Student's 'Jesus' shirt sparks feud with school

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by Annee

 

I think you're just reading too much into it. I don't think the kid is being a jerk, he just likes the tee shirt. It's the other people who had a problem with it. I really don't think he was purposefully trying to instigate things, kust wanted to wear his shirt.

Did you read the update?

He wore the same shirt for 2 weeks straight - - - was basically proselytizing other students who complained that he wouldn't stop.

He was asked several times to stop and change the shirt.

He was being a jerk.

reply to post by Annee


So what?

The only thing I can think of wearing the same tee shirt two weeks straight is the hygiene.

I still don't think he was being a jerk even at that. Just wearing a tee shirt doesn't mean proselytizing.

Some people will wear the same thing for long periods of time you know.

So I just don't agree with you.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by Annee

 

So what?

I read it. I didn't make it up.

Students at the school said the younger Swinimer would often make students feel uncomfortable by preaching his beliefs.

"It started with him preaching his religion to kids and then telling them to go to hell. A lot of kids don't want to deal with this anymore," said Katelyn Hiltz, the student council vice president.

The students said the T-shirt was the last straw that led to their complaints, but it was not how the issue started.

"He's told kids they'll burn in hell if they don't confess themselves to Jesus," student Riley Gibb-Smith said.

www.upi.com...

reply to post by Annee


When I ask so what I mean it's not really a big deal that some people are making it out to be.

Originally posted by zachod
The phrase "Life is wasted without jesus" is saying believe in what I believe in, or your wasting your life. This person is very closed minded if they really believe that statement, not that it is rare for a christian to be closed minded. Nobody knows for sure what happens after we are gone, so stop jamming your beliefs down eachothers throats. I won't wear my life is wasted WITH jesus shirt, and you can leave your's at home.

The difference is that he probably isn't intentionally wearing the shirt to target the 5-10% or whatever of the student body that is atheist. The frustration with school having no real purpose or important goal, something I'm sure atheists commonly feel as well, is enough to wear a shirt that the school doesn't like, because it's at odds with what the school falsely believes is important - the miseducation of children.

An atheist wearing that shirt is directly attacking others, and the intention is more than likely a lot different. I sort of think it comes down to being too touchy and sort of an inability to move on. A life is wasted without Jesus T shirt isn't going to ruin your day. Some atheists see a Christmas tree out in the open as some sort of attack, or if associated with a government building. If you're going to call out religious people for their BS, you gotta take a look at your own. Both religious people and atheists can be bad at that, and don't want to do it. As I'm sure some replies might show.

That's why they really aren't that dissimilar in many ways.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by Annee

 

When I ask so what I mean it's not really a big deal that some people are making it out to be.

OK.

Seems after reading the article -- the T-shirt was the last straw and not the real issue.

Originally posted by Turq1

The frustration with school having no real purpose or important goal, something I'm sure atheists commonly feel as well, . .

WHAT?!?!

Again - - a believer telling Atheists what they think and believe.

At least I've been both and know what I'm talking about.

I'm an Atheist and even I find this ridiculous. The kid was just wearing a shirt. It didn't contain any profanity, explicit imagery, etc.

Just a slogan representing that kid's religious opinions.

Goddamn Canada.

Edit//

If he was wearing it to troll or to offend others, then yeah. The little brat deserves punishment.

Originally posted by Achey

Nine times out of ten its part of the loud minority of homosexual people who make a big fuss about Christians. You generally don't get anybody else caring or even remotely interested in the subject. All of my gay friends have this huge bee in their bonnet about it. Makes me laugh how they go on about the intolerance of those who model their life after the man who first said 'turn the other cheek'.

You have to be Christian yourself because you are ignoring reality. The reality of the situation is that Christians are persecuting gays. You do not see gay people petitioning to ban straight marriage of Christians do you? Are gay pride organizations getting propositions put on the ballot to let the people decide if they want Christians to be able to marry? Are those gay pride groups using propaganda to sway public opinion in favor of their cause in order to get straight Christian marriage outlawed? Your perspective is not allowing you to see a clear picture of the reality in America and I'm sure Canada, if they haven't made it legal by now. Christians are the ones persecuting gays and leading the charge to permanently prevent them from being able to marry one another by codifying it into law based solely on their religious teachings. What would you consider a Muslim organization trying to outlaw alcohol in the U.S. because their religious teachings say alcohol in a sin? Would there be cries of Sharia Law? Would you be saying the separation of church and state is misrepresented by everyone who isn't a Christian that believes the bible literally?

