Why Did The UK Abandon Australia??

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital
As you can see by the title, my question is simple why did the UK abandon Australia during WW2.

The Battle for Australia began after the Fall of Singapore, however even after fortress Singapore fell and Australia pleaded for British help, NO reinforcements were sent?

Australians are a very loyal people but were completely betrayed. Whats your say on this?

On the one hand it could be argued that it was a gamble that the Japanese would not invade mainland Australia.

On the other hand, the Americans were reading Japanese codes at a very high level and there was never, to the best of my knowledege, any evidence of the Japanese planning to invade Australia.

Magic Cryptography

It was similar situation in Europe where the British were reading German signals at a very high level using Ultra.

British Ultra Code Breaking

Surely you jest, England knew very well that the Japanese had attacked Australia in no less than 4 locations, Darwin (for more than 2 years, my uncle was there for it) Townsville, Newcastle & several mini-subs that attacked Sydney harbour. If thats not attacking Australia & not justification for us to bug out home, I dont know what is.

reply to post by SNAFU38


So very true, all of what you wrote. However, I don't hate the British, BUT there use of our people as cannon fodder is what infuriates me. Just as you said, towns in France remember the Australians that liberated them from the Germans, most notably Fromelles.
Britain is yet to even dedicate a memorial for the ANZACs and its been almost 100 years?!?!

After the Queen is gone we will finally be able to become our own nation, viva la republic.

Originally posted by SNAFU38
Surely you jest, England knew very well that the Japanese had attacked Australia in no less than 4 locations, Darwin (for more than 2 years, my uncle was there for it) Townsville, Newcastle & several mini-subs that attacked Sydney harbour. If thats not attacking Australia & not justification for us to bug out home, I dont know what is.

Bombing and mini-subs do not amount to a Japanese plan for full invasion.

If you can find any evidence that the Japanese planned an invasion I would be interested to read it.

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital
After the Queen is gone we will finally be able to become our own nation, viva la republic.

Thanks for the video links. I will watch them later when I have time.

If Australians want a republic, then that is up to them.

If Republicans have to resort to untrue propoganda such as claiming the British didn't help Australia in WWII or claiming that Churchill called Australians TRAITORS, then it is kind of sad that they are driving a wedge that is largely not justified between two groups of people who are natural allies.

I like Australians. I have known many and been been lucky enough to very good friends with a few. They are a good people.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by SNAFU38
Surely you jest, England knew very well that the Japanese had attacked Australia in no less than 4 locations, Darwin (for more than 2 years, my uncle was there for it) Townsville, Newcastle & several mini-subs that attacked Sydney harbour. If thats not attacking Australia & not justification for us to bug out home, I dont know what is.

Bombing and mini-subs do not amount to a Japanese plan for full invasion.

If you can find any evidence that the Japanese planned an invasion I would be interested to read it.

There is a considerable body of evidence, including the views of distinguished historians, senior Japanese Navy officers, and the official history of Japan's involvement in World War II, to support a conclusion that the Japanese intended to become the masters of Australia in 1942, either by (a) invasion of northern Australia and severing Australia's lifeline to the United States, or (b) severing Australia's lifeline to the United States and then pressuring Australia into surrender to Japan.

"Proceed with the Southern Operations, all the while blockading supply from Britain and the United States and strengthening the pressure on Australia, ultimately with the aim to force Australia to be freed from the shackles of Britain and the United States."

From Senshi Sosho, the official history of Japan's involvement in World War II, "Debate concerning attack on the Australian Mainland", Chapter 3, "Army Operations in the South Pacific Area - Papua campaigns 1942-43".

