The Truth About the Garden of Eden Story

reply to post by SilentKoala
Fascinating stuff !but I have always wondered why the apple as the forbidden fruit?What is it about the apple in history that it's either poisoness or forbidden?has anyone ever attempted to explain this?Any ideas?

Another thing I don't understand with this story is why should we ever be ashamed of our nakedness if we are what God created?

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reply to post by dontreally


Thank you DontReally for that very concise and deep and accurate transcribing of what the popular jewish understanding of lilith is. I could not have written it better myself even with considerable more effort than i almost ever use on ATS.

Unfortunately, I DO NOT agree with the religious understanding of the bible. I agree with you were you jest about these accounts being mythos, however to a literal degree.

Lilith and Adam were made from the same 'primordial stuff' and therefore were EQUAL with eachother. Lilith did indeed not concede to Adam as God commanded. For this, She was banished to be a serpent and God made Eve from Adam's rib. Eve being OF Adam makes us a. all incestual if true, but that's a side note. The MAIN point is that Eve being of Adam means she has no possession over him. That Eve was made as something as trivial as Adam rib denotes this. That's why in the rest of the Bible women are hardly spoken of. This DOES NOT MAKE WOMEN INFERIOR TO MEN. Men NEED woman to complete themselves. It's quite intricite and I won't get into it, especially as it's off topic and opens up a can of # from ignorant people.

Anyway. When you talk about anything relating to the bible and its actual events, one HAS to have an understanding of the Ancient Alien theories. They go together hand in hand. It's hinted at all the KEY parts of the bible when God's speaks of himself in the plural.

reply to post by TWILITE22


The text doesn't actually say anything about an apple. It just says 'pri ha'etz' "fruit of the tree'.

Later commentators interpolated the kind of fruit it may have been; some said apple, others, fig,

reply to post by dontreally


Others said it was an olive, some people suggest it was actually a scroll; Enoch eats a scroll when he's taken away in a chariot of fire described as wheels within wheels within wheels. He states that it was sweet as honey and that upon eating it the wisdom of God filled him in his belly with the words he was supposed to speak upon the Israelites.

Some nuts believe that the Tree of Knowledge was a codex for the Tree of Life which is DNA. This codex taught to Adam and Eve that they were literally OF GOD, had alien DNA in them. Then they realized they were naked for their creators were clothed, covered, space suits, earthly garb w/e you want to call it.

Some call me a nut.... sometimes.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Jim Scott

 

The Jesus story is far too convenient.

Life just doesn't work that way. Considering it supposedly worked once, why hasn't it been repeated as a sort of purge system?

And nothing in this world happens once and is forever alright. The logic of Jesus' death is more bogus than the Hollow Earth theory.

...screw it. I can't explain everything that's wrong with the Bible to people who are more willing to be blindly blissful than knowledgeably fearful.

You're all screwed, because you choose to rely on someone other than yourself for help;. Keep blowing the whistle; you're hoping someone hears it, but what if they don't?

Of course, we rely on someone else daily. Farmers feed us. Gas stations provide energy for us. Etc. Life works that way every day. None of us are self-reliant.

Once you have experienced being rescued by God several times, your attitude changes about that sort of thing. It takes living awhile. Looking back, I definitely see where God carried me through many trials, often providing what I needed within the hour I needed it. Not just me, but family members in need testify of this, also.

I'm not sure what you think is wrong with the Bible. Only errors I have ever seen in the Bible have been inconsequential to it's central message. For example, if Goliath had a brother or not. Who cares? Not a factor in salvation.

Originally posted by TWILITE22
reply to post by SilentKoala

 

Fascinating stuff !but I have always wondered why the apple as the forbidden fruit?What is it about the apple in history that it's either poisoness or forbidden?has anyone ever attempted to explain this?Any ideas?

Another thing I don't understand with this story is why should we ever be ashamed of our nakedness if we are what God created?

