Explain to me how Homosexuals are "born that way".

If any one of you supports people killing themselves because of the way you have treated them, you are straight up murderers.

Revolting and shameful. You are the epitome of hell on earth.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Alright, let me start off by saying I do not by ANY means have hatred toward Homosexuals. Yes, you can see my avatar very clearly to the left - but make no mistake, I love Homosexuals with all of my heart, and so does God. I am a Christian, and though I do not approve of Homosexual relations (i.e. sexual relations between same genders, lusting, etc.), I classify it as any other sexual sin - i.e., fornication, sexual immorality, adultery and lusting. Yes, that means we are ALL guilty of sin, except for those who aren't attracted to ANYTHING, because apparently there are some people out there like that.

However, I have a sincere, honest question in response to the claim LGBTs and LGBT-defenders make - that they are, for some reason, born that way. For example - we wouldn't discriminate someone who was born with a disease or something, because it isn't their fault, they had no choice, they were born that way.

So, we've all heard that argument before. First off - to be born in a certain way, we are talking about genetics, correct? So, somebody with a heart disease, possibly received that disease because of a parent, an uncle, a grandparent, etc. It was in their family - that is why you hear the commercials that say "If your family has a history of heart problems", etc, etc.

Now, here's where I'm confused. You get your genetics from your BIOLOGIC parents, correct? So.. how do homosexuals "receive" these supposed "inherent" genes.. if they got them from HETEROSEXUAL parents?

It is a proven fact, undeniably so, that there has never, EVER been a case of a homosexual couple having a biologic child - they can adopt, sure. But that child got his genetics from his BIOLOGICAL parents.

So, LGBTs and LGBT defenders, please answer this for me - where does the gene come from that makes a homosexual "born that way"?

I'm well on my way to getting a doctorate in Pyschology, so I'd like to attempt to answer your question from a scientific standpoint, as much as possible. From the research I've seen in school, homosexuality seems both innate and learned. Let me explain. You mentioned heart disease. While heart disease runs in families, it really comes down to the person's lifestyle a lot of the time (e.g., poor exercise or eating habits), but sometimes, even healthy people have/get heart disease, no matter what they do. Although it would seem that family members being gay is more of a pre-determination than anything, it's not necessarily. When it comes to genetics, it is all about predisposition and "turning on" genes. For example, if Susie's parents and grandparents are extremely gifted in the arts, Susie can be, too, since she has the genes, but only if those genes are expressed or "turned on". Things as simple as promoting Susie to use her imagination or putting her in front of an easel or in front of clay, just getting her to use her genes, so to speak, will be spark enough.

Now, this isn't necessarily true with sexuality, as in, exposing children to gay people will not necessarily "turn" children gay themselves. Sexual orientation "can be strong or weak and can be acted upon, unexpressed, or unconscious" with older children being "confused regarding when, how, and with whom to express those drives ... [switching] from one version to another ... and [initial] exclusive same-sex attraction [remaining at] only 11 percent ... exclusive a year later." (Berger, 2009). Furthermore, "A substantial number of people experiment with same-sex sexuality at some point in their lives, and a small minority settle into a life-long pattern of homosexuality." (Macoby, 1998). Just like a predisposition to addiction only means that a person has the potential to be an addict after experimenting with drugs, most children and adolescents who later identify as being gay had the genetic predisposition but had to be exposed to situations to "turn on" the gene.

Not every boy or girl who has been sexually molested by someone of the same sex will be homosexual, either, but the numbers are higher for those who have been molested or raped than those who haven't, simply because of the exposure to the incident. Also, children, especially boys, who confused their gender roles early on in childhood are more likely to identify as homosexuals later in life, yet it does not mean that all homosexuals defy traditional gender roles, nor does it mean that "cross-dressers" or transgendered peoples will necessarily identify as being homosexual, despite stereotypical representations in society.

While this seems to show that in the nature vs. nurture debate, nurture wins, that is simply not true. It is a complex relationship between genetics and society that draws out homosexual tendencies in people. It is not a simple case of one or the other. By the way, heterosexual parents don't mean anything. Oftentimes one or the other can by secrety homosexual, but are in straight relationships, due to societal and familial pressure.

(Cont'd)

(Continued from above)

I also want to address here that I have heard the argument that gay culture in Hollywood and the media is CAUSING homosexuality and that is simply not true. It doesn't work like that. However, if closeted youth or young adults feel more inspired to "come out" because it seems that society is more accepting, then it might seem so, but it isn't CAUSING it. Sexual identity, just like gender identity, is very complex and cannot be ascribed to one specific gene or cause. I don't think that any person wants to be mistreated or even killed for "choosing" a lifestyle that goes against the mainstream in such a way as to incur such hatred. No one would, for God's sake. It is the combination of several factors, all playing into each other, that develop into a sustained homosexual identity.

