The Right/Left illusion...is NOT an illusion

The ideologies aren't an illusion not on a personal level and not in society. In government and politics it is absolutely an illusion. On the politics and government level it's become theater, actors taking on a role. Maybe not ALL of them but so much that one can truly say it doesn't matter if you vote democrat or republican.

From our most recent history, post 9/11, what has changed in our government, in the policies enacted by our officials? Security, that's it really. Every single other issue, from social issues to economic to environmental...have gone no where, even when the People have an overwhelming consensus on an issue...nothing happens. Sure we've had issues gain or lose ground then a few months later back to nothing.

When is the last time a republican actually introduced legislation to shrink the government or told government to get out of everyone's business or voted to lower taxes on the middle class? When is the last time a democrat introduced legislation to protect workers rights or bring an environmental offender to justice or protected our tax dollars from going to private industry?

Illusion.

Originally posted by Infrasilent
Left and right are essentially unproductive slurs used to generalize beliefs. The paradigm allows the populace to be easily divided into equal and (supposedly) opposite camps such that entrenchment of illogical ideology feeds back upon itself and effective policies can no longer be implemented by either side. The result is our current political climate, where money is the only true motivator because all other positions are deadlocked against their counterparts.

Would doing away with paradigmatic terminology prevent this situation?

I should add that extreme left and extreme right are essentially indistinguishable.

That's entirely untrue. Extreme left and extreme right are completely distinguishable.

On most political spectrum charts, you'll find fascism at the extreme right end and communism on the extreme left. I challenge anyone to find a meaningful difference in their historical implementation. Totalitarianism is the outcome on either side of the aisle.

You're making an argument that holds no water. Any examples you can cite would not be Communist by definition and thus aren't historical implementations of Communism.

Originally posted by Kali74
The ideologies aren't an illusion not on a personal level and not in society. In government and politics it is absolutely an illusion. On the politics and government level it's become theater, actors taking on a role. Maybe not ALL of them but so much that one can truly say it doesn't matter if you vote democrat or republican.

From our most recent history, post 9/11, what has changed in our government, in the policies enacted by our officials? Security, that's it really. Every single other issue, from social issues to economic to environmental...have gone no where, even when the People have an overwhelming consensus on an issue...nothing happens. Sure we've had issues gain or lose ground then a few months later back to nothing.

When is the last time a republican actually introduced legislation to shrink the government or told government to get out of everyone's business or voted to lower taxes on the middle class? When is the last time a democrat introduced legislation to protect workers rights or bring an environmental offender to justice or protected our tax dollars from going to private industry?

Illusion.

But that doesn't make political paradigms an illusion, it makes politicians liars - there's a difference

it has been oft been said
that the principle difference between democrats and republicans is that democrats like women
Obama kinda blew that all to heck though

it does argue the OP effectively...two sides of the same stick
its called the Hegelian dialectic and to not understand how its the main principle in foreign banker controlled American politics is just intellectual laziness

reply to post by JailTales


That's what I said in my very first sentence.

reply to post by SaturnFX


F&S for the OP! I doubt seriously that this thread will end up in the rant forum. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if a new "Truth" forum was created just for it.

There are indeed numerous issues where anyone interested can find stark differences between the two parties, all one has to do is to look. The fact of the matter is, that anytime the republican party gets exposed for who they really are, their response is; "If you think that's bad, you should see the other guy." Talk about school-yard mentality. What a Joke!

The truth of the matter is that the whole country, as well as the world, don't know whether to laugh at, or puke because of, being exposed to such ignorance. The good news is, now that they have exposed their true agenda for all to see, it can only spell doom for their ideology. I really believe that what we are currently witnessing is the twilight of the republican party as we know it.

the right and left are mostly an illusion in that they've both drifted to a point that they are extremely similar.. the old school republicans are NOTHING like what they used to be.. the old school democrats are the same way..

Most republicans these days are anything but conservative, nor are they proponents of small government.. they should form a new party called Republicrats

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Abortion, gay marriage, religion...All of these are a pitance in comparison to your REAL problems as Americans, and current members of a global economy. Actually any nation on earth feels these same issues; just in varying degrees of severity.

I object
Its not important to you...you may not see it as a problem
I however may see civil rights and definition of life a major epic problem that outweighs todays fiscal issues or other concerns.
Who are you to judge what is more or less important based on your personal perspective?