.

edit on 21-5-2012 by TWILITE22 because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-5-2012 by TWILITE22 because: (no reason given)

There is nothing in the Bible that states that the forbidden fruit was an apple. The type of fruit is likely unimportant, because the issue was disobedience. God could have just as easily said they were not allowed to move a certain rock, or wash in a particular creek.

reply to post by Jim Scott


The fact that you think salvation comes from without, and not within. If there is one person who has complete control over your day-to-day life, who is it?

Not God. God isn't make your decisions for you.

I will agree that there is something you like to call "God", but the fact is...you don't even know what a god is. You don't have any true understanding of what makes a god. All you want is something to call God...and in return, you are provided for until your last breath.

Because we are all afraid of what lies beyond. We are all afraid of control, and not having it. If something else has complete control, and we have some modicum of control over how that being exercises it, then we feel safe.

That is half of the grand secret of religion. That is why we like religion. That's not why religion exists...that's the other half of the secret. The two halves work in tandem, feeding each other. It's a brilliant device, really. But regardless, that is why we adhere to it.

Originally posted by WhoKnows100
God told them "for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die."

Adam died when he was 930 years old.

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." 2 Peter 3:8

So, just where did God lie? He didn't. Adam and Eve were immortal to begin with.

The process of mortality began immediately. They began to die that day, as we do today. Notice the wording does not say that you will be dead on that day, but that you will surely die.

reply to post by Crabmeat

Unfortunately, I DO NOT agree with the religious understanding of the bible. I agree with you were you jest about these accounts being mythos, however to a literal degree.

Myth doesn't mean unimportant.

Myth,understood philosophically, simply refers to a level of reality that transcends mans capacity to refer directly: myth makes sense not in it's literal interpretation, but in it's dynamics; in it's indirect ability to reflect important and fundamental principles that underlie normal reality.

Not all myths are the same. It takes experience and knowledge of the culture to arrive at a sensible understanding of a particular myth.

Even if the bible were literal at a historical level, I would still insist that the more important layer of meaning is the mythical, or metaphysical.

This DOES NOT MAKE WOMEN INFERIOR TO MEN. Men NEED woman to complete themselves. It's quite intricite and I won't get into it, especially as it's off topic and opens up a can of # from ignorant people.

Of course. I never meant to imply that women are inferior to men. Adam, as a matter of textual fact, is androgynous: he is neither male or female, but both. Only after 'he' was put to sleep and another was needed (again, the Bible highlights the importance of RELATIONSHIP as the fundamental core reason for Creation) was Eve taken from his side (rib also means side in Hebrew) and Ishah (female) created. But she was created as an Ezer - a helper - which is to say, the concept of 'other' adds emphasis to the importance of relationship: the I and Thou relationship.

Men and Woman should both be entitled, in my opinion, to an equal stake in the world. However, I still think we should keep memory and regard for traditional values. It's not good to go too much in either way: to demand woman to stay home and mother children (the far right view) or to do away with gender roles altogether (the far left view, which I find far more pernicious). We should prefer a majority of each in their proper place, where nature has innately inclined them.

i skipped to the last page after scanning your OP/thread starter...so perhaps this point has been made already (i intend to read the intermediate pages 1-5 after i dump my thoughts here)


the Genesis 'God' was the same as the Exodus God... a God of and for the twelve tribes
everything you have pointed out was to reinforce the thinking & worldview of the Twelve Tribes...

that it is a live or die existence... and the 12 must stay a cohesive unit so they may conquer and support one another against the big-bad world of hell-bent men and rulers that have cultures outside of the 12 Tribes Laws

if you look at the information... the Ya, El, Eloheim, YHWH of the whole 12 tribes of Israelites practiced the act of 'Profiling' and stereotyping everyone not of the Israelite Tribes as sub-human...
the points & examples you made in the OP fall well in the gestalt that is almost unexplainable until One sees it, Genesis and the Books of the Torah is the gestalt for both the present day Jews and the other 'Lost' 10 tribes.

