Lost Bird Proves Apollo Inauthenticity

Dude you need to go with 1 thread for all this crap, stop the constant spamming of Apollo was fake posts please. They are all on the same subject line so you only need 1 big thread. Cant believe the mods have not said something about this. Im not saying you cant talk about this or post what you want at all, its your opinion so state it, but you dont need to fill this section with 7 threads over the same gist, you dont think Apollo was real...

You don't know who gave the data to the LRRR guys. You don't know what the 5 sets of coordinates the Fido guys had. You Don't know who at JPL & NASA knew what at what time. That there was some confusion over coordinates proves nothing so far. You need to speak to people who were involved and actually find out what happened. Otherwise this is all just conjecture...fitting a small amount of circumstantial evidence together to fit your ideas.

You're really not proving anything.

reply to post by decisively


an interesting tidbit:

125:58:36 Aldrin: Roger. We saw you come up over the horizon and it looks like you had a laser operating. Could you confirm that?

[Aldrin means the Earth rising over the horizon, and he is asking whether a laser was being fired at the Moon as part of an experiment also undertaken earlier in the mission. It would be used to target the reflector they had left on lunar surface the previous day.]

history.nasa.gov...

dont know what to make of it though, as i cant find where houston confirms it or not.

I wouldnt be surprised to find out we have a base on the moon or a military laboratory any how.

People keep talking about depopulation. No , no , no.

The real riches lie in space , not Earth. You have a virtually unlimited amount of resources in space and you can mine the moons and planets without worry of destroying an Ecosystem , well one that affects us any how as i am sure bacteria lives on moons and other planets.

Hmmmm ive been to Lick. Never saw the laser. I should ask if they still have it.

Also, this observatory is run by a school, University of California Santa Cruz. So its not outside the realm of possibility that the equipment, which is being used by students all the time was faulty or misaligned.

If they can hit the laser now, then something is up there. If they have pictures of the rover tracks now, something drove around up there.

reply to post by wmd_2008


My point is any equipment verified as present on the surface of the moon is not so vetted as having been brought to the moon's surface in the setting/context of a manned mission. Because there is a LRRR at 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east, that does not mean Aldrin/Armstrong placed it there, even if you show me a picture of a piece of equipment at that very site taken from several miles or more up.

reply to post by Wiz4769


Hardly the same subject. Take a look at the Alan Shepard/Meniere's Disease Thread. It is particularly interesting this evening. I'd suggest you pop some Xanax before reading my last post there.

reply to post by tpsreporter


They do not have the laser there now, only ran there temporarily, very briefly. The set up at McDonald was the one dedicated to ongoing activity. The Lick group was particularly well qualified to tackle the problem though. The group at Lick Observatory said that never before or since did they get as much money as they wanted, NO OBJECT. It is a great story.

One of the astronomers there, Joseph Wampler, wrote to me several times to help me understand the details of the goings on there that evening. Professor Wampler was the man that picked up the phone when NASA called and said on the night of 07/20/1969; 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east. I can say those numbers in my sleep now.

You may be aware that Merton Davies of the Rand Corporation revised those landing site coordinate numbers in 1987. But for the purpose of the discussion here, we should of course use the contemporary figures.

reply to post by mrwiffler


As per my post above, I have communicated with Joseph Wampler, one of the astronomers at Lick Observatory. He wrote a nice article in Scientific American with Professor Faller about the Lick Laser. It was one of the spring publications, March, April, May, 1970.

I have communicated directly with flight officers and also Donald Beattie. Donald was one of the Lunar scientists and he made a serious effort/run at becoming an astronaut. Donald wrote a book, TAKING SCIENCE TO THE MOON. Check it out, very good. Donald touched on this as well, the fact no one knew where the Eagle landed in real time. Beattie was involved in the assessment of the data post Apollo 11 return to earth that lead to the landing site coordinate determination.

I'll go over what Donald Beattie and some of the others shared with me. Most said I could openly discuss information passed along. That said, some information I shall not disclose, and one person explicitly told me not to write to him anymore, nor did he want me to share any information we had exchanged. So of course, no problem, I honor that.

reply to post by choos


This is interesting choos and I have struggled to make sense of it. Say it was the laser from McDonald, it should look blue-green. That said, it may have been an intentionally vague comment to suggest they saw the McDonald finder beam. Recall, everyone expects them to see it.

reply to post by tpsreporter


Actually tpsreporter, it was not students operating the laser. Rather, it was a group of very talented, world class astronomers.