Imagine, a Muslim organization gets a big group of Muslim believers elected into Congress, would you be willing to say that Muslims should be allowed legislate getting alcohol outlawed due to their religious teachings saying it is a sin and that the separation of church and state protects them and allows them to legislate by their religious teachings? Perhaps, you could answer these questions honestly. I know the reaction Christians would have if Muslims were in Congress and started legislating based on their religious teachings. Those with strict ideologies are always hypocrites because no one can have all the answers unlike what some claim. It's one of the reasons humility is important because ideologies are easy to install "operating systems" for brains. Rhetoric of tolerance when in reality it's actions of oppression based on a man-made book from thousands of years ago where most thought the Earth was flat and the Sun orbited the Earth.

If I was still going to school, I would start wearing Islamic shirts that said, "Allah is the one true god, all other gods are imaginary and stupid." I'd like another shirt to say, "Allah is the only god, you will all die in the rapture unless you believe in Allah!!!" You know nothing that Christianity would contain in it's passages of the Bible. Anything highlighting the idea of, "Believe in my religion, or you will burn in hell for eternity when my 'loving' God kills all of you non-believers off the face of the Earth because you are all evil bad sinners! Love you all!" That's outside a typical Christians perspective since they are involved in the cult itself, but I think it would be great to [ush some buttons to raise awareness to the idiosyncrasies of Christianity and to also show Christians that America was not and is not a Christian founded government and the separation of church and state not only bans control of the church by the state, but also control of the state by the church, even if indirectly. It goes both ways. There is much more to this story that I can't really comment on it so I just replied to your comment since it struck me as rather ignorant and typical of some Christians, so it needed to be addressed. We all have our blinders on and each person is ignorant to something based on their ideology or world view.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by Starchild23

 

Hmmmm,,, you and only you have the right and correct understanding of Christianity.

Of Course.

Starchild is not saying that I'm sure, and I happen to agree that some people may see only the box and not what is inside of it. The true teaching is an Inner revelation by the Holy Spirit, not dependence on semantics or words. The words are there to convey a meaning but it is easy to misunderstand something, especially that which was translated from a different language and steeped in meanings lost over time.

Dear confused Canadian teen.

As a member of your school you (or your parents most likely) have agreed to give up certain personal freedoms for the good of the collective. You are bound by the rules instituted by the educational facility. You have the freedom of speech, but the school also has the right to operate according to its principles and punish you for violating their rules. By fighting the system you are only proving your own ignorance in the fact that you have already voluntarily givien up the very freedoms you are fighting for.

reply to post by Turq1


Please remember what atheism means. a...theism is the absence of belief in one or more gods. That is all atheism means. What people do who are atheist, without belief in a god or gods, is singular to themselves and not representative of anyone else who doesn't believe in sky gods. You wouldn't call someone who lodges a complaint against door-to-door Christians seeking membership in their church part of a religion of oranges if they liked the color orange. Bad example maybe think of it like this. Someone believes apples grow on trees in order to spread it's seeds and that someone lodges a complaint that only Christian beliefs are represented by the town's PUBLIC courthouse. Now, would you call everyone who though apples grow on trees in order to spread their seeds part of a religion of sexual apples? lol No, that is just a logical deduction that person has and it doesn't affect how they think or act in other subjects and situations. It is not an ideology is what I am trying to, albeit poorly, convey here. Atheists do not have an ideology, which is basically a world view in which a particular belief system has all the answers, which Christianity can be defined as. Because of those facts, atheism and atheists are nothing like Christians and their belief in Christianity, which is an ideology or more specifically a religion that is something atheists lack a belief in. The absence of a belief or belief system is not a religion itself. Just like the scientific method is not a religion. Atheism as a religion is Christian church, probably more specifically the Catholic church, propaganda meant to attack atheists and denigrate them.