Also, I want to add that it is funny that homosexuality is treated as such a horrible sin, when straight people have all sorts of odd fetishes that would be considered just as--if not more--sinful. In addition, what about masturbation? Every one does it as some point or another, yet it is wrong by God, but even dogs do it. Furthermore, it is hypocritical to talk about women not being able to be on birth control, yet men waste their "seed" all the time, due to masturbation. I think that homosexuality has been singled out for one reason or another as the worst thing humans can "do" or "be", and that's just wrong. I think it has to do with promoting procreation. If everyone was gay, then who would propogate the species? That is why I think that the war against homosexuality began, as a way to assure more children being born, since it was not common practice to have surrogates,etc., back in the day.

Originally posted by Manunnaki
The egg carrier has gay people in her family. The more children she has the higher the tolerance level the womb has to one of the gender chemicals ie testosterone or estragen. the more children she has example sons the more likely the youngest is going to be homosexual. Also it depends on how much estragen the male son is exposed to in the womb. If he's exposed to alot of estragen most likely his mind will be female.

Can you support this with science/research? There is no possible way to determine who will or won't become homosexual and pinning it down to birth order is impossible. I think you are confusing gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder with homosexuality, and even GID has not been proven to be caused by abnormal amounts of sex hormones. Even the research that supports it purports that it has to do with the actual process of sexual determination in utero, as in actual sexual organs developing during the first weeks of pregnancy, and the physical changes in brain chemistry as related to such.

Originally posted by Garfee
If any one of you supports people killing themselves because of the way you have treated them, you are straight up murderers.

Revolting and shameful. You are the epitome of hell on earth.

Two points

- who is supporting people killing themselves?
- is this "murder" if such people do "support" it (horrible to support anyone killing themselves I might add)

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
Every life form on earth, generally speaking, have reproductive organs. Now...call me crazy... but I also note that they function as a way for the body to remove waste.

Sure, they can remove waste, but reproduction through sexual intercourse is not waste. It is the passing of dna from one creature to another, and creates life. Are you saying that angels have testicles full of life creating dna that is compatible with humans, but they can't procreate amongst themselves? Does that make any sense?

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by Garfee
If any one of you supports people killing themselves because of the way you have treated them, you are straight up murderers.

Revolting and shameful. You are the epitome of hell on earth.

Two points

- who is supporting people killing themselves?
- is this "murder" if such people do "support" it (horrible to support anyone killing themselves I might add)

Anybody who torments, ridicules, belittles a person for something they cant help being - even simply by telling them they can help it.

If it drives a person to kill themselves, the bullies are guilty of the death.

Sounds like you need to get in a lab and find the homosexual gene yourself.

I know gay people who have never slept with the oppisite sex and then those that have and still claim to be gay. I wonder if you can seperate sex from just having a certain compainship, maybe homosexual people don't mind having sex with the oppisite sex but would rather live their life with someone of the same sex. Talk to people and you will find most things are pscological homosexuality is not differnt.

What age your is first memory would make a big differnce with claiming that they are born that way. Who knows what happened to make them homosexual. In the end no one knows if they want to claim they were born that way, uh let them.

reply to post by Screwed


I always imagine God telling a pedophile priest to *#¥@ to hell, the priest who had an affair with the nun welcomed, and so too the one who enjoyed sex without causing harm to others. Religions are brainwashing institutions, and people believe it true as they fear for their souls, but in the process of living in fear of this, and calling it blind faith, they end up losing their souls. I said earlier in response to the OP, that its blasphemous to say sex is a sin, as it is God's doing that we have those hormones chasing through our bodies. I.e. saying sex is a sin is saying God tempts us to sin, by giving us those desires. The only time that sex is a sin is when autoerotic asphyxiation, bestiality, peodophilia, rape and incest are practiced. Sex is recreational as well as romantic and intimate, depending on circumstances, it was given to us for our benefit and not essentially to make babies with, just as the anus wasn't made just to poo, and the vulva wasn't put there to be untouched, as some religions advocate.

reply to post by mountaingirl1111


That was a brilliant summary, and you are "right on" on so many points....your gonna make a great "shrink", lol....

I think "God" could care less what peoples sexual orientation is, I do however think he cares about how we treat others, and wants us to be fair and honest.

There is nothing more wonderful then the "instinct" to love and nuture, lol, why do you think advertisers often use babies and animals to pull at our heartstrings, frankly, anyone that dislikes kids and animals is a big "red flag" to me.

I think we should all support loving families, and that comes in lots of shapes and sizes, yeah maybe didn't quite work out for me, but I do understand why my ex wanted a family...lol...just wish he would have come out of the closet, found a mate and adopted......I totally support gay couples being parents.

