9/11: The WTC Elevator Key

reply to post by vkey08

you missed my question and what I wrote then.. If an entire floor comes crashing down on the floor below it...then that would cause a cascade reaction and topple the building, every single simulation that was run for LaP (History Channel) showed that. I am not saying that a bomb didn't' cause it... just could that have happened? I thought also I asked for no attitude in an answer I am just curious about a few details... it didn't warrant an attack..

I had the same questions when I first started reading on ATS. It does sound like it could happen, but then you start reading and watching witness testimony together with footage of the buildings going down symmetrically more or less, and the portion of undamaged building compared to the portion above the impact zone.

I would believe the jet fuel and impact damage if some of the building would be destroyed, but all the way to the ground, and 3 of them?

Hard to believe, for me at least.

As for the attitude.. everyone is an expert on ATS, and it gets stupid.

reply to post by maxella1


Its not hard to believe when you look at DYNAMIC loads.



I have asked a few truthers to catch a heavy object they have no problem holding in their hands say 25 -50 lbs after its been dropped 12ft the height of a WTC floor no takers so far I wonder why!

The other problem was the floors were fixed to angle cleats on the inside of the walls so they could drop down if enough connections failed!

Originally posted by vkey08
reply to post by ANOK

 

you missed my question and what I wrote then.. If an entire floor comes crashing down on the floor below it...then that would cause a cascade reaction and topple the building, every single simulation that was run for LaP (History Channel) showed that.

Not necessarily, and not likely, in a steel framed structure.

Simulations are only as good as the input.

I am not saying that a bomb didn't' cause it... just could that have happened? I thought also I asked for no attitude in an answer I am just curious about a few details... it didn't warrant an attack...

Attack? What attack?

I was just giving my opinion, and explaining why I believe what I said.

I'm not saying a bomb did cause it.

All I am saying is steel does not act the way a lot of people want to assume.

But the main problem is that if two floors impacted the forces on both floors would be the same, equal opposite reaction, and both floors would be damaged. When the floors are damaged it reduces the Ke as energy is needed to do the damage, and would also be lost to sound and heat. Each floors impact would reduce the Ke, and the resistance would slow and eventually stop the collapse.

For the collapse to have accelerated, as they did with the towers, would mean there must have been another energy acting on the towers that has not been considered. (Before some idiot says 'gravity', think about it)

Also consider the core columns got larger towards the bottom, so the resistance would increase in the case of the core. Also consider that for all the floors to fall symmetrically all connections would to fail at the same time.
Also consider, according to the 'sagging trusses' theory, the floor connections were so strong that they did not fail and pulled in the massive core columns, so if the connections were that strong why did they fail at all. The amount of force it would take to pull in the columns would have been higher than the force of a floor falling on it, I don't even need to do any calculations to make that assessment. The columns had to be by design able to hold more force than a floor assembly.

This site has the information on the core columns, their size and how they taper....

NIST Core Column Data

But first of all though the question of sagging trusses has to be discussed. Because that is what the whole NIST report hinges on. No one has yet been able to prove sagging trusses can pull in the columns they're attached to.
All we get is silly stories about string and chains.

reply to post by wmd_2008


But you keep ignoring equal and opposite reaction.

Dynamic loading is nonsense. Every single collision between objects is a dynamic loading.

All forces come in pairs, equal and opposite in direction. The force on both objects is the same, always, no matter the loading. If the loading of one object increases, the forces are increased on BOTH objects.

So no, your dynamic loading is irrelevant to what you are claiming.

Newton's Third Law

A force is a push or a pull upon an object that results from its interaction with another object. Forces result from interactions! As discussed in Lesson 2, some forces result from contact interactions (normal, frictional, tensional, and applied forces are examples of contact forces) and other forces are the result of action-at-a-distance interactions (gravitational, electrical, and magnetic forces). According to Newton, whenever objects A and B interact with each other, they exert forces upon each other. When you sit in your chair, your body exerts a downward force on the chair and the chair exerts an upward force on your body. There are two forces resulting from this interaction - a force on the chair and a force on your body. These two forces are called action and reaction forces and are the subject of Newton's third law of motion. Formally stated, Newton's third law is:

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs.

www.physicsclassroom.com...

reply to post by maxella1

Actually I don't have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on my side, so is the evidence. Everything you have poster is pure speculation. Sorry bud.

Originally posted by wmd_2008
reply to post by maxella1

 

Its not hard to believe when you look at DYNAMIC loads.

