Student's 'Jesus' shirt sparks feud with school

reply to post by IronArm


So this student is being told he doesn't have a right to free speech, or free expression of religion, just because he's in school??? Anyone that doesn't see a problem here isn't looking at he big picture. This isn't a student forcing anyone to agree with him, or a school promoting a religion; it's simply a t-shirt, expressing HIS personal views, and he should have a right to wear it. The real issue here isn't that some find it offensive (so what?), but that there are people that feel it's alright to be told your rights can be suspended depending on your location of the moment. You can have a right to religious beliefs, or free speech, but not in such-and-such locations. Basically, that's taking away your rights. That's the crux of the issue.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


Remember, this is in Canada where they don't have a Bill Of Rights like America does, and has no right to free speech.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

What does it matter if they have their own morals as long as they aren't hurting anybody?

What you're arguing for is conformity, not individuality.

WEll, "as long as you are not hurting anyone", but you failed to take note of how some people decided their way is ok no matter what it did to others.
And again, the answer is in the very same piece I cited

Oddly enough, many who believed in relative morality at that time were outraged and absolutely sure that those who engaged in deceptive business practices ought to be punished for their unethical moral behavior. This type of reaction speaks loudly to an important truth: moral relativists have a rather dim view of moral relativism when it negatively effects them.

carm.org...

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Christians do the same thing, so really, what makes them any different? Different words don't really make people any real different if they are doing the same behavior.

Such as say:

Logic says abortion is wrong. Religion is wrong because it uses poor reasoning.

Religion: Abortion is wrong because God says so!

Really, I just can't see any real difference.

Yes I know all the canned responses, but in truth they really aren't any different than one another. They came to the same conclusion using different processes, but the end result is still the same.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

Christians do the same thing, so really, what makes them any different? Different words don't really make people any real different if they are doing the same behavior.

Such as say:

Logic says abortion is wrong. Religion is wrong because it uses poor reasoning.

Religion: Abortion is wrong because God says so!

Really, I just can't see any real difference.

Yes I know all the canned responses, but in truth they really aren't any different than one another. They came to the same conclusion using different processes, but the end result is still the same.

According to your ideological pov, cannibalism is just another cultural practice and there is nothing inherrently wrong with humans eating other humans. Who is to say if it is really hurting a human to eat him? I mean if the other guy is suffering, aren't you just putting him out of his misery? That is a classic example of moral relativism. I mean in a survival situation people do resort to such things. Whoever is the strongest survives. Isn't that what is called "situation ethics"? And do not humanists subscribe to situation ethics?

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


Speaking of abortion, you are suggessting that there is no moral absolute regarding the killing of a live fetus, and all the justifications that people come up with (ie that it will make the woman's life miserable or that the unborn baby will live a miserable life because it is unwanted, which is really just more situational ethics) make more logical sense than that which is written in our inward parts that we know instinctively but some people still believe that the baby's life is unimportant.

I've never heard of situational ethics.

And cannibalism is outlawed for good reason. Because sometimes, a person is murdered to be eaten. Not to mention, there is a whole slew of health problems that comes with it, so no, cannibalism is not a harmless activity. Everybody else wants to believe that there can't be UFOs at all. And we all know that science says you have to believe what science says to believe.

Let me put it this way, if a person wants to believe that UFOs are alien spacecraft even though there's no evidence to back it up, what does it harm? Is it really so irrational?

Is it really so irrational to believe in something else that a whole group believes?

Why do we have to conform to one way of thinking? Because a deity says so? Why can't we determine our own path for ourselves?

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
I've never heard of situational ethics.

And cannibalism is outlawed for good reason. Because sometimes, a person is murdered to be eaten. Not to mention, there is a whole slew of health problems that comes with it, so no, cannibalism is not a harmless activity. Everybody else wants to believe that there can't be UFOs at all. And we all know that science says you have to believe what science says to believe.

Let me put it this way, if a person wants to believe that UFOs are alien spacecraft even though there's no evidence to back it up, what does it harm? Is it really so irrational?

Is it really so irrational to believe in something else that a whole group believes?

Why do we have to conform to one way of thinking? Because a deity says so? Why can't we determine our own path for ourselves?