And it began with a demanding God that did not cut Adam & Eve any slack



~~~~~~now i will go read the thread, thank you~~~~~~

Originally posted by coyote66
[snip]How come he didn't get such a tree, with a very dangerous fruit of potentials, to be cut down? No, instead he did plant it with purpose in the middle of his garden! [snip]And does it count as incenst, if you bang your own ribb/chest bone?
Don't you think, god is overly dumbheaded, for a almighty creator? Smells like a setup, if you ask me.... The serpent and god were playing a trick on us, all the time, and we don't even had a clue! How about that???

The tree may have been in use by others not identified, or it may be that the tree was set up for a choice: love God and obey Him or love yourself and do what you want. Since God did not make us as robots, we have a choice. The choice is based on love, not on compulsion. Without a choice to love God by obedience, how would we show God we love Him? Hugs and kisses?

It's not incest. Incest was not a law until many generations later. At this point in human history, perfect bodies could reproduce without the ill effects of incest we have today. On the other hand, Cain was a murderer.

I would like to point out something else, also. God did not tell the woman, He only told the man. The man told the woman, and he overemphasized it by lying to her telling her that she would die if she only touched the fruit. Since the serpent was likely coiled around the fruit, touching it, and the woman saw that it was not apparently dying, she began to believe it was ok to eat/touch. The fault falls to Adam, who told a "white lie" to keep Eve away from the fruit.

reply to post by St Udio

The code for living introduced to the Hebrews was far superior to the savage laws that existed outside their realm in most places. While other tribes were sacrificing their babies on the red hot arms of Molech, the Hebrews were circumcizing. While other tribes were killing for punishment, Hebrews were reducing punishment to fit the crime, as in "eye for an eye". While other tribes were beastialists, Hebrews were purging them from their people. It's hard to imagine God being a bad guy in that world. In fact, He was purifying the Hebrews to be the carriers of His Word into the World....which today they continue to do. Where are the Hittities? The Amorites? The Romans? Only the Hebrews continue on throughout time and all eternity. Looking for truth? Might be smart to look where the best evidence for God exists. Historically, Jesus, for example, is the best authenticated historical written history in existence.

reply to post by Jim Scott


Actually, it says exactly that. For in the day you eat thereof...you shall surely die. In the day they eat the fruit, they would die.

However, one day is a thousand years to God...

I find it despicably irritating that "God" has a tendency to speak from HIS point of view, not bothering to rephrase for OUR understanding.

Who says "God" is a HE , anyway? I'd think something so omnipotent would have no gender at all. Androgynous. A perfect balance of all aspects both male and female.

reply to post by Jim Scott


The Tree of Knowledge, or the story of it, existed long before Christianity...

Constantine himself admitted that the Bible was, under his guidance, constructed from a montage of religious tales originating in all sorts of countries, many of which weren't the least bit Christian.

The goal? Spiritual unity. A lack of temptation to take each other to war for not having the same beliefs. Christianity was meant to be a MELDING of all faiths...and thereby eliminating at least ONE cause of war.

Unfortunately, he underestimated mankind's thirst for conflict. We have continued to hunt for reasons to kill one another...

Humans are fundamentally insane. Put two or more of us in a room together, and we'll start dreaming up ways to kill each other.

The most basic flaw was to set up a survivalist system. That is the system we live by now...and look where it's gotten us. At least religion made a point of teaching, "Share with your neighbor, and love him as you love yourself."

Now? Haha...not a damn chance.

Oh look! A revolutionary and new twist on the story of genesis. You must be such a free thinker

More Luciferian drivel plz.

in the gnostic scriptures Jesus explains to his disciples that it was him on the tree of knowledge in the form of an eagle and not a serpent who spoke to adam and eve and told them to eat the fruit.

The Apocryphon Of John

"And he (Adam) saw the woman beside him. And in that moment the luminous Epinoia appeared, and she lifted the veil which lay over his mind. And he became sober from the drunkenness of darkness. And he recognized his counter-image, and he said, 'This is indeed bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.' Therefore the man will leave his father and his mother, and he will cleave to his wife, and they will both be one flesh. For they will send him his consort, and he will leave his father and his mother ... (3 lines unreadable)