I have asked a few truthers to catch a heavy object they have no problem holding in their hands say 25 -50 lbs after its been dropped 12ft the height of a WTC floor no takers so far I wonder why!

The other problem was the floors were fixed to angle cleats on the inside of the walls so they could drop down if enough connections failed!

edit on 16-5-2012 by wmd_2008 because: (no reason given)

I just watched your video, but since I’m not a physicist I cant comment on it. How do you explain the damage on the 22nd floor? I have asked this question multiple times and got 1 answer...

Originally posted by intrptr reply to post by maxella1

 

What happened to the 22nd floor?

What happened is the biggest planes ever built filled with 10,000 gallons of Jet Fuel slammed into the upper stories of the World Trade Center at hundreds of miles per hour causing just exactly what everyone there in the city that day and everyone else viewed live on any TV station all over the whole world. It went something like this...

BOOOM...BURRRRN...COLLAAAAAPSE...

(times two)

But it doesn't make sense to me, maybe you can explain it?
The reason why this floor is important is because after the WTC 93 bombing, the decision was made to add to the already existing Operations Control Center which was located in Basement 1- the SCC on the 22nd floor.
The SCC controlled the Closed Circuit TV of the WTC complex, the HVAC-System and the access to the roof and the Mechanical Equipment Rooms. SCC was disabled due to an explosion.

From the EMS log: "Firefighter Long on 22nd floor: We made it up to the 22nd floor. We stood there for a couple minutes. I believe Andy Desperito talked to the battalion through the fire warden phones. We did locate somebody at the end of the hall, but everything was blown out. The ceiling had fallen. The drop ceiling had blown to the floor. Some of the walls were blown out. So Andy and I had crawled down the hallway to get to the Port Authority command post."

"The 22nd floor was also affected by fire: On September 12, 2001, NY News Day reported that officials had recently taken steps to secure the towers against aerial attacks by installing bulletproof windows and fireproof doors in the 22nd-floor computer command center. "When the fire started, the room was sealed," said [Hermina] Jones, who was in the command center when explosions rocked the building. "Flames were shooting off the walls....We started putting wet towels under the doors. The Fire Department unsealed the door and grabbed us by the hand and said, 'Run!' "

Firefighter Paul Bessler: "On the 22nd floor, some of the elevator shafts were actually open."

Firefighter Michael Yarembinsky: "When we got to 22, we heard there was a Port Authority command post on 22. So we were stopped there. My officer wanted to find out some information, my officer Lieutenant Andy Desperito. He went over to the command post. We noticed in the hallway that the elevator shaft had been blown out. There was nothing there, no doors, no framing, nothing. When you looked down, all you saw was the cables for the elevator and the brick work that was surrounding."

It is known that two shafts continued from the impact zone down to the basement. These shafts were also the only ones reaching from the impact zone to the 22nd floor. It's very important to note that Cars 6 and 7 didn't stop on floor 22. Only Car 5, 48, 50 and the elevators of Bank B did. There were no doors, or framing, which could have been blown out in the case of Car 6 and 7. The only one remaining for the official version to be true, is Car 50, the main freight elevator. But firefighter Yarembinsky also describes looking down and just seeing cables. Obviously the car would be in the shaft somewhere, most likely out of sight, but he describes seeing the elevator cables, which if severed, as they were in the case of car 50, they would not just be hanging there. So elevator 6 and 7 had no door framings, and the remaining elevator 50 had no cables still hanging inside its shaft. It must be concluded, that Yarembinsky is not talking about one of these three elevators, which would of course create a contradiction to the official version

The 22nd floor controlled many thing needed to manage the emergency, like alarms, intercoms and elevator controls.
It kinda look like it was damaged on purpose.

Originally posted by tide88
reply to post by maxella1

 

Actually I don't have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on my side, so is the evidence. Everything you have poster is pure speculation. Sorry bud.

More accurate statement would be that you CAN NOT PROVE ANYTHING?

tide88,

Here is the segment you quoted from NIST...

Several of the large express passenger elevators, which service the sky lobbies, plunged to the main lobby level. At least one of those falling elevators was accompanied by a huge fireball that burst into the lobby and concourse levels. Only four people are known to have survived in the south tower express elevators.

Your inclusion of this segment leads me to suspect that you support this account. However, any 9/11 researcher would know that the claim that "several" express elevators plunged to the main lobby level is not true. The exception was the 1 elevator that did have a cable separation, which did plummet slowly to a basement level. The 1 guy in it survived but was slightly injured by the steel cable coming down through the car ceiling.

