Why Did The UK Abandon Australia??

Originally posted by SNAFU38
1. You obviously have never seen the bond between Kiwis & Aussies, especially our soldiers, WE understand the Spirit of ANZAC, so get over yourself, I know for a fact Kiwis much prefer working with us, & we them.

We have a bond you will never understand.

Having been friends with a number of Aussies and Kiwis, I can assure you that Kiwis don't view Australians in quite as positive manner as you appear to believe.

Originally posted by SNAFU38
If you have so much of a problem in us becoming a republic, then please, show us a single reason why we shouldn't.

I, and I imagine that the vast majority of British people have no objection to Australia becoming a republic. What on earth makes you think we do?

Just let up on the anti-British hatefest would you?

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by SNAFU38
Back that up !

You never will because you never can. Oh so typical, Holier than thou, the ignorance & arrogance still stuns me. That is why your Empire has crumbled & abandoned you, you just dont & never will understand. Go salute your irrelevant queen, she perfectly represents your empire.

Can I give you one example of the divorce between perception and reality of Aussies?

You will notice that Aussies present the Gallipoli campaign as an ANZAC operation.

Yet 52% of the casualties were British, 20% were Australian, 19% were French and 5% were NZ.

Gallipoli

To read the Aussie accounts of Gallipoli, you would think that they were the only people there.

You also neglect to point out that many of the UK casualties were people from many nations within the Commonwealth, attached to UK Regiments & therefore listed as UK casualties. Our nations pride is built around that campaign, so please, dont humiliate yourself trying to belittle what we did on English orders, even though we repeatedly told your commanders, 'you got this wrong !!!' Every Australian knows this story well, this isn't one you will win.

We also do call it ANZAC, not AAC, we know very well that NZ is part of ANZAC, they may have suffered only 1/4 of the casualties we did, yet we consider them as an equal sacrifice. To be honest I have never been ignorant enough to compare our losses, its insignificant to the story so I dont even know if your numbers are correct. We dont write AnzAC because they lost less than us, we consider them equals, our brothers. Sadly you never will, we will forever be convicts to blind monarchists, & unlike you, we dont count numbers, what counts to us is mateship & looking after your friends, defending them when they need it. Oops, back to the OP.

Originally posted by SNAFU38
You also neglect to point out that many of the UK casualties were people from many nations within the Commonwealth, attached to UK Regiments & therefore listed as UK casualties.

I have read a lot about WWI and I have never read about non British soldiers being attached to British regiments. At a higher Corp level, yes but not at a regimental level.

Can you provide any evidence to back up your assertion that the British troops listed as killed and wounded at Gallipoli were not actually British?

Originally posted by SNAFU38
Our nations pride is built around that campaign, so please, dont humiliate yourself trying to belittle what we did on English orders, even though we repeatedly told your commanders, 'you got this wrong !!!' Every Australian knows this story well, this isn't one you will win.

Yet you appear to have been unaware that Aussie casualties make up only about 20% of the entire campaigns.

Originally posted by SNAFU38
To be honest I have never been ignorant enough to compare our losses, its insignificant to the story so I dont even know if your numbers are correct.

I provided you with a link.

The fact that the British suffered 2.5 times as many causalties as the Aussies and the French almost as many, does cast a light on Gallipoli that many Australians appear to be unaware of.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by SNAFU38
1. You obviously have never seen the bond between Kiwis & Aussies, especially our soldiers, WE understand the Spirit of ANZAC, so get over yourself, I know for a fact Kiwis much prefer working with us, & we them.

We have a bond you will never understand.

Having been friends with a number of Aussies and Kiwis, I can assure you that Kiwis don't view Australians in quite as positive manner as you appear to believe.

NEW ZEALANDERS IN AUSTRALIA

The number of NZ-born people living in Australia increased by 89% over the last two decades, from 280,200 in 1989 to 529,200 in 2009.

