If not OWS then what?

reply to post by seberhar

That is very true. I find myself unable to debate it sometimes because I get so emotional about it. So my misinterpretation of your posts aside, would you mind elaborating on your original post?

Certainly. It is my firm belief that protest is really nothing more than a limp wristed way of admitting helplessness. It is pointless to ask tyrants to play fair. I will say this, any actual networking between individuals committed to breaking away from a closed system doomed to entropy is about the only good thing I can see coming from this "OWS" movement.

However, I remain certain that our best and surest bet of ending our dependence on an out of control government, a "quasi-public" federal reserve, and corrupt banks is through individual action. What I mean by action is that individuals refuse to do business with any bank what-so-ever. Screw their ATM's. Screw their silly checking accounts. Hell, if individuals stood tall and demanded employers begin paying in cash, or even stronger still in gold, this would have a much stronger effect on the tyrants, and a perplexing one of which they could not possibly use the strongest military in the history of the world to quell, than protest.

Screw unemployment! If only 20% of the unemployed rejected the idea of being an employee and instead dared to enter the free and open market place as an entrepreneur, this would actually help decrease unemployment in the long run. While there will no doubt be those who fail, there will also be those who succeed, and their success guarantees they're no longer shackled by the slavery of "labor".

These are just a few suggestions that demand much of each individual. It is far easier to "occupy" a street and pump fists in the air and scream "I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore" than it is to actually get over being mad and use rational thought to design strategies that will allow individuals to flourish and prosper without any permission from the state, or federal governments.

Non-acquiescence. Do not comply with tyranny! Quietly and resolutely flourish and prosper. Easier said than done, I understand, but far more effective than sparkling fingers versus folded arms across chest to perpetuate leaderless leadership.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by seberhar
If not OWS then what?

A job.

That's the same kind of broad brush painting as calling the TPM racist hillbillys.


I thought "Deny Ignorance" was supposed to be our code.

reply to post by seagrass


And he's supposedly a MOD, clearly he's setting a good example

reply to post by seberhar


I'm all for any protests that end the fascist regime we live under.
Time to get back to fair and free markets, and the best way to do that is to end Big Government.
Then, the Banker and Corporate politicians that go into politics will have one less place to go to steal from us and will have to fend for themselves in an open market rather than at the expense of my and everyone else's tax dollars.

Any light shown on the corruption involved in a plus in my opinion.

reply to post by stanguilles7

That is as impossible as it would be for you to prove they ARE part of 'occupy'.

Of course, the quite noticeable difference between you and I is that I offered up evidence of actual damage caused by "occupiers" while you've simply made a dubious claim, now backpedaling and claiming it would be impossible to back up your claims which begs the question, what makes you so sure you're right? Is there no evidence at all that you can provide? You made an assertion, the burden of proof is upon you regarding that assertion.

But if you want to ignore the media reports showing regular people confronting these 'anarchists' (anarchists who, btw. show open contempt for 'occupies' peaceful tactics') that is your own doing. Look over my posts in these occupy threads. I've provided TONS of evidence of just that.

What an odd coincidence that you claim to have offered up "TONS" of evidence in other threads, just not in this one. Doh!

I never said " every single "occupier" is innocent". You appear to be very good at straw men.

You appear to be very good at making baseless claims, including your claim of "straw men".

I merely stated your claim that they ALL are part of occupy is not truthful.

That, my friend, is what an actual straw man argument looks like. Go ahead, dig up that post where I supposedly claimed that ALL the vandalism was caused by occupiers. Do you dare?

Funny you demand evidence from me, yet provide none of your own.

Except for all the links I provided. Funny as in ha ha funny?

You dont debate facts.

Is that what you're doing right now? Debating "facts"?

You argue straw men and false dichotomies, wile demanding evidence for things you yourself cant prove or disprove.

argumentum ad ignorantiam

Is high school out for the day?

I give up. Is it?

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


That was really well said. I agree with all of that. In an ideal world this would be the logical thing to do. But in a country full of lazy apathetic people, we would need the majority to be on board with this sentiment, no? So at the very least OWS, which started with a few hundred people, has grown to hundreds of thousands nationwide. And when you factor in the global numbers of people protesting political and economic tyranny the number is much much higher.

