Are Afghans braver than US troops?,tell me about your experiences(With MOS)

reply to post by cavtrooper7


2311
hell no they aren't, the difference in the two is that one can kill at will, and the others hands are tied behind their backs and not allowed to go out and kick the Afgan as, one doesn;t give a crap how many civilians they kill the other isn't allowed to shoot where a civilian may be hurt. Big difference its apples to oranges If our troops were turned lose like they were in WWII it would have been over along time ago. If anyone doesn't believe that then they are fools and don't have a clue.

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Definition of bravery:

1.
brave spirit or conduct; courage; valor.

Example in usage. The brave Afghani freedom fighters managed the courage to fight the mightiest military in the world

Recent incidents of suicide bombing involving children include:

•On June 26, an 8-year-old girl was killed in central Uruzgan province when a bag of explosives that the Taliban had instructed her to carry to a police checkpoint detonated.
•On May 20, in Nuristan province, a suicide vest strapped to a 12-year-old boy exploded prematurely, killing several suspected insurgents, including the boy.
•In early May, five children, all under age 13, from Logar and Ghazni provinces who had allegedly been trained as suicide bombers were arrested by the National Directorate of Security.
•Around May 3, a 14-year-old boy who said he had been coerced by the Taliban into carrying a bomb under threat that he would otherwise have his hand cut off surrendered to international troops in Ghazni province.
•On May 1, a 12-year-old boy blew himself up in a bazaar in the Barmal district of eastern Paktika province, killing four civilians and wounding 12 others.
•On April 13, in Kunar province, an explosive vest detonated by a 13-year-old boy killed 10 people, including 5 schoolboys.

www.hrw.org...

Brave.

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
reply to post by Golf66

 

my skills are CLASSIFIED.

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


Lol. You'd have to get off your couch first.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7

Knife fights would be particularly welcome.

I know Americans who sat on their asses tens of thousands of miles away in Nevada and pushed buttons to launch missiles from predator drones flying overhead in Iraq and Afghanistan... Does that count as bravery?


I spent almost 4 years total in warzones during my 11 year career as a rescue/firefighter in the usaf. I don't know who to feel sorrier for; the Americans, the Afghanis, the Iraqis, or the TCNs cleaning the porta-potties for $40 a month risking their lives in warzones for a job with a subsidiary of Halliburton.

And don't get me started about Black Water ... I mean XE.

I saw more than my fair share. Worst stories I'd have to share would be about coalition forces and contractors to tell you the truth. I'd prefer to not share at this time, so I won't.

now firefighters,
when you think about it:

one of the last bastions of honerable bravery

reply to post by Golf66

Have you EVER seen a US service man run from his position in fear.Maybe hunker down and not respond but never to actually run away.

And to the Fire Fighter:
Yes they do horrible things when they aren't commanded by leaders but by money.But the antidepressants are definately a factor here.
You had a sucky job by the way I would be totally destroyed to see a burnt pilot.Did you go to crash sites or were you field based.I can only hope you didn't get exposed to a burning stealth aircraft.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
reply to post by Golf66

 

Have you EVER seen a US service man run from his position in fear.Maybe hunker down and not respond but never to actually run away.

And to the Fire Fighter:
Yes they do horrible things when they aren't commanded by leaders but by money.But the antidepressants are definately a factor here.
You had a sucky job by the way I would be totally destroyed to see a burnt pilot.Did you go to crash sites or were you field based.I can only hope you didn't get exposed to a burning stealth aircraft.

I have seen american soldiers flee at more tran one ocation. I have also seen them retreat. Call in air support because of the dranger of being over taken in a gun battle.

Running away is not a bad thing if staying mens death. That is called being intelligent.

reply to post by spy66


Now that reminds me of a story !!
That I can go into a little
2005 ( if memory serves me right - may have been 06 Or even 04 )
A British sf team does their thing in deepest darkest stan, went in for an alpha target ( a top priority target ) got him, took him prisoner and proceeded to extract to a safe heli pickup area
This team was supported by a platoon of brit conventional forces ( won't name the regt )
Anyway gets to the extraction point and boom
200 Taliban come over the hill wanting their man back
This supporting Platoon drops their guts jump in their vehicles and buggers off
The sf team hold their ground defending this captured alpha untill the heli turns up
This team takes heavy losses, but hold the enemy back
The team now down to 2 men continue the firefight holding back and causing heavy casulties on the persistent advancing enemy
The heli EVENTUALY turns up
The alpha is dragged on by the heli loady under covering fire from the 60 on the heli and the 2 remaining sf
The 2 guys then proceed to extract to the heli where they are both gunned down by the overwhelming enemy forcess