This kid wore the shirt in order to antagonize those who don't believe like he does. Wearing a shirt for two weeks is absolutely unheard of and completely abnormal. The only reason to do such a disgusting thing is to do it with some motive unless you are so dirt poor you own no other shirt at which point you would probably be homeless and not attending school. If you know people who wore a shirt for two weeks straight, then I suggest you get out from under the bridge and go to a homeless shelter immediately in order to get some help. It is clear the kid wore the shirt in order to convey some type of message to someone or some group. The most logical answer would be to antagonize students lacking a belief in god(s), atheism, but since we don't have a 100% complete picture here the message could have been anything. He could have been trying to antagonize Muslims or Jews for that matter. Clearly though, his wearing that exact shirt for two weeks was meant to send a message to some person or group because no one wears a shirt for two weeks without a damn good reason and it is unlikely he has no other shirts for he would be so poor as to be homeless which would keep him from going to school in the first place. Weird story for sure.

I have to make a correcton on a post of mine. I said Australia but it's Canada, so whoopsie-daisy.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


I personally do not think I am more special than any other person. But then, although I embrace Christianity, I value the truth in other of the World's great religions. I study metaphysics and practice yoga and meditation and chanting as well. My idea about lifeis that we are all Children of the Most High and we all have the same potential to reflect as much of the Divine Image. We have individuality in God, and that means that we all have the same potential, it is simply a matter of how much of that potential we individually have outpictured. Fools are unwilling to surrender the human ego.
Here is what the bible does say about pride

King James Proverbs 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

Personally I do make mistakes like everyone else but I know that I must correct them and make amends.

But here is the specific part in the bible where it explains that mankind are made in the image and likeness of God. I don't understand why atheists have such a hard time with it.

King James Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The thing about secular humanism is that it takes away this idea that we were created in the image and likeness of God, and instead asserts that the Universe just exists and mankind created the gods out of his imagination. It is really sort of an inversion of the concept. But this is what those who deny God do.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


My idea of life is this:

Do what thou wilt at no harm to others, and the Atheist's Wager. It's a response to Pascal's Wager, and the wager states:

You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.

But here is the specific part in the bible where it explains that mankind are made in the image and likeness of God. I don't understand why atheists have such a hard time with it.

Atheists have problems with it because Christians have to prove there is a God, not just argue and claim. This video explains it much better than I can:

The thing about secular humanism is that it takes away this idea that we were created in the image and likeness of God, and instead asserts that the Universe just exists and mankind created the gods out of his imagination. It is really sort of an inversion of the concept. But this is what those who deny God do.

The mistake you're making here is this:

"If it's true for me it must be true for everybody else and must be made to be true". Which just isn't true. Everybody has different beliefs.

In short you're saying that you expect everybody to abide by the same rules as you, because the Bible says so. First, you have to prove there is a God. Secondly, you have to prove he or she or it is actually worthy of worship. And at least to me, the God of the Bible is a horrible being who has committed many crimes against humanity and is not a being I would want to worship.

And that's the biggest problem is that you have no real and hard evidence to prove that there is a God, just claims and argumentation. And just because you may have a better or more verbose argument than a non-believer or other religious person, it doesn't mean it is right or true, especially if you don't have anything to back it up in the first place.

And you see, that's what makes it a faith. Because you guys believe in something that has absolutely no way to be proven.

And faith is something that has to be felt from within. If it can't be felt then there can't be faith and without faith there can be no belief. You can brow beat a person over the head and try to convince a person until you're blue in the face, but if a person can't feel it, they can't believe it, and if they say they do then all they're doing is just giving you guys lip service, i.e. telling you guys what you want to hear.

But you see, in reality, people don't have to believe what you believe. When you understand that, then maybe you'll understand people better, and maybe your frustration will end and you'll live a happier life.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone

The problem is, people don't want to leave their prejudices behind. All people want to do is yell and scream at each other and force each other to conform to their beliefs. It's hip and it's trendy and it's fun to do.

You are absolutely correct with that statement! It earned you another star from me!

Here are some of the more extreme examples I've found in this thread:

Yep, the troll strikes with his usual bag of dirty tricks.

I love it when you're the great Christian defended against those awful Satanic child entrail eating atheist!

You Christians are the ones who took this off topic with your personal attacks and hypocritical criticisms of anybody who isn't Christian.