I don't see a plausible way to get these apathetic uninformed people to all of a sudden buck the system and leave banks when we're all so dependent on them. And at the same time, this movement is still very young. The number of participants is still growing. Even if every "occupier" were to leave their bank today, the majority of the country wouldn't do a thing. So it wouldn't really have a huge impact. National Bank Transfer Day was an effort mostly driven by OWS and it's effects were pretty minimal:

link

So until there are enough people united to do what you suggest, nothing will happen. So at the very least, the fact that OWS has brought so many people together (albeit in a fairly unorganized and crude manor), at least it signifies that such a unification might be possible, no?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Individual non-acquiescence to managed economy, the federal reserve and banking, as well as every act of tyranny both federal and state governments are guilty of.

one of the most powerful weaponds against corpratism is consumerism,
let me explain,
when corperations put profits above all else, that is their weekness,
they require us to consume for them top make profits.

we must noy buy the products of companies who seek control,
they must be starved of our purchases in order to slay the corperate beasts.

any corperation not seeking to seceretly right legislation for thier own purpose should be rewarded with our consumerism.

not to celebrate consumerism per say, but to vote with our choices ands purchases against seceret legislation that benifits the 1% at the expense of liberty choice and a free market.

their greed is their weekness,
public perception is their comoflauge,

investigate ALEC find out who seeks to rewrite america into a corpate image of a nation and once again use the free market to slay the beast of corperate fashism

be americans buy american and dont buy from companies who are corrupting the legislative process

vote with your wallets

its the real weekness of the greedy

xploder

reply to post by seberhar

But in a country full of lazy apathetic people, we would need the majority to be on board with this sentiment, no?

Yes, you are correct.

So at the very least OWS, which started with a few hundred people, has grown to hundreds of thousands nationwide.

How is hundreds of thousands of lazy apathetic people better than a few hundred?

I don't see a plausible way to get these apathetic uninformed people to all of a sudden buck the system and leave banks when we're all so dependent on them.

Expedience has long been one of the greatest enemies to individual unalienable rights. When it is no longer expedient to remain dependent upon this closed system, lazy apathetic people will begin to change their tune.

National Bank Transfer Day was an effort mostly driven by OWS and it's effects were pretty minimal:

I would like to first point out that a "bank transfer" is not the same as refusing to do business with banks at all. I would secondly like to point out that I pulled away from the banking system in the early 1990's. For the past four years I have been operating my own business, and I refuse to accept anything other than cash. I will not accept checks. I will not accept credit cards. I will not accept Paypal. If my clients want to electronically wire me the funds they can do so through Western Union at their expense.

Has this stubbornness on my part been easy? Hell no! Have I lost clients because of this? Hell yes! However, as of six months ago I had my third client also pull away from banks. None of them are claiming any association with "OWS". I also have had a few friends do the same, none claiming any affiliation with "OWS". This is not to dismiss OWS's largely symbolic, only an attempt to make sure that those individuals who were all ready pulling out of banking long before this movement do not get dismissed either.

So until there are enough people united to do what you suggest, nothing will happen.

The beauty of individual effort is that it is not dependent upon unity. When individuals are ready to act as they must, they will.

So at the very least, the fact that OWS has brought so many people together (albeit in a fairly unorganized and crude manor), at least it signifies that such a unification might be possible, no?

I'm sorry, but no. I cannot see how a unified movement of lazy apathetic people is any better than an individual lazy apathetic person, possibly even worse.

I strongly defend the unalienable right of all people everywhere. Because of this, I strongly defend all people's right to peaceably assemble, and as skeptical as I am of protest, to protest. Protest can be cathartic, but non-acquiescence is truly therapeutic. Of course, many therapies come with painful side effects. Such is life and growing pains.

OK. Americans are, as a majority, lazy and apathetic... I don't necessarily agree that it's a majority, but it is certainly far, far too many...

Using that as a premise, what do you do to awaken them from their apathy? What will work?

My own thoughts on this matter are pessimistic. The majority of the apathetic have no interest in changing things. They, quite simply, don't give enough of a damn to be bothered.

Does that mean we stop trying? When it begins to hurt, people will begin to rise up. Until that time, you, or rather we; are holding the line. Fighting the good fight for the ones who follow us.

That means setting high standards of behaviour, and doing everything you possibly can to hold all involved to those standards.

I seem to recall that events like these utilize marshalls to police them. ...as painful as it may be, those marshalls must work with law enforcement to control the ones who are only there to cause problems. This sets an example, and shows those fence sitters that you are to be taken seriously, and aren't merely there to vandalize, and cause a ruckus.

I know, or hope rather, that the vast majority are there to try and send a message. That's lost when all we hear about is the damage caused.

Perception.

reply to post by seagull

Using that as a premise, what do you do to awaken them from their apathy? What will work?

Patience...lot's of patience, and a devastating blend of stubborn persistence and erudition. At least that is what I am counting on.

My own thoughts on this matter are pessimistic. The majority of the apathetic have no interest in changing things. They, quite simply, don't give enough of a damn to be bothered.

When asked in a recent poll which is worse for the country, ignorance or apathy, 49.5% of the respondents answered they did not know, and another 49.5% answered that they did not care. Of course, 78.76% of all statistics are made up on the spot, so...