Lick Observatory was packed that evening with media personal. As the plan was to hit the LRRR and confirm a photon return right then and there while Neil was on the moon, the thinking was that of all the things that would happen that evening, this would be among the most dramatic. You know, ZAP!!!! My God they really are up there, and here's a bit of red light to prove it !!! Just bounced back from those guys !!!!

In terms of the men that were directly involved; news.ucsc.edu... I mentioned Joseph Wampler already. He was a telescope specialist per se. Not that he was not an astronomer as we know astronomers in a conventional sense, but a strength of Professor Wampler's was his capability operating/directing a scope. This is why he was there that evening. Joe Wampler was assisted by Remmington Stone, a scope technician extraordinare. If you have not taken the opportunity to read Stone's piece referenced in my opening post, you really should, it puts much of this in some perspective. Not that Stone's account is gospel, but it will get you sort of jump started as regards all of this.

Lloyd Robinson was the project's computer guy. "Catching" the ruby red photons was a timing issue more than anything else. When the Lick staff was having trouble catching the photons, Robinson, being the scope/computer specialist hit on the idea that if they changed the timing "window", they might catch the photons they seemed to be missing, and so they did. As it turned out, the Jet Propulsion Lab staff that did the programming used the Lick parking lot location and not the telescope location for the site of photon origin and return, hence the timing problem. That is how the story is told. I suspect JPL intentionally bugged the system so the landing site location would remain unknown for a while. We can go into that more later if you like.

Professor Miller was in charge of fielding media questions that night. Read the article referenced just above there. Military guys told Miller, Wampler, Robinson and others to keep their mouths shut about 00 41'15" north and 23 26' 00" east. The reason being, were the location disclosed, then the Ruskies could use the LRRR themselves in their own calculations of measuring the distances across the great oceans, and as such, the distances to our cities, in the most precise of terms. I believe this was only partially true, By 1969, the Ruskies had other means of measuring the great ocean distances. I will say more as regards this later.

When I became interested in Apollo, the first non medical subject I studied with enthusiasm was this one, the coordinate confusion issue. I began to write to Professor Wampler and he wrote back, informing me about details not generally available in mainstream publications. Nothing secret, just clarifying stuff. For example, he picked up the phone and received the call from Houston that night. According to Professor Wampler, NASA had told him they would be provided with the Eagle's landing site coordinates to within an accuracy of tens of feet. This is what one would expect more or less given the background on all of this. So it was that kind of thing he helped me with in learning about the mysterious goings on that night.

At any rate, these guys were and are players, big time. NOT !!! students.... That said, very approachable. Read the articles about them I referenced. It is not much, but you can feel a bit of their magic, such TALENT!!!!

reply to post by decisively


i dont know what it was neither, thought maybe some reflection of light from sun but i dont think that is possible, since i dont know the orientation.

but im sure it would have caused some confusion.

reply to post by mrwiffler


mrwiffler,

One of the most revealing books on the "science of Apollo" is Donald Beatties TAKING SCIENCE TO THE MOON: LUNAR EXPERIMENTS AND THE APOLLO PROGRAM. Below you'll find an off the hook interesting comment by Beattie from his book in which he confirms that going in, they thought they would not have too much trouble successfully targeting the laser that big "first landing" night. Note how Beattie and the other scientists were under the impression the landing site coordinates were unknown and indeed, it was some of their work post return to earth that provided the relevant data interpretation to "find" the Eagle. However, Joseph Wampler and the Lick staff tell us they had 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east all along. As such, Beattie and colleagues were gamed as well that night and were even under the impression their work was needed to find the Eagle after the astronauts returned July 24.

"In the meantime we were monitoring the signals sent back by the passive seismic experiment and attempting to find the LRRR that the astronauts had left behind. This latter operation was not as easy as we expected, since the exact location of the landing site was not immediately known. Mike Collins had attempted unsuccessfully to locate the LM from orbit using the command module sextant. After analyzing the flight data and the returned photographs, we passed our best estimate to the LRRR PIs, and the LRRR was found on August 1, 1969, by the Lick Observatory in California."

