The Truth About the Garden of Eden Story

Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion
reply to post by anoncoholic

 

There is no level of awareness where the being is absolutely sure they aren't deluding themselves. You are operating on pure faith, just as every pure atheistic materialist is operating on pure faith despite their intense self deception otherwise.

Even that which knows all that is knowable can't know for sure there is something it doesn't know.

Every fact is just a more consistent piece of faith that works for the current moment and environment.

There is only one fact: We don't, and can't know anything for sure forever. Therefore all that matters is what we choose to do right in this moment while fully manifesting the fact that we don't and can't ever "know" for sure.

Namaste.

edit on 2012/5/21 by ErgoTheConfusion because: (no reason given)

You do not "know" for sure because you refuse to apply a conviction of Faith in your daily life.As one of Faith I Pray and see that manifestation of Faith in answered Prayer.

Yeah, parlor tricks are more to the likings of some but then comprehend that to "prove" would be to rob you of "your" Blessing.

"Blessed are those who believe yet have not seen..."

Some of us both believe and have seen. Once seen there is no denying the supernatural aspect of God that isn't evidenced to the non-believer.

Originally posted by racasan

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by racasan

 

Nah man. That's not at all what I said or meant in any way. Is there a particular part of my response that you're having trouble with? I can try to help you if you tell me which part you got lost at.

Oh ok - well please have another go at explaining what you meant

oh and btw. you misinterpreted the genesis verse too.

edit on 21-5-2012 by Bleeeeep because: typos

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made

So what bit did I get wrong?
The text says:
it was a serpent
it was the most cunning >beast< in the field
god made it

nothing in the text to say it was remote controlled or something/someone else in disguise

You confuse the creation of Adam and Eve with the appointing to high places of the angels (Lucifer was high at one time until he was cast down with those who rebelled)

As an angel Lucifer, Satan, the devil, whichever name you attribute to it is still an angel with supernatural powers "on earth" yet has no powers in Heaven and God will be judging ALL inhabitants of the earth.

Moot point as the book of Life is closing on man and his iniquities. Time will tell who speaks absolute truth.

"Time is precious, but TRUTH is more precious than time."

God told them "for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die."

Adam died when he was 930 years old.

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." 2 Peter 3:8

So, just where did God lie? He didn't. Adam and Eve were immortal to begin with.

reply to post by SilentKoala

So, rather than bringing humanity's death, eating the Fruit made Adam and Eve "like gods" just as the Serpent said, and not only that, it opened the way to immortality for them. And so, to prevent humans from completing their ascent to divinity (it was a Rise in the Garden, not a Fall), God responds with what would soon become his old stand-by: violence.

1. They would be like 'gods' in knowing good and evil.
2. He then cut them off to the tree of life, thereby blocking thei ability to remain 'immortal'. Why?
3. Matthew 18:3 "And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Psalm 131:2 "But I have stilled and quieted my soul; like a weaned child with its mother, like a weaned child is my soul within me."
4. It was the fall of man.

reply to post by Bleeeeep


Thank you for the answer - I do understand what you were saying to the OP now

If I may answer?

They key to this interpretation lies in the actual hebrew word "arom."
The Torah can be read a number of ways, and certain words being repeated over and over in a short story tend to mean another layer to the story within Judaism.

So, in this story, "arom" is repeated far too many times. One meaning for arom is "naked."
Another meaning for "arom" is "cunning."
When you read the story in hebrew, you find that the nakedness of Adam and Eve, and the cunning of the serpent, are both described using the word "arom."

So what have we here?

reply to post by SilentKoala


So whats makes this truth? I'm confused if its faith or fact that compells your post???

Any better sources?

reply to post by SilentKoala


I'm a long time ATS reader and independent UFO reasearcher and conspiracy collector, but I really don't care about any of that stuff. However things pretaining to spirituality's current state on this planet does matter to me dearly and what you've brought to everyones attention with your well thought out theory is very bright.

Yet, an idea was over looked by you.

The SNAKE is GOD. The passage that the serpent was unlike any of the gardens animals is a hint to this fact. The notion that it could speak in an intelligent language to Eve is also a hint to this fact.

God, or aliens, whatever which created us, wanted to test us. We matured and made our own independent choice due to the snakes information taking our first steps into adulthood as a race.