However, when the Japanese Navy requested troops for an invasion of Australia at a meeting of the Army and Navy Sections of Japan's Imperial General Headquarters on 4 March 1942, the generals refused. They had a different but equally sinister plan for bringing Australia under Japanese control. The Japanese generals did not see a need to commit massive troop and logistical resources to the conquest of the Australian mainland in the early months of 1942. The easy capture of Rabaul on 23 January 1942 and the first bombings of Darwin on 19 February 1942 had convinced the Japanese Army that Australia had little with which to defend itself from invasion. It was the sheer size of Australia that the generals saw as an immediate problem. The generals felt that their army resources had already been heavily overextended by Japan's rapid and massive territorial conquests, and that the Imperial Army needed time to consolidate its territorial gains.The Japanese Army was confident that Australia could be pressured into surrender to Japan by isolating it completely from the United States as part of an intensified blockade, and by applying intense psychological pressure. The Japanese plan to sever Australia's lifeline to the United States was given the code reference "Operation FS" (also known as "FS Operation").

By 7 March 1942, the Japanese Navy and Army had agreed that severing Australia's lifeline to the United States (Operation FS) and pressuring Australia into submission to Japan were more important objectives than the limited invasion of Australia's northern coast that the Navy had earlier proposed. At the Imperial General Headquarters Liaison Conference on 7 March 1942, the Navy General Staff and Navy Ministry agreed to their limited invasion proposal being deferred in favour of the Army plan to sever Australia's lifeline to the United States and then pressure Australia's into total surrender to Japan. It is important to note that the Japanese generals did not rule out their support for an invasion by force if Australia did not surrender as they expected when the Japanese noose was tightened.

www.pacificwar.org.au...

www.battleforaustralia.org...

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital
www.pacificwar.org.au...

www.battleforaustralia.org...

Thanks for those links. I will have a good read of them later when I have more time.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital
After the Queen is gone we will finally be able to become our own nation, viva la republic.

Thanks for the video links. I will watch them later when I have time.

If Australians want a republic, then that is up to them.

If Republicans have to resort to untrue propoganda such as claiming the British didn't help Australia in WWII or claiming that Churchill called Australians TRAITORS, then it is kind of sad that they are driving a wedge that is largely not justified between two groups of people who are natural allies.

I like Australians. I have known many and been been lucky enough to very good friends with a few. They are a good people.

The only ally of Australias that I actually like is Great Britain, I don't like America (for obvious reasons).

I'm not trying to make some big anti-British rant here, lets just say for a moment that Britain didn't abandon Australia. Okay?
Now stand back and take a look, Britain sent next to no help for Australia after the Fall of Singapore. Could they have done more? Of course.
Did they? For whatever reason you want to say, no they didn't.

Republicans don't use this issue as propaganda, in fact I've never heard of any republican put forward such a statement. Our Anglo nations are connected through history, and even if we do become a republic, Great Britain will always remain great in our eyes.

reply to post by ollncasino


You picked a great avatar. Suits you right down to the boots.

Many Australians feel betrayed and many feel bitter regarding the sheer waste of life committed by British Officers who paid for their positions with cash!

The Battle of the Coral Sea was the turning of the Invasion fleet headed for Australia.

Next you will want bloody photos!

It does not matter what we give you, you will continue to dispute it.

Do you have the guts and tenacity to look it up your self. Our history speaks the truth and we learn it at school.

God, but that avatar suits you.

P

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital
www.pacificwar.org.au...

www.battleforaustralia.org...

Thanks for those links. I will have a good read of them later when I have more time.

I highly reccomend watching the videos, it explains pretty much everything in those links except its in video with an epic soundtrack.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by SNAFU38
Surely you jest, England knew very well that the Japanese had attacked Australia in no less than 4 locations, Darwin (for more than 2 years, my uncle was there for it) Townsville, Newcastle & several mini-subs that attacked Sydney harbour. If thats not attacking Australia & not justification for us to bug out home, I dont know what is.

Bombing and mini-subs do not amount to a Japanese plan for full invasion.

If you can find any evidence that the Japanese planned an invasion I would be interested to read it.

OK hang on, I'll just jump onto my secret Japanese war files & find the orders Really ???