So now you have a problem with cannibalism because it is outlawed or because you have an inherent belief it is wrong? Which is it? Where did you get your belief? Do you think that because you believe cannibalism is bad that everyone else does?
Apparently it was done as part of ritual sacrifice in the Aztec society. Did they think it was wrong? Or did they think it was wrong and they did it anyway?

Believing in UFO's really has little to do with morality and ethics in the usual sense. Ethics has to do with such things as murder, suicide, theft and the like.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc

Get over yourself

I don't take orders, or even requests, from those I don't respect, so I reckon you're just SOL.

you start out by saying i dont insult religions equally and when i do you get your knickers in a twist, pull out the "bigot" card and people are actually staring you for it?

Hell fire... your the one that threw down the bigot card! All I did was notice it. I suppose those stars you seem so jealous of were probably from people that saw you as a bigot too.

ATS has gone WAAAYY downhill!

Yep! There certainly are a lot of bigots here, but I sure as hell won't blame ATS for your ignorance.

Im gonna jump to another conclusion and say that your trolling my posts with your ignorance.

If you consider denying your ignorance to be trolling, you finally reached a valid conclusion.

What kind of person starts defending a faith and then states they dont care that that faith stole there idea's from an earlier time?

One that hates bigots worse than he does cockroaches, or even hypocrites.

Yeah, its not really important that christianity took a peaceful religion and turned it into 2000 years of bloodshed. Who cares right?

That's a hell of a claim. Do you have any valid sources?

Idiot.

Oops! You jumped to another wrong conclusion. Nice try though!

See ya,
Milt

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
reply to post by IronArm

 

So this student is being told he doesn't have a right to free speech, or free expression of religion, just because he's in school??? Anyone that doesn't see a problem here isn't looking at he big picture. This isn't a student forcing anyone to agree with him, or a school promoting a religion; it's simply a t-shirt, expressing HIS personal views, and he should have a right to wear it. The real issue here isn't that some find it offensive (so what?), but that there are people that feel it's alright to be told your rights can be suspended depending on your location of the moment. You can have a right to religious beliefs, or free speech, but not in such-and-such locations. Basically, that's taking away your rights. That's the crux of the issue.

And what if the t-shirt was about a religion based on lots of sex and violence? It's still free speech and it's still a religion.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

Remember, this is in Canada where they don't have a Bill Of Rights like America does, and has no right to free speech.

True, but the same sorts of things happen here in the US as well. Any place it happens, it's a threat to all our freedoms.

Originally posted by Garfee

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
reply to post by IronArm

 

So this student is being told he doesn't have a right to free speech, or free expression of religion, just because he's in school??? Anyone that doesn't see a problem here isn't looking at he big picture. This isn't a student forcing anyone to agree with him, or a school promoting a religion; it's simply a t-shirt, expressing HIS personal views, and he should have a right to wear it. The real issue here isn't that some find it offensive (so what?), but that there are people that feel it's alright to be told your rights can be suspended depending on your location of the moment. You can have a right to religious beliefs, or free speech, but not in such-and-such locations. Basically, that's taking away your rights. That's the crux of the issue.

And what if the t-shirt was about a religion based on lots of sex and violence? It's still free speech and it's still a religion.

Sex and violence are not allowed in school, so that would be a separate issue, if the shirt showed those things. Simply talking about one belief or another without using those things, though, shouldn't be prohibited.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

Sex and violence are part and parcel of freedom of speech and expression. If you allow religion in school, bring on everything else.

Originally posted by BenReclused
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

Yeah, because religious folk could never be accused of bigotry could they?

I've met many religious people in my life that were bigots, but that certainly doesn't mean they all are. What's that got to do with your bigotry anyway?

Im not a bigot, the truth is i have views on organised religions that upset you, this point being proven if you cant handle people having there own opinions about these topics then maybe you should steer clear of these kinds of threads so you can avoid the emotional distress its obviously causing you. Go on, off you go, your obviously not mature enough to handle it without having a beef.

Most of em cant even think for themselves without consulting the book.
There you go again. Did the big bad Christians piss in your damn Cap'n Crunch again this morning?

There i go again? You know, traditionally in a debate your suppose to explain why im wrong but i guess because you cant actually explain you'll just try and assassinate my character instead - Its not working.