They didn't die defending coalition - they died defending a prisoner
Against overwhelming odds and knowingly and willing payed the greatest price

What was achieved was invaluable
His capture sent shock waves through the Taliban and insurgency
The int gathered saved countless lives

You are missed lads
But we will meet again
Catch you in the re-org

reply to post by Neocrusader

Interesting piece of fiction that you have concocted here.All the ingredients there too! British Special Forces extracting a high ranking AQ x-ray,a fierce exchange of fire resulting in the deaths of the entire special forces unit,PLUS the support unit somehow "forgetting" that they are highly trained professionals assigned a task and disappearing over the hills at the first sight of the enemy?
Sorry words fail me.

I thought Pat Tillman was brave
and I really think that the "was" in that sentence is one of the dirtyest words ever

wish it applied to the folks responsible for his death

reply to post by nake13


Fiction !
FICTION !!!
You cheaky muther f***er

I lost 2 good friends on that op
The supporting troops although a brit unit were not Brits themselves ( bit of a clue there ) and I was both shocked and appaled at this - even more so when the unit has a very distinguished history and are widely considered as uber brave

Take a step back ......wind your neck in
And let those whom are privalaged to know more than thou speak
Perhaps if you knew half the s**t the guy in your avatar does !!!

Irritated doesn't quite cover it ]:-|


Edit
I thank you for your service- at least you have !
And I commend your defence of the Brit forcess
But dude you were a rupert in the engineers !! ( yes rupert ! There's a clue )
Over 20 years ago !!
With supposedly 4 tours of NI and 1 of Gulf war one
(in 2011 you posted you left the services OVER 20 years ago )gulf war one took place aug 90-Feb 91)
So unless you spent the last few months of your career on ops !!!! - just doing the math ...........sir !
That's cutting awfully close to over 20 years !!

Yep you've wound me up .........sir
Typical bloody officer

"why is it ______ when you say sir, it sounds like c**t"
"practice....................sir"

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
Have you EVER seen a US service man run from his position in fear.

Cav - sure I have seen US Soldier abandon an untenable position on the battle field when that position became flanked or no longer a viable piece of cover based on the tactical situation. I don't think fear was involved so much as a calculated analysis of the declining value of the current position in view of the advantage of a secondary one from which more effective cover or a better volume of accurate fire could be employed.

I have personally un-assed many a position that became too hot in favor of one with more cover as the walls were being deteriorated around me by gunfire. Was fear involved - sure; hell I get scared in combat, who doesn't. It is overcoming the flight response to think through each maneuver rather than just wily Nelly leave a position with no planned alternate. If at any time I stopped being afraid in a firefight I swore to my wife I'd resign that day.

Originally posted by ILikeStars
I know Americans who sat on their asses tens of thousands of miles away in Nevada and pushed buttons to launch missiles from predator drones flying overhead in Iraq and Afghanistan... Does that count as bravery?

I think I covered this before - while it is not the bravery that comes from the exposure to direct fire on a regular basis it is bravery in terms that these young men and women have chosen the hard road in service to their country. Sure they ply their trade from a remote location. That's ok, we can't all be on the pointy end of the spear and all of the cogs in the wheel make the mission possible. However, they do face a lot of other kinds of pressure in risking a career ender mistake, if a kid crashes a drone or fires at the wrong thing - his career and that of his leaders is likely at an unceremonious end.

These are young kids making hard decisions at a time in their lives when their peers are stressed about what to wear to class or how difficult it will be to cram for exam week. They are brave in that they even stepped up to the plate to participate. More than most young kids will do.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7And to the Fire Fighter:
Yes they do horrible things when they aren't commanded by leaders but by money.

If you are referring to the PMC's in theater and their roles as mercenaries and the impression they are above the law and without real leadership - they have leadership. It's just not American leadership. Usually they are PSD's who take their missions and ROE from their principals who are usually Afghani (or Iraqi) nationals as the case may be. That is why they have a more loose free fire authorization. I have met very few PMC contractors who are worth a #. Some were. The problem is that most are the Staff Sergeants and below who just liked being in theater, single guys, aggressive, and adrenaline junkies who come from mainly Infantry or Ranger units. Some of their team leaders might be retired SF operators I guess but not usually the respected superstars of the field. A lot of them switch to PMC's because they don't feel they got the promotion they deserved or are just angry and fed up with our current restrictive ROE. Some are quite simply after revenge for the death of a comrade. Not a god combo IMO.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7But the antidepressants are definitely a factor here

I don't know of anyone on my team who was on an antidepressant in theater. We had access to provagil (modafanil) for alertness while on extended patrol. All it did really was make you more alert when tired - the hard crash after was often not worth the benefit of taking it. Also, being on ODA we had access to all kinds of anti-inflammatory injections for knee, back and other pains. Narcotics were always there but only for GSW or major trauma. Some ambien was dispensed to ensure sleep when tensions were high to enhance performance the next day.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7You had a suck job by the way I would be totally destroyed to see a burnt pilot. Did you go to crash sites or were you field based. I can only hope you didn't get exposed to a burning stealth aircraft.

