If not OWS then what?

reply to post by seagrass


There is a degree of truth to that, mores the pity.

But if we few malcontents don't try, who will? But there are more and more malcontents every day, seagrass...why do you think that the media lapdogs, and the minor political powers are so dead against OWS, and the TeaParties? It's because they're scared of these movements...it's also why they PTB's are trying to hijack them... They are legitimate threats, or can be.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by seagrass

 

There is a degree of truth to that, mores the pity.

But if we few malcontents don't try, who will? But there are more and more malcontents every day, seagrass...why do you think that the media lapdogs, and the minor political powers are so dead against OWS, and the TeaParties? It's because they're scared of these movements...it's also why they PTB's are trying to hijack them... They are legitimate threats, or can be.

For there to be a force that is respected by the PTB; there needs to be a unified front, leaders with charisma and intellect, a solid message and a media to spread that message. All I see is a bunch of social media geeks with an ax to grind. More content to spend their days on ATS or other www. sites, complaining about how ***ty and unfair the system is. At least the OWS folks have some guts to at least take it to the streets even though the movement is so fragmented as to be almost worthless. Social and political change comes from those with true grit and courage to affect change. Not just texting or emailing your friends to watch John Stewart.

That's the way I see it anyway. When a fair number of people are willing to lay down their lives to confront the PTB; then the masses might take notice; but not until. Do you see that happening with todays generation of trendy hipsters; talking revolution while enjoying a double latte at Starbucks? I don't....

If change comes; it will come from the ghetto, tent cities, and trailer parks; from the unwashed, the hungry and the desperate.... Not from suburbia or the renovated downtowns.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by stanguilles7

 

You've a valid point. The only thing really that can be done, is to disown them. In no uncertain terms. The people on the fence must know that beyond a shadow of a doubt, you are against violence of any sort. Particularly against property and authority.

They do. Regularly. But the media mostly ignores it.

Reports of property damage to cars and local businesses in the Mission District were immediately denounced by OccupySF, which also claimed that the perpetrators were "outside provocateurs sent in to tarnish the image of Occupy prior to the May Day actions."

occupysf.org...

reply to post by AzureSky


Those who complain about damages are full of crap.

They would be livid if they were alive in the 1960s when there was much more dissent (and less fluoride in the water?).

I think OWS needs to define it's objectives. If you look at the most successful protest groups in History, from the Suffragettes to the Civil Right's movement, they have been single issue campaigns, with a clear goal and an out come they could define as a success.

For the Suffragettes the goal was the women's vote. The Civil Right's movement's goal was clearly defined as the ending of discrimination against African americans and the return of voting right's.

Even in the UK now, the most successful protest group, far more effective than Occupy London have been UKuncut. Which has clear targets, being the corporations who have not been paying corporation tax in the UK. They have managed to get more public support by concentrating on just one core issue, tax evasion.

What is the goal for OWS and how will they realise when their goal is complete?

I definitely agree with many of the concerns of OWS, but they lack a clear goal and have no leadership to articulate the message. I saw video of yesterdays protests and they were having 3 separate general assembly meetings all at the same time. It just seems like no way of running a successful protest.

Individual non-acquiescence to managed economy, the federal reserve and banking, as well as every act of tyranny both federal and state governments are guilty of.

maybe a movie could be written where hypothetically all personnal bank accounts above 5 million dollars could be deleted by some geeked out insane programmer. the wealthy would have to start all over. i guess some mom & pops could hire them at minimum wage...because like everyone keeps saying "we're all in this together"...right?
ok,ok...i haven't given that alot of crictical thought, but a good screenwriter could clean up the obvious technical mistakes

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by AzureSky

 

Those who complain about damages are full of crap.

They would be livid if they were alive in the 1960s when there was much more dissent (and less fluoride in the water?).

Uh-huh. I suppose The University of Texas is full of crap for stating:

Street vendors and local businesses who initially supported the movement on Wall Street are now victims of vandalism and abuse. Street vendors were forced to close shop when angry mobs of protestors stopped receiving free food (from local businesses and outside endorsements) ransancked and vandalized carts by spray-painting graffiti and splattering blood and urine. Local business owners receive daily death threats for not allowing OWS protestors to use their bathrooms. Those that originally allowed the use of bathrooms do not anymore due to the damages caused and also receive death threats.

Of course, this next news article is a FOX News so we will naturally have to assume this one is full of crap:

John Corstales said he planned to take the employees of his restaurant — Essex World Cafe, located a block away from Zuccotti Park — to the news conference.

“I’ll bring all my people. These protesters—they’re not even protesters, they don’t know anything—they are horrible. They break things, they steal, I have to close my bathrooms and bring customers downstairs [to employee restrooms],” he said.

“You should see what they have done to my gate, what they do every night when we are closed,” he said, referring to vandalism and damage to the exterior of his restaurant.

One of his employees said the urination and fecal matter in the neighborhood are among the worst of the problems. A construction worker who works nearby said he saw someone defecating into a newspaper, which was then rolled up and thrown across the street. Read more: www.foxnews.com...

Here's more of the same old crap from the Huffington Post:

For Tzortzatos, the "occupation" has resulted not just in a loss in business. "I've had a lot of damage from the protesters," she said. "I've had to put a $200 lock on my bathroom because they come in here and try to bathe. The sink fell down to the ground, cracked open, pulled the plumbing out of the wall and caused a flood. It's a no-win situation. If I open the restroom for one, 30 people line up outside, disrupting my business."