They bombed Darwin for more than 2 years, they attacked us in what is essentailly Still our capital city (Sydney), & yet they weren't trying to prepare us for invasion ??? So I guess that means the battle of britain was just a bluff huh ?? You had the Huns (& us in support), we had Hirohito (& the US in support).

I suggest you spend some time reading the website of the Australian War Memorial, www.awm.gov.au...

Australia has Always sent our troops wherever england demanded, & yet we needed you. Thank god for the American presence (even if it was just by luck) & our combined effort in Darwin, or else I'd be talking Japanese.

As for the proof you seek re orders. This I cannot prove, though I know for a fact, there is a Japanese submarine NW of Darwin that was sunk, is an official war grave, its location is not listed by request of the Japanese Govt, it is regularly overflown by our Customs, & the only people allowed near it are RAN divers to check it is not leaking oils etc. Rumour is (yes I know, rumour, but one taught to me by the ADF so more than credible) that subs safe contains 'those orders' to sink a RAN ship off the WA coast, prior to them entering the war officially. Yes I do appologise for not having the details on hand, I haven't been back from the pub long.

Maybe I was wrong, all those arrows are pointing to an obvious invasion of, well whats south of Australia, oh yes, the South Pole !!!! www.awm.gov.au... Who else were they planning to invade ????????????? You were right, no obvious threat to Australia at all

Oh & PS, I'd love for you to explain to my uncle exactly how it was he wasn't being invaded, I for one would love to hear it.

Originally posted by pheonix358
reply to post by ollncasino

 

Next you will want bloody photos!
P

No pics, it didnt happen

Love it, so true.

Originally posted by pheonix358
You picked a great avatar. Suits you right down to the boots.

Many Australians feel betrayed and many feel bitter regarding the sheer waste of life committed by British Officers who paid for their positions with cash!

I take it you are referring to WWI.

You will find that British officers didn't pay for their commissions in WWI. British officers also suffered horrendous casualties in World War I.

I respect the depth of your feelings.

Could I ask you however to read some contemporary historical analysis of the British and Australians in WWI?

You will find that it better matches the perceptions of people at the time.

For instance, that famous quote "Lions led by donkeys" was never uttered by a German.

Alan Clark, the author, admitted having made it up in the 1960s.

Unfortunately, the whole debate on WWI has been distorted greatly by the revisionists of the 1960s.

Historians have since moved on but it will take a long time before the distorted perceptions of the Great war by the public catches up.

You have already been given the web address of the Australian War Memorial.. We get our history from the people that were there.

Revisionists did not alter our history, perhaps that is why your preconceptions are so out of phase with reality. WW2 was about Britain and Britain's survival. They really did not care about Australia. They viewed it as a colony that could be retaken once the (stone) heart of the Empire was secure.

Their attitude was summed up in the loss of Fortress Singapore. Supreme Arrogance! That is why the Empire is gone. Oh, look, we're going to have another one go belly up. Look kids, history in the making! Bye bye USA.

P

My my this has decended into a bit of an anti-British triade hasn't it? I was only gone a couple of hours.

I didn't know Austrailians had such strong feelings toward the British?

Originally posted by pheonix358
You have already been given the web address of the Australian War Memorial.. We get our history from the people that were there.

Revisionists did not alter our history, perhaps that is why your preconceptions are so out of phase with reality. WW2 was about Britain and Britain's survival. They really did not care about Australia. They viewed it as a colony that could be retaken once the (stone) heart of the Empire was secure.

Their attitude was summed up in the loss of Fortress Singapore. Supreme Arrogance! That is why the Empire is gone. Oh, look, we're going to have another one go belly up. Look kids, history in the making! Bye bye USA.

P

I have known many Australians. They are good, fair people.

I respect your feelings.

If you indeed get your history from the people that were there then you will be aware that, at least in terms of WWI, the British were not quite as incompetent as the 1960s revisionists and republicans would have you believe nor were the Australians quite as heroic as they would like to think.