I hate downed aircraft recovery missions - always a mess. Never a good outcome; least we can get their bodies back for the widows. Pilots have a very unforgiving master in gravity.

Originally posted by spy66I have also seen them retreat. Call in air support because of the danger of being over taken in a gun battle. Running away is not a bad thing if staying means death. That is called being intelligent.

Flee/retreat sounds bad - regrouping to call for superior firepower is a good thing, fight smart. I never had to write a letter to a bombs widow. I can get all the shells and bombs I want Soldier's I can't replace.

reply to post by Neocrusader

Thanks,that was the reply I was hoping for from you.I take it from your descriptive that the unit involved may have been composed of our VERY brave brothers from Nepal? yet they fled the field of battle? You will understand that I do find this hard to believe as,even though I last saw military service more than 20 years ago (as you rightly pointed out) These particular troops, at that time,were amongst the most respected in the British Army.I do have a difficult time equating your description of events with the examples that I personally witnessed that involved that regiment,have standards slipped so badly in the intervening years?

If as you state you lost friends on the operation as described I sincerely retract my comments and hope that their families were looked after.

p.s I take c**t as a compliment,one of the milder epithets that I have been subjected to!

All the best.

reply to post by Neocrusader

Thanks,that was the reply I was hoping for from you.I take it from your descriptive that the unit involved may have been composed of our VERY brave brothers from Nepal? yet they fled the field of battle? You will understand that I do find this hard to believe as,even though I last saw military service more than 20 years ago (as you rightly pointed out) These particular troops, at that time,were amongst the most respected in the British Army.I do have a difficult time equating your description of events with the examples that I personally witnessed that involved that regiment,have standards slipped so badly in the intervening years?

If as you state you lost friends on the operation as described I sincerely retract my comments and hope that their families were looked after.

p.s I take c**t as a compliment,one of the milder epithets that I have been subjected to!

All the best.

reply to post by nake13


Thanks for your response - and I will apologise to a certain extent, but as I'm sure you can appreciate - that kinda struck a nerve

But yes they were those guys
And yes I did and to be honest still do hold them in very high regard
And I'll admit I'm not 100% on the reasons for their premature extraction
Possibly a "helis inbound try and draw the attack away"
Or even heli eta 2 mins - get the hell out of dodge ( as they were in vehicles - not being extracted by air )
As I hinted at the heli extraction was ........delayed shall we say
So possibly ( and I hope probably ) was a result of a bad call / breakdown in coms / a diversion plan that went to rat ####
The thing with them is - an officer says jump - they don't even ask how high - they just keep jumping untill told to do something else ( I noticed in one of your former post commenting how British troops would sooner turn their weapons on TPTB than the public in a civil disturbance - alas the Gurkhas I'm not too sure )- great people, fantastic curries ( hold the fish heads though ! )


Have standards slipped ??
Within regiments - no - some standards may have slipped ( d&d and the likes )
But generally the troops are top notch ( the Brits are who I prefer to work with )
However ..........lol .........and sorry about this .....sir lol
But the standard of officer has not only dropped, but plummeted !
No longer are they officers ......or even soldiers ........they are managers, and not very good ones at that
Towards the end of your career you probably saw the beginnings of the civilianisation of the officer core where managing started to overtake commanding ....or even leading for that matter
There's a big difference between a leader of men and a commander of men
Now they are managers of men
More interested in their own career paths and promotion than their troops and the mission
YES MEN !

( it's almost like its gone back to ww1 )
Coupled with too much Ross kemp
Coupled to the fact that junior ranks and OR's (pvt-sgt) have all the experience - those in command refuse to acknowledge this and instead insist on forcing their pre and misconceptions upon their subordinates

Possibly a part of the problem stems from a gap shall we say in operations
Had northern Ireland, gulf war one a few little incursions then ..................nothing for ten years ( or relatively quiet )
The higher echelons had the Falklands, NI, gulf war, Bosnia ect
The more junior of the officer corps have had Iraq, afghan
The middle of the officer structure however ! Had not very much ! And this is where I believe the problem ls or stems from

Hell, I've seen top gun like a dozen times - doesn't make me a f-14 pilot !

