The Truth About the Garden of Eden Story

reply to post by HolgerTheDane2


I think you will find that the word punishment was never used by God in the original text of Genesis.

If you get a bike, you must ride it. It is that simple. Cause and effect.

Leaving the garden was not a punishment but a natural result of their actions.

Simply put, you are correct to a point, OP. Paine's study of the situation in the Garden leaves out one fundamental fact: disobedience. Whether the Serpent lied or God lied, strictly put, is surely an important point. However, the disobedience brought the curse of death, as God said. In other sections of the Bible a day is as a thousand years with God, which supports that Adam died in a day. Isn't it widely accepted that we are in the seventh day now? as creation was completed in 6 days, including the creation of Adam and Eve.

Very good discussion.

Unfortunately, it is hard to make out God to be the evil being here. He sent His Son to undo the damage done by Adam and Eve, and it hurt bad.

And, yes, Adam and Eve and all living things were transformed into dying beings at the sin of Adam. Hence, in the day he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he and she began to die.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by HolgerTheDane2

 

I think you will find that the word punishment was never used by God in the original text of Genesis.

If you get a bike, you must ride it. It is that simple. Cause and effect.

Leaving the garden was not a punishment but a natural result of their actions.

I think you will find that Genesis 3-24 says that
"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

"Drove out"
Since they didn't have a bike they couldn't ride and and the word drove is an action where you basically are "tossed out".

Originally posted by HolgerTheDane2

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by HolgerTheDane2

 

I think you will find that the word punishment was never used by God in the original text of Genesis.

If you get a bike, you must ride it. It is that simple. Cause and effect.

Leaving the garden was not a punishment but a natural result of their actions.

I think you will find that Genesis 3-24 says that
"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

"Drove out"
Since they didn't have a bike they couldn't ride and and the word drove is an action where you basically are "tossed out".

Interesting point, that He drove out the man. Could have been the first use of an automobile....not sure...what do you think? lol And what brand was that car?

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by SilentKoala

 

That is one of the best interpretations I have ever read.

I hope you will interpret the other stories as well. Jonah and the whale, Lot's wife, the burning of Sodom, Jesus's crucifixion, and all of the others. I would be sincerely interested to hear what you have to say one those subjects.

You have brought illumination to us, and I deeply thank you for it.

illumination or darkness in spirit?

Because you put your Faith in man and mans word rather than God and His word you see wisdom in man and God doesn't see or hear you either.

reply to post by Jim Scott


The Jesus story is far too convenient.

Life just doesn't work that way. Considering it supposedly worked once, why hasn't it been repeated as a sort of purge system?

And nothing in this world happens once and is forever alright. The logic of Jesus' death is more bogus than the Hollow Earth theory.

...screw it. I can't explain everything that's wrong with the Bible to people who are more willing to be blindly blissful than knowledgeably fearful.

You're all screwed, because you choose to rely on someone other than yourself for help;. Keep blowing the whistle; you're hoping someone hears it, but what if they don't?

reply to post by SilentKoala

Adam and Eve had no more self-awareness than animals, until after they eat the Fruit.

I didn't really read your whole thread, so forgive me if you already went into this.

Self-awareness would indicate the ability of an entity to be aware of ones self. It would indicate sentient consciousness, which would indicate that entity has the ability to make conscious choices.

Now... if Adam and Eve were not self-aware before eating the fruit, this would indicate they couldn't make conscious decisions. Everything they did was with the mentality of an animal according to this.

So if God told these animals not to eat the fruit, that means he was essentially ordering unconscious beings with no ability to make conscious choices (aka no free will) to not eat the fruit...

Yet apparently they make a conscious choice to eat the fruit. They exhibited signs of free will by making that choice against Gods orders, and they were punished by God as if they were responsible for making that conscious decision.

It is impossible for an entity who has no self-awareness to exhibit signs of free will. So going along with this simple line of logic and reason, one would assume that Adam and Eve had self awareness before eating the fruit.

So where am I going with all this? I have no freaking idea... why don't you tell me.

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by racasan

 

Nah man. That's not at all what I said or meant in any way. Is there a particular part of my response that you're having trouble with? I can try to help you if you tell me which part you got lost at.

Oh ok - well please have another go at explaining what you meant

oh and btw. you misinterpreted the genesis verse too.

edit on 21-5-2012 by Bleeeeep because: typos

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made

So what bit did I get wrong?
The text says:
it was a serpent
it was the most cunning >beast< in the field
god made it

nothing in the text to say it was remote controlled or something/someone else in disguise

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Jim Scott

 

The Jesus story is far too convenient.

Life just doesn't work that way. Considering it supposedly worked once, why hasn't it been repeated as a sort of purge system?

And nothing in this world happens once and is forever alright. The logic of Jesus' death is more bogus than the Hollow Earth theory.