You're just another Christian bully like everybody else.

Post by EvilSadamClone

I consider you a troll because you use dirty tricks in order to turn a person's comments against them. And you think it works, but it doesn't really, and it shows how dishonest you really are since you continue to use them. I do know a few things about dishonest tricks in discussing a subject and can always spot them right off the bat. You've been using a lot of them. You often lie as well.

If you were to actually use a little bit of reason and facts instead of constantly badgering me maybe I would have more to say about you than just calling you a troll.

Post by EvilSadamClone

You Christians believe that you are so special special people who are immune to being criticized and offended. This thread proves it, because, you are whining and complaining about people criticizing you and saying that nobody should criticize you under any circumstance and that any and all criticism of Christians victimized and oppresses you. You guys really go off the deep end with Dan Savage and started insulting and berating him and anybody else who agreed with him in any way shape or form.

And you Christians never under any circumstances protest the real bullies among you, at least to my knowledge. A good example of this is when I posted that vid of the radio show and all those callers were going on ranting about homosexuals and how bad they are. You just whine and complain about others who protest and criticize you.

None of you Christians condemned it but instead tried to deflect, deny and attack it. Yet somebody like Dan Savage is critical, then you guys go off the deep end and insulting him, never addressing the valid points he brings up.

Post by EvilSadamClone

How does that foot taste?

Also: I'm still waiting for you to back up your claims of my dishonesty. That's all I've ever badgered you about. You can't do that though, can you?

Cheers,
Milt

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


You have just demonstrated exactly the philosophy of humanism...i.e. that there are no moral absolutes, that everything is just what you want it to be. Thanks for making my point for me.

Summing up the relative moral philosophy, Frederick Nietzsche wrote, “You have your way, I have my way. As for the right way, it does not exist.”

In modern times, the espousal of moral relativism has been closely linked to the theory of evolution. The argument is, in the same way that humanity has evolved from lesser to greater biological organisms, the same process is in play in the area of morals and ethics. Therefore, all that can be ascertained at present (and forever) is that there is no absolute or fixed certainty in the area of morality.

Following this argument to its logical conclusion causes consternation among many, even those who espouse moral relativism. Paul Kurtz, in the book The Humanist Alternative, sums up the end result this way: “If man is a product of evolution, one species among others, in a universe without purpose, then man’s option is to live for himself”.

A grand example of this philosophy in action can be seen in the 2007-2008 meltdown that occurred in the American financial and banking industry. Those who taught relative morality in their philosophy and business ethics college courses proceeded to live out those teachings on Wall Street and in other corporate avenues, taking risks, not representing the truth properly, seeking monetary gain, etc, with the outcome being devastating for those who were on the receiving end of their relative (and financial) morality.

carm.org...

So let's review, you are the one here who seems to think that there is no moral absolute and that everyone should just live according to their own values.
Again, thanks for making an excellent example.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc

Yeah, because religious folk could never be accused of bigotry could they?

I've met many religious people in my life that were bigots, but that certainly doesn't mean they all are. What's that got to do with your bigotry anyway?

Most of em cant even think for themselves without consulting the book.

There you go again. Did the big bad Christians piss in your damn Cap'n Crunch again this morning?

Tell you what, why dont you have your beliefs and keep them to yourself and i'll have mine and i'll keep them to myself. I wont knock on your door trying to convince you there is no good and you dont wear a T-shirt saying that my life is wasted without jesus. Seems fair to me!

Here's a suggestion for you: Put your big boy/girl pants on, and act a little more like an adult!

See ya,
Milt

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


What does it matter if they have their own morals as long as they aren't hurting anybody?

What you're arguing for is conformity, not individuality.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


Great post.

And for all those who say - - "Once you go Jesus - you can't go back".

From Missionary to Atheist - - The Pirahã: People Who Define Happiness Without God

Now, what’s wrong with this picture? Well, I want to tell you from my own experience, and going to the missionary field. I now have a Ph.D. in linguistics. I mainly write about the intersection of language and culture, and that has nothing to do with God. But when I first went to Brazil in 1977, my only degree was an undergraduate diploma in “Bible and Foreign Missions” from the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago.
ffrf.org...