At the end of the day if I believe in God, which I do, my daughter is here because of him and I, and I need to focus on that, she's a really special young lady ♥ lol, but damm God kicked my azz on this one....but he gives me so may other gifts, and I did fall in Love again.....

Wish us all everything good......especially our kids and animals.....Shar...♫

reply to post by Lionhearte


Quite a simple answer to the OP...just about every human condition (behavioral, physical, sexual) is a combination product of genetics and environment. Your first mistake regarding genetics is thinking there is a specific homosexual gene, and that it would require a dominant or a double recessive "gay" gene to produce a gay offspring. Genetics itself is nowhere near that simple. There could be a large number of genes influencing hormone levels, or that part of the brain that has a significant size difference in homosexuals and heterosexuals. Those genes themselves would exist in varying combinations, resulting in a sliding scale, so to speak, of what degree of environment would lead one to "be" gay. In some, the odds would be so insurmountable as to practically guarantee homosexuality regardless of environment. In others, a large degree of environment would be necessary in order to support one "becoming" gay.
Environment includes everything from culture, to food (I.e. Soy being an estrogen booster), to medications, etc. The matter of "choice" is involved as well, of course, but think of it as a "choice" to become an NBA player. Easier and a happier life experience for someone with a natural body structure for jumping, development of muscle fibers, and of course being 6'8"m as opposed to someone with asthma, 5'7", and a muscle wasting disease.

The obviousness of what we become in all aspects of life being a product of genetics and environment (and epigenetics) should be plain for all to see. That said, I think it is obvious that for someone with such a combination as to make them "98% likely" to feel most comfortable being gay, the best way for them to live is to "be" what their genetic code, their life experience, and the consumption aspect of their body/brain chemical / horomonal makeup dictates they "should" be.
Disclaimer, I'm a straight Christian, with a solid understanding of science and logic, as well as a lifetime of observation.

reply to post by MountainLaurel


Thank you so much, that was very kind Also, thank you so much for sharing such a personal story. That could not have been easy and your attitude is incredible. Too bad more people aren't as positive and upbeat as you are That situation does occur more often than people think and it just goes to show how conditioned people are in society and how strong a hold that conditioning has, and it also shows that it has to be a natural thing, to feel the pull that strongly, to know that is the real you and to go against everything else in its pursuit. Too bad it happened the way it did for you, however.

Even gender role stereotyping shapes how we behave as men and women, fit into norms, behaviors and thought patterns that are not born with us when we are born. Certain behaviors as men and women, boys and girls, are taught and reinforced, and much is the same with sexuality or society's understanding of "norms". It is a fact that we learn how to fill our gender roles. Even transgendered people learn their gender roles; it is just that transgendered individuals feel that their actual gender is wrong and so learn the behaviors for the role they feel they should be playing. Even though society has made great strides in tolerance and understanding and scientific research, old habits die hard. It is too bad that your ex felt inclined to live a life that wasn't genuine, but I'm sure his love for you was, and in the end, it all happened for a reason and your life is changed now, positively, because of it. That is the good part

Like you, I believe in God, I just don't believe in religion. My God demands love and understanding and abhors hate, prejudice, and violence. I think that if we do our best to live in a way that promotes good nature and kindness towards others, that is the very best we can do. It is religion that has spurred bloody wars for as long as religion has existed. How can murder in the name of God be just, but loving someone, including someone of the same sex, be an abomination? I just don't get it. Love is love.

Thanks for your reply!

I don't know why it happens, but I find it very very sad.
Perhaps it's genetic, perhaps it's demonic.
Maybe both. But it is still very very sad.

reply to post by mountaingirl1111


awww thank-you so much for the lovely reply...made me cry, is that a "chick" thing...lol... gotta take pops to another doctors apt. today......man....God is testing me.

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
reply to post by mountaingirl1111

 

awww thank-you so much for the lovely reply...made me cry, is that a "chick" thing...lol... gotta take pops to another doctors apt. today......man....God is testing me.

Aww Well, try and have a nice day, regardless

reply to post by Lionhearte


Not for nothing, I give you props in the way you worded your message. You were direct and honest with your beliefs and respectful.. especially how you made the connection b/w sin and sex.. that we all sin, whether having sex before marriage or with the same gender. So, nice approach as many Christians think "Gays" are evil doers and committing sin by just being gay. So, even tho I disagree that its a sin as I am probably more Pro Gay than I am for rights for straight people.. and I'm not gay.. I just have an open heart to all sorts of people and animals having all equal rights.... I should also point out, I no longer follow my Catholic religion, I'm not an Aethiest either but I'm somewhere in between. My god is the Universe, he is not a he, or a she.. More like an "it". God is everything, God is life itself.. God is the energy that created the universe and man. now being said that, no one knows for sure what makes gay people, gay. but one thing is for certain.. its just like people who are born black, white, brown hair, blue eyes, red hair, etc.. It's not by choice. not by design either. It's just nature.