Annual growth in the number of NZ-born people living in Australia averaged 13,100 between 1989 to 2009. However, from year to year there have been variations in annual growth, with increases exceeding 25,000 on four occasions (1989, 2001, 2008 and 2009), and negative growth in 1991 (-860). This decrease coincided with the early 1990s recession within Australia, which may have discouraged some NZ-born people from coming to Australia, and prompted others to return 'home'. (Source www.abs.gov.au...@.nsf/Lookup/4102.0Main+Features50Sep+2010)

You friends with all of them ?? Again, dont tell me about my own back yard, that is so typically ignorant.

Originally posted by SNAFU38
If you have so much of a problem in us becoming a republic, then please, show us a single reason why we shouldn't.

I, and I imagine that the vast majority of British people have no objection to Australia becoming a republic. What on earth makes you think we do?

Quotes from YOU this thread;

"I suspect that Republican Australians have been pushing a slant on WWII to suit their agenda.

If Australians want a republic, then that is up to them.

the British were not quite as incompetent as the 1960s revisionists and republicans would have you believe

They have been fed so much republican propoganda over the years however that it is very difficult to have a rational conversation with them about either WWI or WWII. "

You tell me where I got the idea from, you keep raising the subject.

Apart from those who still believe England is our master & superior, I generally have no issue, but I reserve the right to have serious issue with the monarchy & english leaders of past, as this thread is about. English military & civilian commanders could not have cared less about us, & as someone pointed out previously, their refusal to allow our troops home from Africa etc to defend our home when the Japanese were softening us up for an invasion is proof of that.

Originally posted by SNAFU38
Our nations pride is built around that campaign, so please, dont humiliate yourself trying to belittle what we did on English orders, even though we repeatedly told your commanders, 'you got this wrong !!!' Every Australian knows this story well, this isn't one you will win.

I agree with you that the campaign was a shambles. The problem was however that no one proceeded inland and sized the mountains. Not the British, not the French and not the ANZACS.

Strategically the whole campaign was also flawed. If you want to blame anyone, blame Churchill. He was the man behind it form start to finish.

Afterwards he was thrown out of government and reduced to acting as a captain on the Western front. He felt he should have been a divisional commander at least. Luckily the Western front generals disagreed.

Churchill tended to have the midas touch in reverse. Don't forget that lots of British and French soldiers also died because of his incompetence. By all means blame the British. It was their show after all. But don't forget that the ordinary British soldier and officer also suffered from upper class English incompetence.

Originally posted by SNAFU38
Apart from those who still believe England is our master & superior, I generally have no issue, but I reserve the right to have serious issue with the monarchy & english leaders of past, as this thread is about.

I doubt any English people these days think they are the master and superior of anyone. Well, the upper class type can still show missplaced arrogance, but no one thinks that Australia doesn't have the right to ditch the Queen.

reply to post by ollncasino


WOW, really ?

en.wikipedia.org...

Thats just the RAF & just the Battle of Britain, ie Spitfire pilots, let alone those who served in the Army & Navy, Bomber Command etc.

Go do some more reading, no, a lot more reading, then get back to this, wow. I'm going to bed, you have a few hours to do some research.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by SNAFU38
Our nations pride is built around that campaign, so please, dont humiliate yourself trying to belittle what we did on English orders, even though we repeatedly told your commanders, 'you got this wrong !!!' Every Australian knows this story well, this isn't one you will win.

Strategically the whole campaign was also flawed. If you want to blame anyone, blame Churchill. He was the man behind it form start to finish.

I do,

thats been my point all along.

Completel British hatefest.


Anyway, what do you say to the fact that Britiain had 10x more casualties than Austrlia in WW1? I would say it is Australia that didn't commit to the war as much as she should have.

Oh well...

en.wikipedia.org...

We lost a hell of a lot more than you and you dare complain about us not helping you as much as we could? I say you should of helped us more. I say you should of helped europe more.