Creation was complete. We left the nest.

Given that the bible was written no later than 2000 years ago and that its internal "timeline" suggests it cannot have been written earlier than about 8000 years ago then the only person on this planet capable of knowing the "truth" is somebody who was there at the time and thus between 2000 and 8000 years old.

If you are not this age than the "truth" is merely your subjective interpretation. Which means the title should be :

"Yet another guess" about the Garden of Eden Story.

Sorry and goodnight.

Originally posted by Crabmeat

Creation was complete. We left the nest.

edit on 21-5-2012 by Crabmeat because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-5-2012 by Crabmeat because: (no reason given)

Nest? No. We left (kicked out of actually) sanctuary opting for the pit of vipers. Creation wasn't completed (since God left us to find our paths alone and without finding that Faith in Him will continue to be less than we are intended) until we learned the lesson behind righteousness and evil. Blame God for abandoning us but the truth is we rejected God and His mentor-ship and chose the devil and its quest to bring mankind down.

Only the delusion that we are on top of our game is what is keeping us from Grace. Without God we are as the devil intended, lost and confused.

reply to post by anoncoholic


This post is sickening and hypocritical, typical of most Christians. You say this mans version of this story is untrue because he was not there to know, yet you are bandying your "truth" about and shoving it down people's throats like yours is the only one... Broaden your mind...

reply to post by SilentKoala


I just want to know how two fully formed, intelligent human beings took care of themselves back then. Did either of them shave? Bathe? Did they have deodorant? What did their breath smell like? Where did they poop and pee in the Garden of Eden? What did they use to wipe themselves? How did they clip their finger and toe nails? Seriously, I want to know.

reply to post by SilentKoala


So, you're essentially arguing that the God of Genesis (or is it God, generically?) is an evil God? Judging by your eloquence, I take it you are well read, which means, this philosophical interpretation of yours must be couched in the traditional gnostic (really, pagan) premise that the field of reality we call this world, is an illusion, devised by what Plato coined the 'demiurge' (But Plato spoke much less disparagingly of it than the Gnostic's), and the Gnostics mythologized as Ialdabaoth - a figure cognate to the Lord of the Bible and Judeo-Christian tradition, יהוה, or "Jehova" (excusing the fact that the Yod produces a 'Y' sound, and not the latin J....Here's a possible theory for why this hard-headed culture replaces the soft Yod with a Hard J: instead of perceiving the spirituality and intent in the creation of the world of appearance, they see it as a jail which arrests all motion, hardens consciousness, and ultimately enslaves the unconditioned 'essence' to the rigid realm of form).

In Philosophical terms, you can essentially put all ideologies on one side and the Jews on the other. That is in essence the stark contrast of how divided things become when you break it down like this.

Said differently, it's the difference between seeing God as a personal Creator, and therefore, a Being with intention and purpose for each of his creatures, in particular, that creature made in his form, man, verses a completely impersonal God, a metaphysical 'fact' or state which the human individual seeks to come into complete identification with; It's the difference between finding meaning and purpose in time, the subject-object relationship, verses finding meaning and value in eternity, elimination of distinctions (and thus, an absolute moral standard) conflation of all beings with one over-arching principle which drowns all qualitative differences.

This is why Modern science can truly be seen to be in cahoots with traditionally eastern metaphysical thinking, as well as Sufism and Gnosticism. Both sides seek to depersonalize the world, eviscerating it of what is in essence it's most imminent aspect, that part of it which makes man truly man, as opposed to some 'thing' to be conditioned: the personal.

This is an argument that comes up time and again at this site. And there's no effective rejoinder. You guys are emotionally groomed in your ways and no attempt at convincing you on logical grounds will work.



As for the post itself, you have wayyyyyy oversimplified it.

First, I hope you realize that this is a REinterpretation of the traditional exegetical interpretation of the text. There's no way on earth that the writers of Pentateuch wished to convey an image of God as the bad guy against a wily serpent which is in truth the good guy.

The original, and more anterior interpretation would have to accord with the overall spirit of the book of Genesis and the penteateuch taken as a whole.

