Substitutionary sacrifical atonement: Is it moral?

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Well, considering that YHWH taught Abraham and his decendants how to sacrifice the animals he created to pay for their blood debt, yes it was once moral because it was the only way men could pay their sin debts.

So, was it moral because god said so, or god says so because it's a moral thing to do? Maybe it was just a superstitious ritual carried over from a belief of appeasing the gods for healthy crops, weather and prosperity.

edit on 12-4-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)

Thats something you need to ask him when you see him, if you can manage to speak while being in awe of him.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
There wouldn't be a choice in Judaism, the man would be stoned to death. Cant marry a dead man.

Where does it state this? And how convenient... he gets stoned to death when he rapes you, but when it's your daughter there's a possibility she could marry him.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I didn't say that. I said her not being a virgin would make it impossible for her to marry in that system. Back in that time and age men didn't marry non-virgins, they would usually have to live as a whore the rest of their life. I'd rather provided for her and her son than see her have to do that for survival.

And again the problem is within humanity at that time. Their morality, imo, was wrong.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Why are you judging me? You're very ignorant to that culture and mindset, that's not my fault, I'm attempting to educate you some. If you wish to remain ignorant I can leave.

Morality changes with culture? It is relative?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Society shunned a woman who wasn't a virgin in that day.

Morale relativism?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Physics isn't required in a discussion of morality and philosophy.

Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman
If you take the position that Jesus is God. Then you have a situation where God is taking responsibility for His actions. He's sacrificing Himself for the sins of the species he created, rather than continue to ask for the blood of innocent animals.

edit on 12-4-2012 by wearewatchingyouman because: clarity

First, I don't take that position. There are a few members on this forum that believe Jesus wasn't God and can back it up with scripture.

Second, are you claiming the only way for an omniscient, omnipotent being to atone for his own mistake [at least you're the first to admit he's made a mistake] is to sacrifice himself to himself on a cross where he'll get tortured by his own children which in turn spills the blood of his fleshly body? You're okay with that?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Do not mock me because of your extreme ignorance to Physics.

Physics? Sounded more like Sci Fy. But who knows, you could be right.

reply to post by novastrike81


Sounds like god has some issues with self mutilation. He should really see someone about that.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Well, considering that YHWH taught Abraham and his decendants how to sacrifice the animals he created to pay for their blood debt, yes it was once moral because it was the only way men could pay their sin debts.

In regards to the jewish rituals, basically you take an innocent clean animal like a lamb, ram or goat and sacrifice it and the shedding of it's blood covers your sins for the day from you, and it takes your sins onto itself and it takes your place in sheol, also called a scape goat sacrifice and this ritual was a prophetic action prophecying Christ taking our sins onto himself, but unlike the sacrificial lamb, goat or ram God didn't stay dead. His body died and he resurrected himself because death couldn't keep him.

Thanks for your thoughts. But, imo, might does not make right.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And in another society people will eat other people for dinner.

That is correct. Do you see that as moral? I don't. Do they? Probably. It's relative.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
So what are you basing your moral judgments on?

How I would want to be treated.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Physics isn't required in a discussion of morality and philosophy.

It does when you get into the nature of time and the "free will" vs "predestination" argument, it's the foundation before the discussion can proceed. And I disagree about Philosophy.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Do not mock me because of your extreme ignorance to Physics.

Physics? Sounded more like Sci Fy. But who knows, you could be right.

Not me dude, Einstein.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
It's the nature of time again. The Bible prophesied Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, does that make Judas innocent, just fate playing out he couldn't control?

Didn't Harry Potter also fulfill a prophecy? Didn't ancient greek heroes fulfill some prophecies?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
It's free will from our perspective, predestinated from God's. Don't mock me either because you don't understand Physics.

Since it is predestined from god's perspective, what does it matter what we do? It's already all written out like a story. Before I was created, I was destined to burn. So in other words, I was created to burn.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Thats something you need to ask him when you see him, if you can manage to speak while being in awe of him.

I think it'd be wonderful to speak with this being. If he is omnipotent, why couldn't he make a way of being able to speak to him without freaking out?

reply to post by Hydroman

Where does it state this? And how convenient... he gets stoned to death when he rapes you, but when it's your daughter there's a possibility she could marry him.

You asked if a man raped me. "you" The penalty for that was stoning, I'm a man.

And it''s not relativism, you asked a Biblically based question about rape. You got a Biblical answer that needed to be placed into the context of their culture for a MORAL answer.

In today's day and age, she could marry whoever she wanted. In that culture I'd ask her, and if she didn't want to I'd take care of her myself for life instead of watch my daughter have to resort to being a whore to survive and provide for her child.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Not me dude, Einstein.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You asked if a man raped me. "you" The penalty for that was stoning, I'm a man.

Where is that law stated?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And it''s not relativism, you asked a Biblically based question about rape. You got a Biblical answer that needed to be placed into the context of their culture for a MORAL answer.

No, it's relative to the cultural time period, is it not?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
In today's day and age, she could marry whoever she wanted. In that culture I'd ask her, and if she didn't want to I'd take care of her myself for life instead of watch my daughter have to resort to being a whore to survive and provide for her child.

So, you don't see how it is relative to cultural time periods?

Also, you've still not made a statement on beating your servants.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
It's free will from our perspective, predestinated from God's. Don't mock me either because you don't understand Physics.

Since it is predestined from god's perspective, what does it matter what we do? It's already all written out like a story. Before I was created, I was destined to burn. So in other words, I was created to burn.

:bnghd:

Example: God prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, was Judas culpable or innocent? Was it fate he had no control over or was it Judas's free will to choose to betray Christ.

Point being, God exists outside of time, He can see the end from the beginning:


"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"


That's how He authenticate His message to us, so we know it came from Him. Only God inhabits eternity and can see the end from the beginning, He is not bound by time.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Example: God prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, was Judas culpable or innocent? Was it fate he had no control over or was it Judas's free will to choose to betray Christ.

It was already played out before time. It's like a book. Do the characters in the book have free will? God is the author of this book. We are the characters. Speaking of illusions, maybe free will is the illusion? Why can't it be?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Point being, God exists outside of time, He can see the end from the beginning:

So can the author of his own book.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
That's how He authenticate His message to us, so we know it came from Him. Only God inhabits eternity and can see the end from the beginning, He is not bound by time.

Again, why did he use time in his creation? How did he rest on the 7th day if he does not exist in time?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
It's the nature of time again. The Bible prophesied Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, does that make Judas innocent, just fate playing out he couldn't control?

Didn't Harry Potter also fulfill a prophecy? Didn't ancient greek heroes fulfill some prophecies?

That's absurd. Harry Potter wasn't a real person who fulfilled things written down hundreds or thousands of years before he "lived", (he didn't).

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
That's absurd. Harry Potter wasn't a real person who fulfilled things written down hundreds or thousands of years before he "lived", (he didn't).

Coincidentally, that's what the Jews say about Jesus more or less.