People do give a damn. They may not give a damn about the things you or I may want them to give a damn about, but they care, and they care deeply. If I gave up on chasing every woman who didn't give a damn about me, I would have been loved a lot less than I have been. Of course, I also have to console myself with Shakespeare's assertion "Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" but...I'm just saying.

I know, or hope rather, that the vast majority are there to try and send a message. That's lost when all we hear about is the damage caused.

Outside of defense, all rights are determined by the lack of injury (damage) caused. What good is a message that asserts it is okay to abrogate and/or derogate some people's rights as long as it is the majority doing so? The tyranny of the majority smells just as crappy as the tyranny of one, perhaps even crappier.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Our thoughts on this issue run virtually in lock step. I found that poll story hugely amusing...sad, but amusing. Was that an actual poll, or your imagination? It seems all too close to reality.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Our thoughts on this issue run virtually in lock step. I found that poll story hugely amusing...sad, but amusing. Was that an actual poll, or your imagination? It seems all too close to reality.

Horrifyingly so! It was made up on the spot for the sole purpose to amuse. Apparently my avatar creeps people out and makes me look crankier than I really am...or maybe that's just in my imagination also...as Shakespeare also once said: "Levity is the soul of wit"...wait is that "Brevity is the sole of wit"? Sigh, we all know that if it is brevity then I am probably a witless fool. Sigh...so much for erudition.

Actually, for clarification sakes my crack about it being "made up on the spot" was me riffing on some fairly old jokes that came from some other imagination, I just don't know who to credit for those jokes.

reply to post by XPLodER

one of the most powerful weaponds against corpratism is consumerism, let me explain, when corperations put profits above all else, that is their weekness, they require us to consume for them top make profits.

Respectfully my friend, consumerism is not the same as buyer. I know full well you know which one of the two has the most power.

I am not clear when people went from being "buyers and sellers" to corporations and consumers, but I am clear that thoughts are things and it was only a matter of time that after constantly bombarding a populace with the indoctrination of consumerism that people would develop a sense of entitlement and expect to be able to down load for free what they once paid for. That is a true consumer, and while the effect has a power all its own, it is a self defeating power.

we must noy buy the products of companies who seek control, they must be starved of our purchases in order to slay the corperate beasts.

Such is the power of the buyer, not the consumer. Buyers purchase, consumers consume.

any corperation not seeking to seceretly right legislation for thier own purpose should be rewarded with our consumerism.

There has always been, and will always be small to mid-size sole proprietorships that more than likely deserve your rewards than most corporations. Corporatism is not capitalism.

not to celebrate consumerism per say, but to vote with our choices ands purchases against seceret legislation that benifits the 1% at the expense of liberty choice and a free market.

Corporations are antithetical to a free market. A corporation is a chartered entity granted permission by the state to exist. You and I need no such permission in order to operate within a free market, and yet...so many tragically believe otherwise. Herein lies the true problem and no amount of "occupation" will fix this problem.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

What is the goal for OWS and how will they realise when their goal is complete?

I definitely agree with many of the concerns of OWS, but they lack a clear goal and have no leadership to articulate the message. I saw video of yesterdays protests and they were having 3 separate general assembly meetings all at the same time. It just seems like no way of running a successful protest.

I think when we look at OWS, what we want to see is a united front working for change - but what we're really seeing is just a symptom. A reaction

A reaction to crap coming in from too many directions at once then hitting the fan in a big way. There's too much going on right now and whether or not any of it is in reality within our control, it all feels beyond our control. Our reaction is understandably messy. That reaction became a bandwagon. Some people have their hearts in it - some are going along for the ride

It's not functional - but that doesn't mean it isn't useful. I think the protest will be refined until it no longer looks like mayhem - maybe it won't even look like a protest anymore - it might just evolve into direct action

It accomplished a lot - it's got all sorts of people talking and thinking that weren't even concerned before. I think it had to play out the way it did. It was like a fever - and the fever finally broke

reply to post by seberhar


Biggest problem with OWS -- no strategy. Sitting peacefully in park -- the people behind that which they protest could think of no place they'd rather have them be! Is loitering for a year vs. a month going to have a different outcome?

Now to be clear, I am pro OWS. But they need clear goals/a strategy.

It is clear the people they are up against have made money the core of their everything. It seems obvious then to use money (or lack of, in this case) against them. Has OWS made any effort to educate the public about voting with our dollars? Is there a website I can go to yet to look at a checklist for company x in order to decide if I want to support them as a consumer? This seems like a clear first step to me (educating the public about credit unions over banks, and giving them information about companies so that they don't have to support the ones pillaging the Earth/people).

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by seberhar

 

I'm sorry, but no. I cannot see how a unified movement of lazy apathetic people is any better than an individual lazy apathetic person, possibly even worse.