Oh well, carry on.

I HAVE THE SIMPLEST AND MOST CORRECT OF ANSWERS FOR THE OP!

The reason why UK didn't come to Australia's aid, is because Australia as a country love losing, we (I'm Aussie) celebrate it and congratulate it.

Look at Anzac day, it signifies our soldiers getting slaughtered, i mean WTF? are we the only country in the world that has our most patriotic day revolve around being slaughtered at war, any other country celebrates a victory a time when their military had their backs against the wall and they fought through using team work and patriotism to win.

We celebrate running around like chickens with no heads and getting mowed down with gun fire..

U.K probably realized this and said oh well, let them have another day to celebrate and be proud of, no need to send troops.

EDIT OF POST FOR ANOTHER RANT

To add to this, the British at that time were honorable people, no need to go on a bagging spree, you are a victim of the propaganda machine that Australia will never be good enough to defend ourselves, we as Aussies are always looking for others to do our dirty work, we have some of the greatest infastructure for great R&D and production of military might, yet when it comes to our parades, we fill it not with tanks and missles lining the streets but old blokes with medals and walking sticks.

We always look for help from others such as filling our shores with U.S bases and soldiers in case of invasion, as a trade off for this protection we become a puppet government who bend over to take policies, we should be the ones with the missles and capabilities to handle Asia and our own backyard and dictate to others on what terms they should be our allies. but we dont, because from young children we are shown that stupid movie "Gallipoli" and it is set in our head that as soldiers we will never be good enough to protect our own.

Why ask where were the Brittish, why not just be proud that we did it on our own, last time i checked we aren't speaking Japanese.

Anyway, maybe we should of lost the war, last time i checked the countries that did lose WW2 are the most economically sound and technologically advanced out there.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Having been friends with a number of Aussies and Kiwis, I can assure you that Kiwis don't view Australians in quite as positive manner as you appear to believe.

Penis envy mate.... penis envy!


IRM

Originally posted by Vaski
I HAVE THE SIMPLEST AND MOST CORRECT OF ANSWERS FOR THE OP!

The reason why UK didn't come to Australia's aid, is because Australia as a country love losing, we (I'm Aussie) celebrate it and congratulate it.

Look at Anzac day, it signifies our soldiers getting slaughtered, i mean WTF? are we the only country in the world that has our most patriotic day revolve around being slaughtered at war, any other country celebrates a victory a time when their military had their backs against the wall and they fought through using team work and patriotism to win.

We celebrate running around like chickens with no heads and getting mowed down with gun fire..

U.K probably realized this and said oh well, let them have another day to celebrate and be proud of, no need to send troops.

Man... what a lamb shanker!

IRM

reply to post by CrimsonKapital


more to the point - before answering your loaded question , when exactly was australia " abandoned " as you alledge

despite your claim - ther was no actual threat of invasion - the bitishsh knew it , the australians knew it - heck even the japanese knew it

japan was halted in PNG - they had neither the troops or logistics to push further

and any invasion of australia would extend them beyond breaking point - they could not create , support or sustain any invasion force

thus australia was never in any true peril

reply to post by CrimsonKapital





Scrolling to the bottom of that link Curtin acknowledges "By appealing to the USA he

recognised that Britain was 'unable' to help Australia while battling for it's 'own survival' in

Europe.


Like everything in history the edges get blurred and the core gets skewed depending on

which side of the fence the 'tale' is related from. Suffice to say too many brave fathers, sons,

brothers, husbands died and were maimed in conflicts throughout history and that is without

mentioning the civilians which included women and children

Retrospectively I don't doubt that mistakes were made and there were errors of judgement but

that never was the intent.

I would hazard a guess that not any of you on this thread were there? so everything you know

about it is 'hear say' and probably what you have read, so whilst facts are there, there is always

a different slant, a different angle which comes from 'which ever side' it is being related from!