Every one knows that U.S. News on msnbc.com is totally full of crap so let's not take this report too seriously:

Oakland officials on Sunday were inspecting damage inside City Hall that was caused by about 50 Occupy protesters who broke in and smashed glass display cases, spray-painted graffiti, and burned the U.S. and California flags.

Crap, crap, crap! What these main stream media clowns don't want to recognize is that every single protestor involved with "OWS" is up for sainthood solemnly approved by the Catholic Church, but....aren't they really just full of crap too?

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Do you HONESTLY think the actions of a handful of people in a crowd of thousands represents the whole? Really? I found such conflation disingenuous when it related to the Tea Party, and I find it disingenuous here.

The examples you cite can all be traced to factions that are actually OPPOSED to 'occupy's' larger message of protest. To associate them with occupy is disingenuous, and work's directly in the favor of organizations using COINTELPRO tactics to discredit a large social movement.

reply to post by stanguilles7

Do you HONESTLY think the actions of a handful of people in a crowd of thousands represents the whole? Really?

Do you honestly think the damaged caused by what you claim was a handful of people now makes those claiming damages full of crap? Really?

I found such conflation disingenuous when it related to the Tea Party, and I find it disingenuous here.

I see. So you really do think that since it was "a handful of people" who caused this damage that those claiming that damage was caused are full of crap.

The examples you cite can all be traced to factions that are actually OPPOSED to 'occupy's' larger message of protest.

That's interesting. I find those who reify to be disingenuous. If you are going to make such a claim, it is a good idea to back that up with some kind of source.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


First of all please stop being so condescending. 2nd of all please contribute to my original question or go harass people elsewhere. Thank you.

Originally posted by seberhar
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

First of all please stop being so condescending. 2nd of all please contribute to my original question or go harass people elsewhere. Thank you.

First of all, if you weren't so busy being condescending and just simply scrolled up a few posts you would see the very first post I made in this thread was precisely what you are now condescendingly asking me to do now. Sigh.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Forgive me for not understanding what your original post meant. It wasn't very detailed. And yes I was a bit condescending too I apologize. I just get frustrated every time I make a thread and people just jump in and start arguing.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Do you honestly think the damaged caused by what you claim was a handful of people now makes those claiming damages full of crap? Really?

I made no such implication. I merely took exception with you trying to equate the damage done by a handful of people who arent actually part of 'occupy' (and who openly denounce 'occupy's larger efforts) with the larger movement.

You appear to be mistaking the comments of someone else in this thread with mine. Try reading glasses?

I see. So you really do think that since it was "a handful of people" who caused this damage that those claiming that damage was caused are full of crap.

Again, I said or implied no such thing. Your insistence to argue straw men show the weakness of your argument.

Your argument was that a handful of disrupters who seek chaos actually represent the larger movement. That has been shown, OVER AND OVER in this thread and several others to be totally and wholly fabricated.

The damage in Oakland, for example, to small businesses was stopped by members of Occupy Oakland, who confronted the 'anarchists' and prevented more damage.

Your insistence to equate the actions of people who are clearly there to disrupt and create chaos with a larger movement is transparent.

Originally posted by seberhar
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Forgive me for not understanding what your original post meant. It wasn't very detailed. And yes I was a bit condescending too I apologize. I just get frustrated every time I make a thread and people just jump in and start arguing.

Yet, that is not what I am guilty of, this jumping in and immediately start arguing. I answered your question, and forgive any ambiguity on that part, then replied to another members argumentative post, and again followed that up with a reply to yet another argumentative post.

No apologies are necessary my friend. This whole "occupy" thing has too many on edge.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Originally posted by seberhar
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

No apologies are necessary my friend. This whole "occupy" thing has too many on edge.

That is very true. I find myself unable to debate it sometimes because I get so emotional about it. So my misinterpretation of your posts aside, would you mind elaborating on your original post?

reply to post by stanguilles7

I made no such implication. I merely took exception with you trying to equate the dmagae done by a handful of people who arent actually part of 'occupy' with the larger movement.

I will ask you again to back up this claim that the actual damaged done was not at all caused by any "occupiers".

Again, I said or implied no such thing. your insistence to argue straw men show the weakness of your argument.

Until you can actually back up your dubious claim that every single "occupier" is innocent of actual damages caused to businesses, residents, and public buildings, then yes indeed you are most assuredly implying that the claim of damages done by "occupiers" are full of crap.

Originally posted by seberhar
If not OWS then what?

A job.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I will ask you again to back up this claim that the actual damaged done was not at all caused by any "occupiers".

That is as impossible as it would be for you to prove they ARE part of 'occupy'.

But if you want to ignore the media reports showing regular people confronting these 'anarchists' (anarchists who, btw. show open contempt for 'occupies' peaceful tactics') that is your own doing. Look over my posts in these occupy threads. I've provided TONS of evidence of just that.

Until you can actually back up your dubious claim that every single "occupier" is innocent of actual damages caused to businesses, residents, and public buildings, then yes indeed you are most assuredly implying that the claim of damages done by "occupiers" are full of crap.

I never said " every single "occupier" is innocent". You appear to be very good at straw men. I merely stated your claim that they ALL are part of occupy is not truthful.

Funny you demand evidence from me, yet provide none of your own. You dont debate facts. You argue straw men and false dichotomies, wile demanding evidence for things you yourself cant prove or disprove. Is high school out for the day?

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by seberhar
If not OWS then what?

A job.

I attended a handful of Occupy Baltimore meetings and most of the people there had jobs. I met doctors, lawyers, and teachers among others. I'm in software sales. So there I debunked your plan. Got any other good ideas?