I strongly defend the unalienable right of all people everywhere. Because of this, I strongly defend all people's right to peaceably assemble, and as skeptical as I am of protest, to protest. Protest can be cathartic, but non-acquiescence is truly therapeutic. Of course, many therapies come with painful side effects. Such is life and growing pains.

Well from my personal experience with the baltimore group, no one there was apathetic. They at least cared enough to learn about how our country and world actually work. That's why they were there. Were some of them lazy? Yes. Were all of them lazy? No! Many of them were in works with other groups in the baltimore area to enact change within the city. They marched with a group that works to help families that are foreclosed on. They partnered with local energy groups to fight for affordable energy for low income baltimore residents. There were people who came from their 9-5 job (like myself) everyday to sit at the information booths to answer the questions to people walking by. There are lots of people involved in this that genuinely care about trying to change things and help others. I met more genuine people there in a few days then I felt I had met in my normal life in a long time.
It was also very interesting and downright refreshing to be able to bounce ideas off other people that cared about things like politics and science and history instead of talking about rappers or tv or movies or sports. There was a community library and community kitchen that basically fed all of the homeless men in the inner harbor area for a few months. And all of this was voluntary. What about that is lazy?

reply to post by seberhar


Occupy is history. The May Day fail and proof it's been taken over by plain old fashioned thugs ended Occupy.

I feel for the people who were duped. They need to learn from successful movements like the Tea Party who did it the right way.

Get permits. Engage in true protest, legally and peacefully. Clean up after yourselves. Reject fanatics and thugs in no uncertain terms. Respect everyone's Rights instead of stomping all over them. Get organized and refuse money from the same people you claim to hate.

It's either that or concede their cause only attracts nuts and thugs and that they are incapable of doing the same thing others have done. Occupy was a giant mess and fail from the word go. Then when the Unions and MoveOn took over it's a given the nuts and thugs would control it from then on.

reply to post by Blaine91555


Well it's still going on so it's not quite history yet

In my opinion some of the members of the tea party are so laughable and ridiculous that I have trouble taking them seriously. I've heard some good ideas about constitution respect but I've heard a lot that I don't like. What I don't see is the kind of excitement and conviction by its followers like I have seen from other movements. And from what I can tell, the tea party isn't the most diverse....I met people from all walks of life at occupy events. But to each his own.

reply to post by seberhar


I have my own opinion, and there is an opinion for every person on earth, so that being said, this is mine:

First, for any movement to be successful it has to have some sort of central voice. Like anonymous, the OWS has had many people claim it's ranks that make it look to some people like a joke, or even worse, a threat to the values they hold dear. This problem can only be solved when their is a voice that can speak for the movement as to whether a situation or group of people are associated with it.

Second, I think it has to have a mission that encompasses the left, right, and center mindsets. People all have their own ideas of how things should be done. If a movement is going to be successful is needs numbers that it is only going to obtain if the values and direction of the movement can ring true to more than 70 percent (preferably more) of the population. Almost everyone I know agrees that there is a problem with the way we are heading socially as a society. However, hardly anyone I know can agree on what it is that is wrong. Divide and conquer has always been one of the best mechanisms of social control that the rulers of our world have kept in their arsenal. That is why the Tea Party was hijacked by people like Sarah Palin and the far right, and the OWS has been Hijacked by the liberal left. There needs to be a voice that can rise above the divide and conquer weapon and unite most of the people.

Third, It is probably going to need a group of intelligent people that understand psychology, military, and economic matters who are unknown and hold their meetings in absolute secret. The movement will of course need an internet, social media, and other forms of media presence to get to the people. However, if the true leaders of the movement were discovered they would be squashed immediately. Therefore, mock leaders would have to be selected who can be trusted absolutely even under the worst mental and physical torture to lead the public part of the movement. We live under very technologically advanced governments. The leadership would require stealth that is possible but extremely difficult to endure in these times. When America revolted in 1776, the leaders of that movement had on their side that it took months to get any information and military from England to the Colonies. We do not have that on our side.

Finally, It would need to happen soon. Governments today have technologies that we cannot even dream of and they are advancing steadily so that something like this will be almost impossible. There is a point of no return where the governments stranglehold our lives becomes more than we could ever resist and if we have not already reached it, it is only around the corner.

In conclusion, we need an idea the likes of which this world has never seen and we that idea to re-ignite the passion and spark in average people's hearts that has been extinguished to complacency. We need true patriots and we need them now.

That's what I think anyway. Thanks for listening.

reply to post by seberhar


Short of armed revolt the only thing in our power is to stop paying our federal taxes. I propose that people change their W4 to read Exempt. Your employer can then no longer take federal taxes from your check. Take the extra money you have and put it in a local credit union. Then when tax day rolls around make a check out to your local government and give them a donation. I forgot to mention that no one should pay any bills from now on. I feel this would do more to change things than sleeping in a park.