The Bible emphasizes the importance of TIME, PATERNITY and MEMORY: these are things which the Bible seeks to impress on the mind of the reader. The snake, or Nachash, is not simply the 'charmer', or some archetype for magic or technology, but more fundamentally, the snake is the ability to REASON (it's also interesting to note that the gematria, or numerological value of Nachash is the same as Moshiach/Messiah, alluding to some fundamental connection between the power to discriminate and salvation).

The failure of Adam and Eve was believing that the fruit of the tree of knowledge suffices by itself to make man as God: If that were true, WHY did God (tetragrammaton) eject them from the garden? If God is merely some miscreant with no real power, then how was He able to demote the snake to a creature which crawls on it's belly (that is, the power of reason being relegated to matter) and eject Adam and Eve from their Edenic paradise? The text obviously seeks to instruct us that reason by itself will never suffice to mend that chasm separating man and God: God remains God, and man, unless he tempers his reason by following moral truths which transcend his finite powers of cognition (I.E obeying his conscience) will end up condemning himself and his progeny to personal and societal dysfunction.

reply to post by anoncoholic


Agree to disagree?

It's a pretty commonly known concept in jewish oral tradition that the last part of man's creation was the granting of freewill. God told Adam and Eve that they'd DIE if they ate from the tree. Yet they did, and not only did they not die, God, whose smitten many people in later stories, didn't smite either of them. Instead he just kicked them out of the 'house'. A slap on the ass if you will. As for the 'pit of vipers' God sends them off into, what is the world outside the sanctuary of mommy and daddy's home if not a pit of vipers? Hmmmm?


Also, for such a commanding thread title, why isn't Lilith mentioned once? The Woman God made before Eve?

Eve was created from the rib of Adam after Lilith mutinied and was punished by losing her limbs and growing scales, and some other things which every jew knows is a description of a serpent.

Originally posted by SonofLeod
reply to post by anoncoholic

 

This post is sickening and hypocritical, typical of most Christians. You say this mans version of this story is untrue because he was not there to know, yet you are bandying your "truth" about and shoving it down people's throats like yours is the only one... Broaden your mind...

maybe so. Even the two witnesses will speak with words that burns the minds of those who refuse to see truth.

You claim I am pushing it down peoples throats? I would LOL if it wasn't so slanderous... this thread wasn't started by me so who then is pushing anything?

I was commenting and if it hurts your eyes to read or your feelings to understand, that is your problem to cope with ( by not reading)

The hypocrisy is in only wanting to read one side of an argument... and in your ignorance you ask me to broaden my mind?

reply to post by Crabmeat

Also, for such a commanding thread title, why isn't Lilith mentioned once? The Woman God made before Eve?

Lilith certainly would add another interesting element to his story.

According to Rabbinic legend (and it should be understood this is all philosophy dressed up as myth) Lilith was created from the same primordial substance - Clay - as Adam. Philosophically read, this means that unlike Eve, who was posterior to Adam's creation (and thus contingent on Adam, inasmuch as she is physically derived from him) Lilith came forth with Adam. Hence, she is said to have refused to be under him during copulation.

In traditional metaphysical thought, Adam symbolizes the principle while Eve it's manifestation. With Lillith, principle and manifestation are obviated: both are considered equally relevant, or, equally irrelevant; and from the vantage point of the Absolute, both ARE equal in every way - to make a distinction would be to leave the vantage point of the absolute (non-conditioned) and see things from the perspective of Creation/Conditionality. Thus, Adam and Lilith are Cause and Effect, Yin and Yang, in embryo: within the womb of the abyss, you could say.

Traditional social norms are based on the ancient philosophical interpretation of nature's dynamic's as being fundamentally composed of two qualities, the masculine and the feminine. The masculine is associated with causation and the feminine with it's effects. The "principle" or abstract, was seen as the domain of the masculine, while it's manifestation and appearance, as feminine. So, nature was considered feminine while the sky, which encompasses nature, as a concept can be seen to encompass it's manifestation, was the 'father'. This same structure is visible everywhere. A woman's head generally reaches the chest region of the man; since the female principle is derived from the male principle, her consciousness, which reaches the chest region of the male, is more 'emotional' and thus vital, in character. Whereas the man, being less constrained by emotional constraints (constraints undoubtedly associated with a woman's menstruation, which again happens to be correlated with the movements of the moon) is more abstract and (in the more developed) philosophically oriented.