Beattie was gracious enough to write back to me several times and answer my many questions. He said that it was no problem for me to share with others what he shared with me and so as I go along in this thread I may from time to time discuss Beattie's book and what he shared with me by way of personal communication.

reply to post by decisively


you are confusing the timeline, had everything gone to plan than yes they would have targetted the LM easily and on first try, maybe not though since their building was not where it was meant to be. but this wasnt the case there was an unexpected extension of the flight time due to poor landing sight.

and the time difference between touchdown and and the first range was several hours, they astronauts would have been back in the LM before they tried the ranging experiment. they did not have the coordinates of the LM until they used the reverse rendezvous radar solution. that is the coordinates that the lick observatory got. there is a time difference between when Reed was given the false coordinates that was 4 miles off and when lick obtained the actual coordinates from the reverse radar solution.

reply to post by choos


Actually choos, I am most decidedly not confused, though Collins certainly was, in more ways than one.

Michael Collins himself if you please, from the APOLLO 11 TECHNICAL CREW DEBRIEFING, page 11-2;


"The problem was I didn't know where the LM was, and the ground didn't either. There is too much real estate down there within the intended landing zone to scan on one, two, three, or four passes. On each pass, I could do a decent job of scanning one or two grid squares on the expanded map. That map is the 1:lOO 000 map called LAM 2. The ground was giving me coordinates in the grid square coordinate system that were as much as 10 squares apart. This told me they didn't really have much of a handle at all on where the LM had landed. As I say, it was just too large an area for me t o visually scan. I used AUTO optics each time I looked at the area they suggested. I never did see the LM. I don't have any suggestions for future flights. You have to know with considerable accuracy
where the LM is before you can mark on it."


Yeah, me too, I know exactly what you are thinking. I would not go the moon with these guys either. Good thing it is fraudulent. Per Michael Collins verbatim as above, HE DID NOT KNOW WHERE THE LM WAS AND NETHER DID THE GROUND. Can you believe this stuff ?

Have any doubts as regards the REALITY OF THE LOST BIRD THEME now ?

reply to post by choos


Ain't that odd, Michael Collins said as per the Apollo 11 Debriefing Report page 11-2, "The ground was giving me coordinates in the grid square coordinate system that were as much as 10 squares apart. This told me they didn't really have much of a handle at all on where the LM had landed."

They did not really have much of a handle on it all all ? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm that's funny, they gave the Lick Observatory Astronauts 00 41' 15 " north and 23 26' 00" east, the EXACT landing site coordinates, and yet, they had Collins looking all over bloody blue moon blazes. Kind of mean don't you think choose, keeping those coordinates from Michael and giving them to the astronomers. I wonder what ever would motivate such irrational behavior ?

reply to post by decisively


yes i know no one knew where the LM was the from landing and during the EVA period, their last resort was to use the rendezvous radar which gave the position of the LM 200m away.. this was their last attempt collins did not have enough free time on this last flyover to search for the LM as he was too busy with pre L/O checks, this was the coordinates i believe given to lick observatory.

reply to post by decisively


heres the thing, they tried different ways of obtaining the landing coordinates, all failed everyone knows this. lick never got any of those coordinates.

the only coordinates lick got were the ones from the rendezvous radar.

reply to post by choos


No, incorrect, again from the very first post here;


www.ucolick.org...

Click on "read first hand account" and you shall read in detail about how the Lick Observatory staff were provided with the EXACT Eagle landing site coordinates 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" right then and there when the boys were allegedly on the moon.

Don't be afraid choos, read Remmington Stone's article there.

Fascinating, No ?

reply to post by decisively


ive read it many many times.. ive explained to you that you are confusing the timeline that occured. you are suggesting that the second they landed they radioed their location to lick straight away without setting up the reflector.

only neil and buzz knew where they were houston had no idea collins had no idea, yet they were able to radio their coordinates straight to lick???

you are getting confused. there is a time difference between setting up the radar ranging experiment and getting back into the module, than finding their coordinates and relaying that information back to the lick observatory.