...screw it. I can't explain everything that's wrong with the Bible to people who are more willing to be blindly blissful than knowledgeably fearful.

You're all screwed, because you choose to rely on someone other than yourself for help;. Keep blowing the whistle; you're hoping someone hears it, but what if they don't?

so nothing profound happened to make us start counting days?

This "purge" of which you seek is written about in the Book of Revelation.

Doesn't matter whether you believe in truth or not, what matters is that truth will always remain the truth and not what others "think" it is.

No friend, it has nothing to do with those of Faith being "screwed" but that evil has had its season and the judgment in wrath upon those whom still don't get it after millennium are the ones being "screwed".

It is sad that so few fully comprehend the righteous path with harmony and unity and rather they insist that division is the way.

Mankind falling from Grace is the story of Adam and Eve, not the story of devilish realization. The devil is a minor irritation but served its purpose. God has always held dominion over creation, not the evil that rules it thus far.

Had man followed God alone and not been swayed by fallen ones then mankind wouldn't even have invented bullets whose only purpose is to kill.

Thou shall not kill doesn't mean without good reason... what I do to you I do to myself because it is only one of two directions, positive or negative. You can deny the positive and declare the negative to be your righteous conviction, that is what free-will is all about because rather than force any into following, God wants devotion out of love, not necessity.

If you think it is to follow out of fear then ask where that fear came from? Is it of God "our Father" or is it of satan the nemesis to God?

I do not fear neither the wrath of God nor the evil satan has gripped this world in. I have Faith this is all as it was meant to be... that is the wisdom of the Lord who tells us the end from the beginning.

The birth pangs are signalling deliverance draws nigh...

reply to post by anoncoholic


And all of your proof comes from a book.

My proof comes from a book too. And you know what, I can go out any day of the week and prove everything in that book.

You can't. Every Christian admits that it is FAITH. Not FACT. Faith. Faith requires no fact, only a willingness to believe whatever you are told.

If I had been meant for such a redundant, unproductive fate, I would not have any free will.

The time of superstition has passed. We no longer need fairytales to convince us to behave.

If god really is, as he is represented by the religous community, he would be a psychopath.

Either the interpretation is wrong, or the scriptures are lies, or he is the most ego driven being of the past few thousand years!

reply to post by eccentriclady


Any of which is a perfectly valid reason to reject Christianity.

The faith has served its purpose of preserving us for the couple thousand years of possible extinction.

It's time to let a new system arise.

reply to post by CodyOutlaw

Originally posted by SilentKoala
Adam and Eve eat the fruit. Suddenly, they become aware of their nakedness. Think about that. Adam and Eve had no more self-awareness than animals, until after they eat the Fruit.

He knows its his opinion and yet he writes it as if it is a fact to lead people into his premise.

Originally posted by SilentKoala
They did not know they could use their minds to survive and flourish. They did not know they were sapient beings.

Same as before. He knows its his opinion and yet he writes it as a fact to lead people into his premise.



Now, do you believe that the naked of the bible actually means "‘They did not know they were clever’." Do you believe that the op even believes this? Of course not. It's ridiculous.

Now I hope you and that other guy can understand what I was saying to op. I wasn't debating his premise as much as I was his topic creation and topic material, because I feel that the op doesn't even believe the majority of what he has written. Which is what lead me to ask why he wrote it if he didn't believe it.

If you still do not understand me then I concede.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by anoncoholic

 

And all of your proof comes from a book.

My proof comes from a book too. And you know what, I can go out any day of the week and prove everything in that book.

You can't. Every Christian admits that it is FAITH. Not FACT. Faith. Faith requires no fact, only a willingness to believe whatever you are told.

If I had been meant for such a redundant, unproductive fate, I would not have any free will.

The time of superstition has passed. We no longer need fairytales to convince us to behave.

Hardly. My Faith comes from my relationship with God and having the Love of Jesus in my heart... a love that is open to all, not just those who agree.

You seem to think I gain my insights from a single source and it is understandable when my view mirrors a single source... yet you know nothing of me, my background, my experiences, my motivations, my teachings or leanings.

How you can so quickly dismiss the answer for suppositions based on limited understanding is not only beyond the pale, but it inevitably will lead to your downfall as a potentially loving spirit.

You seem to think I am based on Faith not fact and that is because you are incapable of manifesting Faith which makes it a fact based in reality and not bred of a delusional fairy tale you seem to want to paint those of us who follow God as a piece of work rather than a masterpiece of creation.

... some of us are living up to our full potentials.

reply to post by racasan


The verse says that it was more cunning than any beast that he had made. Meaning something is different about that particular snake.

I answered the other guy but the response applies directly to you since it answers the question you asked me in another way. See if you can understand this answer.

eta: To add a little more on the snake clarification. If the snake was more cunning than a snake that God had made then it has to be a snake that God didn't make otherwise it cannot be a snake more cunning because God has made it. Hope that helps.