And it makes me sick !!!

Again I apologise for my aggressive response

Stay safe on the rigs

reply to post by Neocrusader

Your comments re standards of Officers really struck a chord,they had those types in my day too.

Usually the "Guards" type regiment candidates,you know,whose daddy owns half of Buckinghamshire and they;re only there for the sake of family tradition.Thankfully,the candidates from backgrounds that didn't involve living in a gothic pile with 50 bedrooms and a servant to wipe your ar*e on demand seemed to take it a touch more seriously.

I did meet a couple of newly commisioned Royal Marine officers recently who had just arrived at Condor as part of 45 commando. Quite honestly if I was a marine in the ranks and was saddled with either of them I would personally put a round through my foot to get away from it!

I think that the SAS, for example ,have it bang on, where that Regiment is run by the Senior NCO's, almost all of whom have had operational experience,or at the very least experience in dealing with other ranks on a day to day basis.
Personally I believe that all officers should spend a minimum of say 6 months associating with all ranks instead of being sequestered at Sandhurst for the duration of their training,would have helped me a lot.I can tell you!

Unfortunately,those assigned to the platoon of a career "Rupert" ,in it for themselves, usually end up paying in blood for their f**k ups.

Originally posted by Neocrusader
reply to post by nake13

 

The supporting troops although a brit unit were not Brits themselves ( bit of a clue there ) and I was both shocked and appaled at this - even more so when the unit has a very distinguished history and are widely considered as uber brave

Gurkhas cut and ran? My god. I wonder what was going on there. Why didn't they come back to support their comrades in arms? How could they run and not think twice about the team they left to die?

Edit: I read you saying it was probably a breakdown at a higher level. I still wonder how the people coordinating everything didn't direct the Gurkhas to come back?

reply to post by nake13


Gotta star that !
That's the sort yeah
The silver spoon eating, pimms drinking, horse riding, mummy AND daddy knowing type
( lol I have heard it said - the only difference between an enlisted man and an officer is that they know both their parents ) a statement that both made me chuckle and has stuck with me )

Something that's gonna bite in the ass is that these 'middle management' are the ones that guide and mentor the junior officers - so the problems of today may well pollute the 'middle management' of tomorrow
The middle management of today are going to be the top echelons of tomorrow
So this problem may persist for another 10 or even 20 years


This is something that the US has an advantage over ( possibly )
Their officers ( Admitadly not all ) did things like collage/high school football, lacrosse lol I even met one that was captain of the cheerleading squad and had scholarships on their sporting achievements
Which means they just have that something about them
Where as the Brits are more the captain of the chess team type
Yes I'm rather broad brushing here , but you get the picture

Even in the US Army orders are given that are counter logical to combat situations that is the fog of war.Most of the time US troops do what is necessary to complete the mission.Orders are .....guidelines when higher doesn't have eyes on the situation that is the "Fog OF War".However I do not even pretend to know how you Brits handle these little hic ups.If mine are under fire, I go fight, screw what any superior would say.You can't abandon your own even if you know they'll screw you for it.I couldn't live with myself otherwise.

reply to post by Mkoll


lol was just about to reply then saw your edit

I personally wasn't there and this event was told to me by one of the comrades of that sf team, so I'm not awaire of all the facts or exactly how it went down I only have his description of events and the general chatter at the remembrance parade
At no point did I hear blame directed or any unwarranted comments
And didn't probe for more info due to some frayed tempers - and it wasn't exactly the time or place

This is why I was reluctant to identify the unit
As I don't have all the facts - and probably could have worded that post better
So I'll also apologise to the Gurkhas for possibly painting them in a bad light

Part of the problem then that may have been a HUGE factor was the coms kit in use at the time and the use of zero ( HQ ) to relay messages between the different agencies and units involved
The SF with one type of kit ,operating on one net with one type of encryption
The supporting unit would have been using a different radio set up with possibly another type of encryption - or none at all ( old as the hills (?clansman? ) size of a house! )- meaning no decryption ability - so the sf had to keep switching to clear to talk to them - them encrypted to talk to zero
Then the helis on another kit - would - well should have been able to communicate with both - but they are not there to relay messages
Things are much better now

But you step into a HQ when something's going on ( especially multi national or unit )and it's absolute carnage with every Tom dick and Harry wanting in on what's going on