Those guys over at NIST are pissed off and not sleeping too well these days. It's their own fault. They could have resigned when they had the chance. I get the feeling that they were assured the tribunals would be so far in the future as to cause them any worry. Things have been speeding along at a faster clip than any expected.

On the matter of the bombs, are you familiar with the Hydrogen/Boron flavor of nuclear weaponry? In theory (and quite a vast amount of anonymous claims), hand-grenade sized bombs were placed throughout WTC1 and were the cause of much destruction in the basement levels immediately following the "impact."

After researching this for about 5 years, I'm starting to see how Project Looking Glass-type intelligence was used to facilitate 9/11. The problems we face seem to be more about conflicting facts that surely would arise if tasked with mimicking future events based on a changing reflection. The arrogance of knowing in advance the general outcome led some to assume too much. Hard to wrap my head around how the events keep changing in order to support that early visualization.

Still, the bombs (be they advanced nuclear or otherwise) destroyed the buildings. Oh yeah; I forgot to add the pyroclastic nature of the smoke and debris. I don't get how nobody claimed to feel any heat from the flow, but the melted vehicles (steel wheels and even engine blocks) as far as 2 blocks away give away the methods. Barely anyone talks about these melted cars. In one photo of a parking lot full of cars clearly parked there earlier in the morning, I count over 70 vehicles all burned down to the frame and all without tires.

Originally posted by tide88
reply to post by maxella1

 

Actually I don't have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on my side, so is the evidence. Everything you have poster is pure speculation. Sorry bud.

The OS is infinitely more fantastic and ludicrous than just about any "conspiracy theory" i have ever seen. Americans have lost countless freedoms since 911 and have had to pay trillions for mideast wars where all the money goes into the pockets of neocons. This is nothing new. It has been going on, really, for THOUSANDS of years. False flags and wars. Suppress and control the people. Make them beg for your protection. This is called EXTORTION. And in THIS case, mass murder is included. And not just Americans and American soldiers but innocent Iraqi and Afghan civilians. If the neocons get to finish their agenda that 911 allowed them to embark on, we will see millions of Iranians die and then probably billions will die in a global conflict.

And this is what the trolls lie, fight, and obfuscate to help them accomplish. They take conspiracy FACTS and call them THEORIES, and then they take vast and endless connections that are far too fantastic to not be planned and co-ordinated and try to pass them off as random, meaningless coincidences. They really should be applauded don't you think?

reply to post by tide88

If people on the bottom floor felt the building shake,

I would assume

the mere impact of a plane flying that fast and the explosion following could do serious damage to the electrical and computer systems that operate those elevators. Even if the electricity is on, there could have been mechanical failures or other shorts that caused the elevators to not work properly.

Everything you have poster is pure speculation.

Speculation is always a great word to know. So is doohickey.

speculation n 1. the act or an instance of speculating 2. a supposition, theory, or opinion arrived at through speculating.

dictionary

So everything YOU have posted is pure speculation. Sorry bud.

reply to post by maxella1


You dont need to be a physicist to watch a VIDEO watch the needle of the scales, if you are still not convinced take my weight drop challenge (remember drop it 12ft the height of a WTC floor) no one has yet but if you do give an address to send the flowers

As for floor 22 have you got the time of impact and the time they got to floor 22?

reply to post by maxella1


POT and KEETLE

reply to post by wmd_2008

As for floor 22 have you got the time of impact and the time they got to floor 22?

Around the same time with the basement fireballs. Why the 22nd but not the 21st or 23rd?

if you are still not convinced take my weight drop challenge (remember drop it 12ft the height of a WTC floor) no one has yet but if you do give an address to send the flowers

I got a challenge for you...

Why don’t you demonstrate how long it takes for object to free fall by jumping off the empire state building?


You don’t provide any answers to any of the questions, just bunch of random nonsense..

With 30 years of construction experience... cant even answer what type of wood is best for a deck in my back yard. Shocker...

reply to post by SimontheMagus

And this is what the trolls lie, fight, and obfuscate to help them accomplish. They take conspiracy FACTS and call them THEORIES, and then they take vast and endless connections that are far too fantastic to not be planned and co-ordinated and try to pass them off as random, meaningless coincidences. They really should be applauded don't you think?

I got a lot of free time lately due to occupational health hazards, so I’m here applauding them every chance I get. Kinda like job security for the little f*****s.

reply to post by wmd_2008

I got a challenge for you... Why don’t you demonstrate how long it takes for object to free fall by jumping off the empire state building?