Originally posted by Grifter81
My my this has decended into a bit of an anti-British triade hasn't it? I was only gone a couple of hours.

I didn't know Austrailians had such strong feelings toward the British?

We are talking about the historical British, the Empire British. The ones who looked down at the colonies as one looks at the corgis. Cute but expendable. (Sorry Your Majesty!)

Situation is changed somewhat now. Now they want to come to Australia because of the fine weather, good food and great lifestyle and complain each and every great summers day just because the mercury hits 40 degrees.

ROFL

P

Originally posted by Grifter81
My my this has decended into a bit of an anti-British triade hasn't it? I was only gone a couple of hours.

I didn't know Austrailians had such strong feelings toward the British?

Aussies are really nice, fair, down to earth people.

They have been fed so much republican propoganda over the years however that it is very difficult to have a rational conversation with them about either WWI or WWII.

Interestingly, the Kiwis are not like that at all yet they proportionately made a greater effort and lost more men than the Aussies in both world wars.

I suppose the difference is that NZ doesn't have a republican movement churning out anti-British propoganda.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by pheonix358
You have already been given the web address of the Australian War Memorial.. We get our history from the people that were there.

Revisionists did not alter our history, perhaps that is why your preconceptions are so out of phase with reality. WW2 was about Britain and Britain's survival. They really did not care about Australia. They viewed it as a colony that could be retaken once the (stone) heart of the Empire was secure.

Their attitude was summed up in the loss of Fortress Singapore. Supreme Arrogance! That is why the Empire is gone. Oh, look, we're going to have another one go belly up. Look kids, history in the making! Bye bye USA.

P

nor were the Australians quite as heroic as they would like to think.

Back that up !

You never will because you never can. Oh so typical, Holier than thou, the ignorance & arrogance still stuns me. That is why your Empire has crumbled & abandoned you, you just dont & never will understand. Go salute your irrelevant queen, she perfectly represents your empire.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by Grifter81
My my this has decended into a bit of an anti-British triade hasn't it? I was only gone a couple of hours.

I didn't know Austrailians had such strong feelings toward the British?

Aussies are really nice, fair, down to earth people.

They have been fed so much republican propoganda over the years however that it is very difficult to have a rational conversation with them about either WWI or WWII.

Interestingly, the Kiwis are not like that at all yet they proportionately made a greater effort and lost more men than the Aussies in both world wars.

I suppose the difference is that NZ doesn't have a republican movement churning out anti-British propoganda.

1. You obviously have never seen the bond between Kiwis & Aussies, especially our soldiers, WE understand the Spirit of ANZAC, so get over yourself, I know for a fact Kiwis much prefer working with us, & we them. We have a bond you will never understand.

2. www.nzherald.co.nz... It also appears there is strong sentiment that they would rather be called Australian than remain as the nation of New Zealand & be related to YOUR queen.

We ANZACS dont forget, & NZ know it was them after us. If you wouldn't defend Australia, an island bigger than all your invaded countries combined, there was no way you'd defend them.

If you have so much of a problem in us becoming a republic, then please, show us a single reason why we shouldn't. We always have & always will be just a colony to you, like many other islands around the world. You are becoming irrelevant more each year, accept it ! You not only ignored us like the OP said, you did it to all your colonies. We've had enough, accept it ! Even Scotland wants to bug out on you, the rightful owners of the crown.

Originally posted by SNAFU38
Back that up !

You never will because you never can. Oh so typical, Holier than thou, the ignorance & arrogance still stuns me. That is why your Empire has crumbled & abandoned you, you just dont & never will understand. Go salute your irrelevant queen, she perfectly represents your empire.

Can I give you one example of the divorce between perception and reality of Aussies?

You will notice that Aussies present the Gallipoli campaign as an ANZAC operation.

Yet 52% of the casualties were British, 20% were Australian, 19% were French and 5% were NZ.

Gallipoli

To read the Aussie accounts of Gallipoli, you would think that they were the only people there.