Tell you what, why dont you have your beliefs and keep them to yourself and i'll have mine and i'll keep them to myself. I wont knock on your door trying to convince you there is no good and you dont wear a T-shirt saying that my life is wasted without jesus. Seems fair to me!

Here's a suggestion for you: Put your big boy/girl pants on, and act a little more like an adult!

Again, you dont actually make any point with your reply but try and assassinate my character, your a total troll.
People like yourselves are ruining ATS imo. You dont discuss topics, you come into debates and start attacking people and not there arguments, its pathetic.

Originally posted by BenReclused

I don't take orders, or even requests, from those I don't respect, so I reckon you're just SOL.

Dont flatter yourself, i dont need respect form someone who cant even string together a valid argument to counter my own.

Hell fire... your the one that threw down the bigot card! All I did was notice it. I suppose those stars you seem so jealous of were probably from people that saw you as a bigot too.

Please reference where i first used the word bigot? Thats hilarious, you throw out the bigot card and then try and make out like i was the one that introduced it? Yano what, dont bother, not replying to you anymore. You've proven your thick thats enough for me, i dont need anyone to validate that fact - Im not gonna get a T-shirt made so dont worry.

Yep! There certainly are a lot of bigots here, but I sure as hell won't blame ATS for your ignorance.

Glad you understand its people like yourself dragging ATS through the mud. Really, hope your proud of yourself.

If you consider denying your ignorance to be trolling, you finally reached a valid conclusion.

I consider not countering anyone's argument with logic and reasoning as trolling. Your not interested in debating the subject or the opinions i have raised, you just want to call me a bigot and get starred for it. This is whats wrong with ATS.

One that hates bigots worse than he does cockroaches, or even hypocrites

Oh i think ive finally realised, its okay for you to make assumptions about me but i supposedly do the same about you and im the big bad "atheist" (im not atheist btw, inclined towards paganism but its cool, i fogive you.)

That's a hell of a claim. Do you have any valid sources?

What kind of source would you label as valid? Because im betting any kind of evidence i post will be dismissed under "this isnt a valid source because the person presenting the facts is obviously a bigot and therefore has no valid opinion" Heh.

Oops! You jumped to another wrong conclusion. Nice try though!

How can my opinion of you be wrong?


Anyway, not replying to anymore of your trolling.
Please consider leaving ATS or actually participating in threads countering peoples arguments and not just saying there wrong without listing any appropriate reasons.

Take care of yourself sweetheart,stay out of trouble

Originally posted by IronArm

For a country who's national anthem contains the phrase "God, Keep out Land",

Exactly, it says KEEP OUT

Originally posted by Garfee
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

Sex and violence are part and parcel of freedom of speech and expression. If you allow religion in school, bring on everything else.

Children are allowed to wear Gay Pride shirts (obviously a sexual context) as well as previously noted, clothing akin to Death/Gore metal, depicting violent and henious acts.

If they get to, we get to right? Thats this whole "equality" thing that everyone is killing for right?

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Well, first, you guys have to prove it is murder, and not just claim it, which is really all you guys are doing.

And the the hypocrisy to that is you guys do not value all life, and even God commands that babies be killed in the Bible, for example, chapters 9 through 14 in Isaiah. So then if he does this why would he be against abortion? The truth is he isn't. Here's another example:

Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.' Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders." So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.

Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.

Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.


When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)

While they may not be a fetus, they are a BABY, with which you guys say a fetus, no matter what stage of development, is a baby.

Secondly, never assume anything. I have lots of problems with this issue.

I believe abortion is wrong, but, I also believe that forcing a woman to give birth to a child they don't want is wrong. a persons should not be forced to be a parent. Only tyrants force women to be a slave to their biology. Yes, I know you guys do your best to define your stance as not doing that, using tricks of the language, but when it comes right down to it what you guys really are doing is forcing a woman to give birth and be a slave to her biology.

Originally posted by IronArm
Gay Pride shirts (obviously a sexual context)

Only a straight anti-gay person would make that statement.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by IronArm
Gay Pride shirts (obviously a sexual context)

Only a straight anti-gay person would make that statement.

What makes a gay person gay? Having sex with someone of the same gender. All personality aside and whatnot....logic Annee. Logic.