Isn't it time to learn from the past and horrors of war instead of slagging off our allies?

reply to post by CrimsonKapital


I'm doing something I really don't like doing here by posting a reply after only reading your OP, but that is because it's something I feel so passionate about.

If the UK did abandon Australia then it's unforgivable.
Most of us here in the UK hold our Australian, New Zealand and Candian cousins in the highest possible regard, even though we love beating you at cricket, and know and respect the sacrifices so many of your citizens paid in both World Wars.

But you must realise that the UK and it's Empire was under attack on all fronts at the time.

The UK had just achieved a hard fought victory in The Battle Of Britain and stood alone in the fight against Hitler in Europe.
It was imperative to safeguard the home borders and to build up and prepare for the eventual invasion and liberation of mainland Europe.

British forces pressed to their limit in the North Africa and Mediterranean arena's and to be fair Japan had given us a bit of thumping in Asia.

I don't know if many non-UK citizens realise just how much alone and under constant threat the UK was here in Europe.

I can only say that I genuinely hope the UK did not abandon Australia or any of our Commonwealth partners and if in the unlikely event that Australia ever needs any support and assistance in the future the UK will not be found wanting.

You can't dwell on the past. This was over 50 years ago move on!! I can think of lots of presant topics to be debating.

I don't know much about it, I was born 40 years later but as an Englishman, I am disappointed to hear this. I think Australia should be recognised as possibly the most peaceful place on Earth. The ozzies certainly haven't started a war, ever.

Originally posted by Grifter81
My my this has decended into a bit of an anti-British triade hasn't it? I was only gone a couple of hours.

I didn't know Austrailians had such strong feelings toward the British?

If the British had decided to send Australia help, the history of the world would be a LOT different today.

Even though we were the Empires most loyal, you showed your true colours for how you felt about us. Its about time we returned the favour, right?

reply to post by CrimsonKapital

If the British had decided to send Australia help, the history of the world would be a LOT different today.

Yip, can't disagree with you there.....the UK would probably have been defeated by Htiler's Germany and who knows how things would have turned out then?

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by pheonix358
You have already been given the web address of the Australian War Memorial.. We get our history from the people that were there.

Revisionists did not alter our history, perhaps that is why your preconceptions are so out of phase with reality. WW2 was about Britain and Britain's survival. They really did not care about Australia. They viewed it as a colony that could be retaken once the (stone) heart of the Empire was secure.

Their attitude was summed up in the loss of Fortress Singapore. Supreme Arrogance! That is why the Empire is gone. Oh, look, we're going to have another one go belly up. Look kids, history in the making! Bye bye USA.

P

I have known many Australians. They are good, fair people.

I respect your feelings.

If you indeed get your history from the people that were there then you will be aware that, at least in terms of WWI, the British were not quite as incompetent as the 1960s revisionists and republicans would have you believe nor were the Australians quite as heroic as they would like to think.

WHAT??
"Nor quite as heroic as they would like to think"

My god you speak bulls**t.
The British used Australians and many other men from the dominions as cannon fodder. Look at the Battle of Fromelles or Gallipoli and see just how incompetent the British were.

Then it took an Australian general John Monash to end the stalemate in North Africa which led to the allies winning the war a few months later.

Australian militia won victories at Buna, Gona, Eora Creek, Milne Bay, and Bougainvile all of which led to the defeat of the Japanese. However the Americans took all the credit declaring the major victories at Buna and Gona to be American achievements.
Funny, because in those battles it was recorded the Americans cowered in the brush as the Australians charged. Even the Japanese viewed the Americans and British as cowards, but they viewed the Australians as a worthy opponent one that showed little mercy and fought till death.

The British were cowards too, after Singapore was bombed the British command quickly waved a white flag leaving up to 15,000 Australians to be captured, none of whom would survive the Japanese prison camps.

You might want to watch what you write before you make yourself look like a fool.