In human society this dynamic has up until modern time been duly imitated: the man leaves the home (a symbol for the abode of nature) and gathers sustenance for the family in the "beyond"; whereas his wife stays home honing and developing their little corner of creation: raising children, maintenance of the house and other traditional 'homely' duties.

Thus, contrary to how it's usually been cast, traditional norms are quite spiritually incisive in their formulation. Conversely, Lilith could be seen as the patron saint of modernity: she is ANTI-traditional, anti-distinction, and even anti-morality. She is against memory - she tells men "forget about the past", as we have been tricked to believe is important: she refuses any connection with the "past" (i.e refuses relationship with an anterior reality): she's all about spontaneity, the power of NOW (and thus connecting her to eternity) and relativizing values based on traditional principles: i.e. gay rights, right to abortion, etc... All with the final aim of establishing a society on earth that reflects less Judeo-Christian values (worshipers of the God of Creation, the God vilified by the OP) and more Eastern values which emphasize the essentially impersonal nature of man's place in this world.

It was Plato who suggested that the family interfered with the unity of the polis, and that ultimately, the only way to insure peace between individuals would be to have the state raise children in state homes, eliminating the 'competition' created by filial family unity composed of father/mother/son/daughter. Encouraging gay marriage seems to be a natural catalyst to the eventual elimination of the traditional family construct, built as it is on traditional metaphysics. Is this the hidden intent behind the sensationalizing of gay marriage? Making it a huge 'moral issue' of our time? I believe it is.

The traditional family simply cannot subsist without it's basic ingredients of Masculine-Feminine. You want to get rid of that, expect for the entire concept of a family unit to be done away with a few generations later.

Originally posted by anoncoholic
You do not "know" for sure because you refuse to apply a conviction of Faith in your daily life.As one of Faith I Pray and see that manifestation of Faith in answered Prayer.

Yeah, parlor tricks are more to the likings of some but then comprehend that to "prove" would be to rob you of "your" Blessing.

"Blessed are those who believe yet have not seen..."

Some of us both believe and have seen. Once seen there is no denying the supernatural aspect of God that isn't evidenced to the non-believer.

You are misunderstanding. Notice I was ascribing faith equally to believers and non-believers. Both are using the same logical and emotional reasoning to reach their conclusions, just different foundations and pieces of information (and more importantly *lack* of information) to build their world view with.

There is still that which God does not, and can not, know. It can never truly know if it knows everything... therefore there is always that lingering honesty required that "I might be working with incomplete information".

This has nothing to do with understanding the "supernatural" capacity for God/Tao/Infinity/The Universe... that much is obvious by the very fact we are here talking about it at all. This event of us speaking is supernatural itself if we stop to reflect on it.

That is not the same thing as realizing and truly accepting that we don't and can't ever actually know. You believe and have seen. As have I. But we have no capacity... no matter how hard we try to truly *know*... that this isn't simply an impossible to penetrate delusion. We can't know, but that is actually the point of true liberation and partnership with God/Tao/Infinity/The Universe because we are sharing in the same "problem" of existence. The problem of knowing one thing: That I exist... and nothing more.

You don't know if you are the only awareness in the universe and all others are simply puppets you taught yourself to forget you control. You don't know if every awareness experience is identical to yours... just from a different vantage point. You don't know if every awareness is fundamentally different and literally sees and experiences the same thing differently from you, and the only thing we share is a common language to describe totally different experiences.

You don't know if you are God alone and are pretending to just be a person on a forum for fun... or out of depression... or out of love... or anything else. All you know is what YOU feel right now... and thus all anyone can do is respond to those feelings... but it is *always* left with a lingering hole.

Everything begins and ends in mystery. Even for God/Tao/Infinity/The Universe. The difference is we've managed to build a culture that is very clever at tricking us into confusing "knowing" vs "faith built upon a solid foundation". The two are not the same... a solid foundation can still eventually crumble leaving the faith to need to be adjusted. If our "knowing" ever needs to be adjusted... we didn't actually know. Thus... can we ever truly conclude we know? No... because we can't know with absolute certainty that there will never be an additional piece of information that will require us to adjust our world view.