"And our sister Sophia (is) she who came down in innocence in order to rectify her deficiency. Therefore she was called Life, which is the mother of the living, by the foreknowledge of the sovereignty of heaven. And through her they have tasted the perfect Knowledge. I appeared in the form of an eagle on the tree of knowledge, which is the Epinoia from the foreknowledge of the pure light, that I might teach them and awaken them out of the depth of sleep. For they were both in a fallen state, and they recognized their nakedness. The Epinoia appeared to them as a light; she awakened their thinking.

"And when Yaltabaoth noticed that they withdrew from him, he cursed his earth. He found the woman as she was preparing herself for her husband. He was lord over her, though he did not know the mystery which had come to pass through the holy decree. And they were afraid to blame him. And he showed his angels his ignorance which is in him. And he cast them out of paradise and he clothed them in gloomy darkness. And the chief archon saw the virgin who stood by Adam, and that the luminous Epinoia of life had appeared in her. And Yaltabaoth was full of ignorance. And when the foreknowledge of the All noticed (it), she sent some and they snatched life out of Eve.

"And the chief archon seduced her and he begot in her two sons; the first and the second (are) Eloim and Yave. Eloim has a bear-face and Yave has a cat-face. The one is righteous but the other is unrighteous. (Yave is righteous but Eloim is unrighteous.) Yave he set over the fire and the wind, and Eloim he set over the water and the earth. And these he called with the names Cain and Abel with a view to deceive.

Originally posted by SonofLeod
reply to post by anoncoholic

 

This post is sickening and hypocritical, typical of most Christians. You say this mans version of this story is untrue because he was not there to know, yet you are bandying your "truth" about and shoving it down people's throats like yours is the only one... Broaden your mind...

Kool statement SonofLeod. If I knew how to give you stars etc I would (if that has any real meaning anyway as isn't it just that we are giving our opinions?). So many posters on here eg anonetc and bleeeep and a few others have done nothing but attack and try to misdirect from the OP. Good on ya OP for a magic post and again, big agreement with son of etc

Originally posted by steve1709

Originally posted by SonofLeod
reply to post by anoncoholic

 

This post is sickening and hypocritical, typical of most Christians. You say this mans version of this story is untrue because he was not there to know, yet you are bandying your "truth" about and shoving it down people's throats like yours is the only one... Broaden your mind...

Kool statement SonofLeod. If I knew how to give you stars etc I would (if that has any real meaning anyway as isn't it just that we are giving our opinions?). So many posters on here eg anonetc and bleeeep and a few others have done nothing but attack and try to misdirect from the OP. Good on ya OP for a magic post and again, big agreement with son of etc

If your idea of bringing truth and understanding to a conversation is an attack then perhaps truth is your enemy?

Its more like, when they were created, they only knew knowledge of good. They werent stupid animals as you say. By eating the apple, they disobeyed God, which gave them knowledge of sin, and separated them from God. Just as satan had wanted. Its not like they were magically given all knowledge, they just realized what sin was, and it started a chain reaction. Eating the apple did kill them, just not physically. It did bring death, until the death and resurrection of Christ, which broke that.

Anon, your idea of the truth is far far away from mine, I wont accept as truth some cult's dogma without proof but that said, I wont elaborate more as I would much prefer that this thread is KEPT ON TRACK ie connected to the original post. You and you band of believers are trying desperately to sneakily draw the discussion away from the ORIGINAL POST. God has been shown to be the LIAR in this narative and the DEVIL (for want of a better word) is DEFINITELY shown as the original poster has said, to be the protagonist. Whether the story is true or not is irrelevant, the concept here is that the story has a good guy and a bad guy (depending on what one thinks is good or bad) and taking as a LIAR as being bad, then "god" (why should there be a need for a capitalG for a bad guy?) is shown as the bad guy.