After evaluating your level of critical thinking skills by reading your previous posts I realized that you might actually do it.

So I am withdrawing this challenge because it is irresponsible. Also I would hate for this jumper down job being assigned to one of hard working members of emergency services. And it would probably be a late job too.

So please DO NOT JUMP off the Empire State building or any other building. Because human-beings cant fly.

Originally posted by maxella1
reply to post by wmd_2008

 

As for floor 22 have you got the time of impact and the time they got to floor 22?

Around the same time with the basement fireballs. Why the 22nd but not the 21st or 23rd?

if you are still not convinced take my weight drop challenge (remember drop it 12ft the height of a WTC floor) no one has yet but if you do give an address to send the flowers

With 30 years of construction experience... cant even answer what type of wood is best for a deck in my back yard. Shocker...

I WOULD have to BILL you for that

Originally posted by maxella1
reply to post by wmd_2008

 

I got a challenge for you... Why don’t you demonstrate how long it takes for object to free fall by jumping off the empire state building?

After evaluating your level of critical thinking skills by reading your previous posts I realized that you might actually do it.

So I am withdrawing this challenge because it is irresponsible. Also I would hate for this jumper down job being assigned to one of hard working members of emergency services. And it would probably be a late job too.

So please DO NOT JUMP off the Empire State building or any other building. Because human-beings cant fly.

edit on 17-5-2012 by maxella1 because: (no reason given)

No doubt you think the buildings fell at free fall care to prove that?

reply to post by wmd_2008

Glad to see you still with us.

No doubt you think the buildings fell at free fall care to prove that?

No doubt hah?

I WOULD have to BILL you for that

How much for explanation of the damage on the 22nd floor?

Originally posted by wmd_2008
No doubt you think the buildings fell at free fall care to prove that?

Controlled demolitions don't fall at free fall speed. Close to it, but not quite, and it all depends on the building. SO why should she prove it?

Not one, not two, but three steel-framed buildings go down in controlled demolition fashion in one day, all within a couple of hundred yards of each other. It never happened before, and it hasn't happened since. The Pentagon wall goes down in a controlled demolition 20 minutes after the missile hit it, and the Shanksville plane was shot down. In the meantime silly-ass Americans are going to see "Let's Roll" while the award ceremony for Richard Gibney, who shot it down, is right on the Internet. These things would be approximately the first .001 percent of what is wrong with the official story.

But of course there's no chance you OS'ers could be wrong. The mindless arrogance is astounding. Someday 100,000 years from now we can show your posts in classrooms around the world as evidence that in spite of all our technological advancement, intellectually some of the human race as of 2012 has not progressed much past the Neanderthals.

Originally posted by SimontheMagus

Controlled demolitions don't fall at free fall speed. Close to it, but not quite, and it all depends on the building. SO why should she prove it?

Because that is all we ever hear that the WTCs were demolitions because they fell at free-fall speed. (Which in fact they did NOT)

Not one, not two, but three steel-framed buildings go down in controlled demolition fashion in one day, all within a couple of hundred yards of each other. It never happened before, and it hasn't happened since. The Pentagon wall goes down in a controlled demolition 20 minutes after the missile hit it, and the Shanksville plane was shot down. In the meantime silly-ass Americans are going to see "Let's Roll" while the award ceremony for Richard Gibney, who shot it down, is right on the Internet. These things would be approximately the first .001 percent of what is wrong with the official story.

You mean three buildings collapsed from severe damage and fire. The Pentagon hit by a plane and the section collapsed after impact and fires weakened it. Richard Gibney was no where near Shanksville. I guess you truthers also suck in geography as North Dakota is nowhere near Shanksville, PA. That is where Lt. Col. Rick Gibney was flying to Bozeman, Monatna to pick up the NY State Emergency Management Office director, Ed Jacoby Jr. and then fly him to Albany, NY. Why did you have to post so many erroneous reports and LIES?

But of course there's no chance you OS'ers could be wrong. The mindless arrogance is astounding. Someday 100,000 years from now we can show your posts in classrooms around the world as evidence that in spite of all our technological advancement, intellectually some of the human race as of 2012 has not progressed much past the Neanderthals.

Judging by your post above, arrogance and ignorance fit your comments to a T. And your last statement couldnt be more true. Especially based on your posts about Gibney, the Pentagon, and everything else you posted.