read the Koran, Hadith or Sura, you haven't read my posts either.

I pointed out that most victims of Islamic extremism were moderate Muslims and that most Muslims were peaceful in this post. I also pointed out that virtually all Islamic terrorists are Wahhabi or Salafi.

Frankly, I find your attacks somewhat bizzare.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024

As long as there are people willing to pull scripture out of context, there will always be hate and violence.

Please demonstrate where I have 'pulled scripture out of context'.

I won't hold my breath. It is clear that you have little to no knowledge of Islam's scriptures.

"I was ordered to fight all men until they say 'There is no god but Allah."

Prophet Muhammad's farewell address, March 632

Islamic Imperialism: A History by Efraim Karsh

Link

reply to post by ollncasino


All you have been doing is pulling scriptures out to suit your needs. From what I can tell by your posts, it seems you want every Muslim to be an extremist. You keep pointing out scriptures that you are claiming to be fact. You are also claiming that the Koran is a book of war and hate. I could say the same thing about the Bible too. But you know what, I am smarter than that, and most people I know who follow the Bible are smart enough to know that hate isn't the way and that Christianity wasn't created to hate as it would be hypocrisy. So if you want to insist on pulling more scripture out to suit you context of hate, then do so. It will not change the FACT that (at least) Islam and Christianity were not created to hate. You continue to post scripture in an attempt to justify that Islam and the Koran are hateful. That is entirely false. If you truly believe that, then we re all totally screwed as a race. I'm just thankful that there are some people left on this planet who don't hate monger to get their point across.

reply to post by cavtrooper7

I can't comment on the history down under.But I do know Islam is MEAN'T to be a peaceful religion even if I am a christian because I have met some muslims and they didn't act at all like say a Satanist.They smiled and said "hello" just like any christian.
I was give a Quran (I couldn't read it,it was in Arabic) when I was stationed at King Khalid airfield during "Desert Shield" We were watching a soccer game and the firemen we saw it with were aghast when one of the players was quite obviously knocked down and then kicked viscously.We laughed about it and they looked at us in confusion.
They still shared coffee with us and were very hospitable.That is the true face of Islam.not the maniacs who screw young mens heads into running around with a bomb vest.That is the supremacists who mess things up.We have Nazis who are christian,what if they are the only face seen on the news representing the christian faith?
There are members on this board who write me who are muslims.they know who I am yet they never attack because our minds are open to each other not to the media fear game.

So yes it is meant to be peaceful.

BRAVO! You hit the nail on the head my friend! Reguardless of politics, religion, etc etc,..... we all are living in this world together and guess what??? WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS! We all have bad eggs in every bunch, but it doesn't mean we throw all of the eggs away does it?

Tolerence is a word that really needs to be taught in all of our schools and religions!

reply to post by ollncasino


Also...instead of pointing out hate, war, more hate and more war, why not mention the good things the Koran says? So far, I have not seen you make any attempt to do so and in my mind that sounds like you have an agenda...

Originally posted by seeker1963
reply to post by cavtrooper7

 

I can't comment on the history down under.But I do know Islam is MEAN'T to be a peaceful religion even if I am a christian because I have met some muslims and they didn't act at all like say a Satanist.They smiled and said "hello" just like any christian.
I was give a Quran (I couldn't read it,it was in Arabic) when I was stationed at King Khalid airfield during "Desert Shield" We were watching a soccer game and the firemen we saw it with were aghast when one of the players was quite obviously knocked down and then kicked viscously.We laughed about it and they looked at us in confusion.
They still shared coffee with us and were very hospitable.That is the true face of Islam.not the maniacs who screw young mens heads into running around with a bomb vest.That is the supremacists who mess things up.We have Nazis who are christian,what if they are the only face seen on the news representing the christian faith?
There are members on this board who write me who are muslims.they know who I am yet they never attack because our minds are open to each other not to the media fear game.

So yes it is meant to be peaceful.

BRAVO! You hit the nail on the head my friend! Reguardless of politics, religion, etc etc,..... we all are living in this world together and guess what??? WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS! We all have bad eggs in every bunch, but it doesn't mean we throw all of the eggs away does it?

Tolerence is a word that really needs to be taught in all of our schools and religions!

At least someone has some common sense left. I couldn't have said it better myself. The quicker we all realize we are all equal, the less hate and war there will be. But so long as people bent on using religion as a tool of hate are in power, they will use religion to spread more hate and fear into the world's population.

In our time, we find it becoming more and more common for some people to misquote verses from the Quran, or narrations of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), in order to support their twisted presentation of Islam as a hostile and violent religion.

Violence is the use of force to subdue others that may include killing. Violence may be morally legitimate in the eyes of a majority of people when killing animals and birds for self-protection or for food. However, in the religions of Jainism and some sects of Buddhism and Hinduism even killing of animals and insects is not legitimate.

At the human level, violence may be divided into three major types:

(1) Violence committed by an army against another army; in this case it is called a battle or war,
(2) Violence organized by the civilians against tyranny and oppression or to replace one political system with another; in this case the conflict may be called terrorism, civil war or a war of liberation or freedom, depending who is talking, and
(3) Violence committed by individuals or a small group of people for personal gain or revenge; in this case it is called murder, robbery or vendetta, respectively.

Commonly, the meaning of the term Islam is given as peace and also submission. "Violence in Islam" is an oxymoron; a meaningless phrase.
www.aboutjihad.com...