Nope, they don't. You don't have civil rights or liberty, because of how enslaved you are economically and socially it seems if you insist on carrying on this defeatist and seperatist attitude.

Tomorrow we will pay our late bills, and babies will still be murdered without care, or someone may define your body as not your own to choose should some cells be replicating (depends on how your views are).

I'm personally against abortion, but I'm also pro choice, because who the hell am I to tell another human being what to do with themselves, regardless of my beliefs? Perhaps we should spend more time worrying about our own personal freedom, which we have none of, instead of attempting to limit the freedoms of others.

So, how is bills trumping potential loss of liberty with your own body (or murdering unborn..perspective)?

See above, but that's a loaded question you just asked. Again, I am enslaved at the root of all things, economically, therefore everything else is a bit moot is it not? Why would I believe that I am free? When truly I am not, and have not been since I was born.

That is perhaps the weakest argument out there....these issues don't matter because there are more important things...more important to who?

To those who understand how liberty actually functions. To those who know that if you are enslaved economically, that there is no other freedom, all of it is an illusion to hide the fact that you are still a serf.

To those who know that our "masters" enjoy these sorts of conversations we are having, because it pits one of us against another of us, instead of against them. Do you see the problem? Do you see how this is exactly what they want from you?

Economics will always be rising and falling for every civilization throughout time...but once you deal with civil rights, with personal liberties, it resolves it for (theoretically) all time...to me, that is a greater issue than something that will never, ever go away.

Again, you have no civil liberties, and you have no personal liberties. You were "given" these things you have, that's not liberty, that's enslavement. When somebody gives you a right, that means that they can also take them away.

I'm just trying to make you see a bit of perspective here. You can't tackle the issues of civil liberties and rights, freedoms etc, without first fixing the economic problem. Money makes the world go around, and if you don't have what you should have, then how can you actually live properly?

~Tenth

reply to post by JailTales


Exactly.

But the question is, how do you respond to a monster? Cower under the sheets? Pretend or educate yourself into believing it doesn't exist? Or go get the hot iron and start poking the wee devils?

Thats just because you are forced into having two parties of conflicting social issues(usually just religion..) but I can reasonably consider myself in the middle as politics isn't just two parties that conflict on WHO taught you what to believe.

Originally posted by miniatus
the right and left are mostly an illusion in that they've both drifted to a point that they are extremely similar.. the old school republicans are NOTHING like what they used to be.. the old school democrats are the same way..

Most republicans these days are anything but conservative, nor are they proponents of small government.. they should form a new party called Republicrats

edit on 5/31/2012 by miniatus because: (no reason given)

Blurring of the political lines and an ever-drifting center can certainly make yesterday's conservative, or liberal, seem like something other than that. Right-wing icon Ronald Reagan's "Dream...of a world free of nuclear weapons" speech could easily be mistaken for a rant by left-wing philosopher Noam Chomsky, it would seem. Who would've thought that FDR's Socialist Social Security Act and Medicare would be whole-heartedly embraced and championed by the so-called right-wing conservatives of today? Who would've imagined that the most Liberal Senator in the Senate, Barack Obama, would, as President, go on to re-authorize the "Patriot-Act," keep Guantanamo Bay open and direct the US Military to attack a country (Libya) that posed no threat to the US at all (After vehemently arguing against, and casting one of only two dissenting votes, opposing the invasion of Iraq. After arguing strongly against passing the Patriot-Act and promising to close the Guantanamo Bay facility after taking office). Any wonder why so many believe the right/left distinction is of little importance?

reply to post by SaturnFX


S+F SatFX, a lot of people here see some of the issues you mentioned on your post as things TPTB use to keep us distracted from the real problems but not to the people those issues affect. Intellectually lazy is the perfect way to describe people that fall into the left vs right is all an illusion paradigm.

Similar to this:

Gay Marriage
"It's perfect!
An issue EVERYBODY gets mad about and
NOBODY can agree on!"

from Illuminati-Mutal Assured Distraction Set/Steve Jackson

Divide and conquer.

There are countless issues, and most of them have multiple potential positions to take (and that does include abortion and gay marriage).

The notion that Left/Right dichotomy somehow covers political spectrum is an illusion. It is indeed mostly a circus to keep people occupied. Ten parties would not be enough, two is just ridiculous.