We can only live according to the information and tools we have and I'll be surprised if you don't admit that you don't have all the information and tools that are truly possible.

Trust me... I "know" the same thing you do, though I use different metaphors to describe it. The difference in what we're offering each other from my perspective is I've taken this to its logical conclusion and found out what's at the end of that rainbow. It's beautiful... but many people walk away because of the impact it has on their "belief system" that got them to this point of knowing.

Knowing everything includes knowing there are things you can't know. This is true at all levels of magnification of God/Tao/Infinity/The Universe. This is what it means to be truly infinite, as God is.

Namaste.

Sorry.......yawn...............

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by jiggerj


Great! And why a most if not all (I haven't seen them all) pictures / paintings of Adam and Eve depicted as having belly buttons............Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???

"They say God"
"I say Aliens"
"Let's call the whole thing off........."

Originally posted by Crabmeat
reply to post by anoncoholic

 

Agree to disagree?

It's a pretty commonly known concept in jewish oral tradition that the last part of man's creation was the granting of freewill. God told Adam and Eve that they'd DIE if they ate from the tree. Yet they did, and not only did they not die, God, whose smitten many people in later stories, didn't smite either of them. Instead he just kicked them out of the 'house'. A slap on the ass if you will. As for the 'pit of vipers' God sends them off into, what is the world outside the sanctuary of mommy and daddy's home if not a pit of vipers? Hmmmm?


Also, for such a commanding thread title, why isn't Lilith mentioned once? The Woman God made before Eve?

Eve was created from the rib of Adam after Lilith mutinied and was punished by losing her limbs and growing scales, and some other things which every jew knows is a description of a serpent.

edit on 21-5-2012 by Crabmeat because: (no reason given)

The Book of Revelation and particularly the seven letters to the seven churches all but spells out where the Churches stand in the eyes of God.

Of note is the letter to the church of Smyrna (Rev 2: 8 - 10) and recognize that only one Faith has a synagogue.

That isn't to say that all Jews are so judged, but that judgment as spelled out. In verse 10 is the promise of salvation for those of the church of Smyrna.

As far as Lillith goes, perhaps we can decide on which texts we are discussing as my KJV makes no mention of the name and if we are talking about creation we really should all be using the same history to discern truth from. Perhaps we should be using the Judaic rather than the Christian but then again, it wasn't the Christians who murdered Christ... ( even by proxy carries the guilt on ones hands btw) This is why the Jews still deny Christ as the Messiah... he didn't fit their idea of purity and when the money-changers were thrown out of the temple Jesus put himself against all that they worship, the money. Again, the Letter spells it out quite clearly where it states that they are poor but rich. (paraphrased)

And again, in answer to why God didn't just kill Adam and Eve outright... where would man be without a starting point? Non-existent which is the path the devil seeks to lead all to. It was by the Grace of God that He still allowed us to live and learn.

Repeatedly throughout the Bible God has corrected the path and yet we continue to disappoint Him in our ways.

It is always easier to blame another, even God Himself than to face up to our lack of Faith in Him.

The pit of vipers was analogous of the evil we embraced. If you deny that there was evil simply look around at the world we live in and think about where we would have been had we lived as God intended and not instead lived as a bastardized creation (which God in all His mercy still allowed us to grow until we come to realization - the falling away will be the end.)

reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion


you choose to play a game of semantics and yet how can you reconcile in your logic that non-believers even have Faith? Perhaps unto themselves but that isn't Faith, that is being self-righteous in rejecting God because they see themselves as the omnipotent.

We are at the proverbial crossroads and while our paths lead in different directions, we still exchange the signals of communication but to what end? Do I speak here for myself? For you? or do I speak on behalf of one whom I Love and owe my very life to (albeit generations removed from the obligation but the Spirit of the Lord is eternal and hence our debt to Christ is as yet unpaid until that time when we will all be judged.Personally, I know the sins in my life and by bringing understanding to others I in some small measure try to pay back what I can while I can)

I think people should instead of trying to understand the why of it, instead ask the when of it and see the truth behind why God still waits before passing judgment upon man. The reason should be simple enough to understand... God is waiting for a particular event to grant as many as possible the gift of life. AT any time God could have drawn that line where all who would come to Him will and those who won't never would.

That event is forthcoming and all will know when it happens...