I find your interpretation of the Genesis story interesting OP. As a yourht I was raised Catholic. As an adult, I opened my mind to other knowledge. Considering that humans have been on Earth for Millions of years, I'm not sure how anyone can put their complete faith in ANY one book or collection of writings. Although there is wisdom in the bible, I'm as interested in what was in the books that were burned when the Bible was "written", and why those texts were not included...

reply to post by anoncoholic

There is no level of awareness where the being is absolutely sure they aren't deluding themselves. You are operating on pure faith, just as every pure atheistic materialist is operating on pure faith despite their intense self deception otherwise.

Even that which knows all that is knowable can't know for sure there is something it doesn't know.

Every fact is just a more consistent piece of faith that works for the current moment and environment.

There is only one fact: We don't, and can't know anything for sure forever. Therefore all that matters is what we choose to do right in this moment while fully manifesting the fact that we don't and can't ever "know" for sure.

Namaste.

But its a paradox there, when normaly, a liar is likely to be smart person, aswell.

But in this story, god doesn't seem to be smart at all. You can even compare his (assuming, god to be a mysogynist, he is likely a dude) intelectual quotient, with a cow, for example...

How come he didn't get such a tree, with a very dangerous fruit of potentials, to be cut down? No, instead he did plant it with purpose in the middle of his garden! And how come a limbless animal could beat the wit of the other bipedal primates?!?

Don't you think its massively ridiculous? And does it count as incenst, if you bang your own ribb/chest bone?

Don't you think, god is overly dumbheaded, for a almighty creator? Smells like a setup, if you ask me.... The serpent and god were playing a trick on us, all the time, and we don't even had a clue! How about that???

Originally posted by WisdomSeeker
I find your interpretation of the Genesis story interesting OP. As a yourht I was raised Catholic. As an adult, I opened my mind to other knowledge. Considering that humans have been on Earth for Millions of years, I'm not sure how anyone can put their complete faith in ANY one book or collection of writings. Although there is wisdom in the bible, I'm as interested in what was in the books that were burned when the Bible was "written", and why those texts were not included...

Perhaps you should look into how as you put it "millions of years" had given us so few inhabitants of this current civilization. We were replenishing the earth (and mingled with bad seed) until God brought the flood as judgment upon the evil leanings that mankind had embarked.

Perhaps John 6:66 will shed some light as to the forming of differing Religions... Religions based on partial teachings not the entire message... perhaps you should get a copy of this book...

www.amazon.com...

which only points out the positive inspiration behind them all rather than the negativity associated with differing views.

Yes man is capable of maintaining a lie and supposed truth by burning libraries like the one in Alexandria... books written of past (come and gone) civilizations.

The Bible is a record of this current civilization alone but does hint at prior civilizations.

We are Blessed to be witness in an age of enlightenment where truth will become self-evident. Hold on to interpretations proffered by man for man rather than seek the wisdom within your very being.

I would consider your short-changing yourself bad enough but to sway others to your mindset borders on a dogma of bias rather than a guidance of inspiration.

There is nothing that you can say that can remove God from the picture, no matter how dark a color you all are so want to paint this picture of creation. Maintaining a static viewpoint of time rather than acknowledge a linear progression of understanding the purpose of God and how it is a threat to the evil that seeks to stand alone (until it falls) is nothing but tunnel vision and cherry-picking meanings that you are still incapable of comprehending short of divine intervention which when it does manifest for all to see will be too late for those who rejected it all along.

Originally posted by coyote66
But its a paradox there, when normaly, a liar is likely to be smart person, aswell.

But in this story, god doesn't seem to be smart at all. You can even compare his (assuming, god to be a mysogynist, he is likely a dude) intelectual quotient, with a cow, for example...

How come he didn't get such a tree, with a very dangerous fruit of potentials, to be cut down? No, instead he did plant it with purpose in the middle of his garden! And how come a limbless animal could beat the wit of the other bipedal primates?!?

Don't you think its massively ridiculous? And does it count as incenst, if you bang your own ribb/chest bone?

Don't you think, god is overly dumbheaded, for a almighty creator? Smells like a setup, if you ask me.... The serpent and god were playing a trick on us, all the time, and we don't even had a clue! How about that???

family tree. How about them apples?

It is written that God blinds some to meaning and for a purpose. God uses even the evil person to further understanding.
It is like the two witnesses and how so many are "waiting" and yet who is to say that the two aren't already witnessing in Jerusalem but not yet physically in the flesh? When the web is taken down (and it will be due to the ability of men to spread truth) they will be there in the flesh...

www.aish.com...

Do not think that because you have some knowledge that you know all there is to know about the unknown otherwise you might be fooled into thinking adversely