Real democracy would mean voting on issues, not parties.

A simple left-right spectrum cannot possibly capture the full range of beliefs and ideologies that are present in society. With a dual axis Cartesian system dividing economic and social points of view you're getting more accurate but you still can't really plot human thought and emotion on a graph. The trouble with the left/right paradigm is inevitably it creates two opposing factions that bitch and argue and call each names like SOCIALIST!!! and GREEDY CAPITALIST!!! while all the while not realizing that they can probably agree on a lot or maybe even compromise a little or have two separate systems for things.. or anything else that's productive and progressive instead of constantly fighting partisan battles and idolizing various people that appear to represent either faction on the media stage (e.g Micheal Moore for liberals and Ann Coulter for conservatives) instead of forming an independent and sovereign ideology based on humanitarian principles

I have a question for you SaturnFX.

Do you consider many of the Big Wall Street Banks as leaning toward the left or the right?

Facts on the frontline would show that they have no preference either way, as long as they can "buy" someone on either "team" to do their bidding.


Obama

Goldman Sachs $1,013,091
Harvard University $878,164
JPMorgan Chase & Co $808,799
Citigroup Inc $736,771
Stanford University $595,716
UBS AG $532,674
Morgan Stanley $512,232

Romney

Goldman Sachs $573,080
JPMorgan Chase & Co $415,075
Bank of America $398,850
Morgan Stanley $373,850
Credit Suisse Group $317,410
Citigroup Inc $301,550
UBS AG $190,500

Also, I find those that don't see the illusion are usually not Democrat or Republican's but Fascists.
They have no problem with irresponsible spending, favors and loopholes to the big Banks on Wall Street and the Mega Corporations while the majority of Small and Medium Sized business America do not have that advantage.
These fascists also don't seem to have a problem with the Police State America is becoming all the protect the fascists in the US Government.

Fortunately, those fascists are few and far between and most people on here and other forums see the scam that it is.


reply to post by SaturnFX

I know Harper here in Canada booted a guy who thought his constituants' wishes which disagreed with the party platform were more important the Harpers party platform

In Wednesday's blog, titled "Holy Smokes," Turner said it is "unfortunate" that he was suspended from the federal Conservative caucus, but added that it's more important to look after his constituents than "heed" his party.

www.cbc.ca...

party politics is one of the greatest emenies of democracy there is


eta
star that jacob
thats the bottom line right there

reply to post by SaturnFX


LL

they are all trash


so i guess you believe the wrestlers on TV are for real and not scripted

same as with politics

an a**clown circus


free your mind


[and i don't mean putting your brain in a preservation canister filled with electrafluid and gelcircuitry]

It is indeed an "illusion", an undercurrent designed to pull you under and never let you surface again.

I think it's very telling that you reference wedge issues (see Wikipedia) as your "evidence" for Left/Right being real. As others have said many, many times in this thread and elsewhere, the reality should be the discussion of issues, not the subscription to any one party.

Ever seen a discussion thread here that was just discussing an issue, sans partisanship? It's remarkable, and while people bicker at one another or play dirty in other ways, the topic still gets discussed.

What happens when someone says, "Only a leftist would say that." etc, before a discussion gets going? Pretty much nothing happens. The thread devolves into people being imbeciles, usually in a display of self-aggrandizing that turns the pit of your stomach and sends onlookers fleeing. The participants in the thread act like they're on Real Time with Bill Maher or The O'Reilly Factor, as they spend all their time throwing out insults and 'zingers' instead of going into an actual discussion, as if they believe an audience or "laugh-track" is applauding for them as they speak.

In a dictatorship, the ruler would use "wedge issues" to the same effect. As our government provides nothing to it's people on a large-scale other than suffering, or war, so too does a dictator use a wedge issue to distract. He will introduce it in dire times when his throne is challenged to make the people tear at each other's throats while putting stuff like "universal poverty and misery" on the back burner.

It's all division, nothing more.

reply to post by SaturnFX
i think people might be trying to point out that the media wants you to believe that you have to be in this group, or that group end of story. when in reality, like you stated already, people can have "right" views on one issue, and "left" views on another issue. this doesn't mean you have to be put in the right or left group. you are an individual. i think they are saying you should free yourself from the party enslavement. you are an individual and you should not be confined to the two party system to tell you what you should think. just my take.