i don't believe "god" has any hand in how we are born as I just look at 'siamese twins' and see nature making a mishap. (tho some say being born as a siamese twin is enjoyable and not cruel). just depends I suppose. so since Gay is not by choice, they are born this way its gotta be somethign chemical.. however, since people are so freaked out by "different" people, no one may ever come to the realization that being "gay" could be as normal as being straight. just b/c we need to reproduce by having sex with the opposite gender, doesn't mean that nature started evolving so that same sex genders can start developing embryo's. Kinda like some dinosaurs who were a-sexual and can get pregnant without being male or female to reproduce.. like a hermaphrodite. but there is alot of evidence in nature that certain amphibians or reptiles who are male, get pregnant.. as well as their female counterparts getting inpregnated without having sex.. So, maybe before this evolution took place to have babies without reproductive organs for sex, these dinosaurs or lizards and reptiles perhaps were gay beforehand.. as funny as this may sound, it is plausable..

Originally posted by mountaingirl1111

Originally posted by Manunnaki
The egg carrier has gay people in her family. The more children she has the higher the tolerance level the womb has to one of the gender chemicals ie testosterone or estragen. the more children she has example sons the more likely the youngest is going to be homosexual. Also it depends on how much estragen the male son is exposed to in the womb. If he's exposed to alot of estragen most likely his mind will be female.

Can you support this with science/research? There is no possible way to determine who will or won't become homosexual and pinning it down to birth order is impossible. I think you are confusing gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder with homosexuality, and even GID has not been proven to be caused by abnormal amounts of sex hormones. Even the research that supports it purports that it has to do with the actual process of sexual determination in utero, as in actual sexual organs developing during the first weeks of pregnancy, and the physical changes in brain chemistry as related to such.

That research finding was mentioned in the video documentary linked to here:
video.google.com...

Homosexuals are a sexual preference, until someone else who happens to be a homosexual, says so.

Originally posted by TheFlash

Originally posted by mountaingirl1111

Originally posted by Manunnaki
The egg carrier has gay people in her family. The more children she has the higher the tolerance level the womb has to one of the gender chemicals ie testosterone or estragen. the more children she has example sons the more likely the youngest is going to be homosexual. Also it depends on how much estragen the male son is exposed to in the womb. If he's exposed to alot of estragen most likely his mind will be female.

Can you support this with science/research? There is no possible way to determine who will or won't become homosexual and pinning it down to birth order is impossible. I think you are confusing gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder with homosexuality, and even GID has not been proven to be caused by abnormal amounts of sex hormones. Even the research that supports it purports that it has to do with the actual process of sexual determination in utero, as in actual sexual organs developing during the first weeks of pregnancy, and the physical changes in brain chemistry as related to such.

That research finding was mentioned in the video documentary linked to here:
video.google.com...

Thank you, however there was only a description of the video and not an actual video there, for whatever reason, maybe my computer, so I decided to do a quick search. I have studied sexuality extensively, including homosexuality and gender dysphoria or GID and hadn't heard of this study. I found the actual study, well, what looks like a follow-up to the original, with more authors on board. Yet, I am concerned by his ability to correlate this in only 1 out of 7 homosexual men. Because of this, the results seem very, very inconclusive to me. There is a difference between correlation and causation and this does not seem like causation. You or I could pick a reason why it could be, off of the top of our heads, and correlate something to 1 out of 10 men, which makes it interesting, but just coincidental. Also, that study mentions it could be handedness (left or right dominant writing hand) and birth weight to blame in addition to birth order that "seemed to correlate" as well.

See, there are too many factors here that are being thrown around to be conclusive on any one thing. Just look at the statistical data. I'd like to see much more research on this and with a larger group of men (or women for that matter. Also, this should be done in other countries, using the same methods, before making such conclusions. Unfortunately, because there is such a fight over homosexuality in our world, the tendency to jump on board with studies "confirming" either side is just regurgitating information and studies that are not founded on solid ground, making the issue grayer instead of clearer. I will admit, however, handedness, according to a few studies, has shown to correlate to GID, but it's still inconclusive. You cannot say, with all certainty, that any of this shows or proves causation.

There is the study in its entirety.

courses.biology.utah.edu... ness%20in%20the%20%0Adevelopment%20of%20male%20homosexuality.pdf

I dont believe you can explain something like this... I cant explain why I love females, but it just happened that way....

And for those who LOVE females, go check out the new Kate Upton video thats trending all over the internet... Where she does the Cat Daddy dance...she is so so fine...

Here Ill post it

www.youtube.com...