Substitutionary sacrifical atonement: Is it moral?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Not exactly, He isn't bound by our 4 dimensions. He existis in all dimensions, but is bound by none of them. The current understanding is we live in 10+. The 3 spacial dimensions and spacetime the 4th is what we call "reality", but we cannot see the other 6 because they exist in strings smaller than a particle of light. We can only perceive them by indirect means.

What is an indirect means to perceive them?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Had enough Chinese yet? God exists outside time, He exists in eternity. There is no such thing as time in eternity it doesn't exist. Time is an illusion.

Time is not an illusion. Time exists in our reality. It just depends on the reference points. When you move your hand, it took a certain amount of time for your hand to move. That is real. Or, am I crazy?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Absurd! You'd fail the Physics exam and be laughed out of the classroom.

That's fair, I'm not a physicist.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
God does exist, that's an absurd question to me. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Agreed, therefore all other gods through out history also exist.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
For sake of argument a spirit being.

So now I have to ask, what is that and how do you know?

reply to post by Hydroman

Hmmm, this is where humanity failed. You should help out your fellow man, not own them for life as if they are obligated to be your property because you helped them. That is immoral. Help them freely. Forgive their debts if necessary. The only slaves taken as spoils of war by the Hebrews were virgins. Anyway, would that be ok for us to take slaves after we fight our wars? According to your bible, yes?

Try to put yourself into that culture for just 10 minutes.

They didn't have central banks to loan money. If a person wanted to borrow they had to offer themselves as labor to pay the lender back. They were their own collateral. If they didn't want to be owned as a slave they could refuse to borrow money. How hard is that to understand?

People back then were their own means of providing for themselves, they did this freely, at least the Jews were noble about it and released them every 7 years. Today is slavery wrong? Of course, and in the NT is clearly says the practice of stealing a man to sell them into slavery, or buying one that has been stolen is wrong. But that's today, back then freedom often meant a person was free to starve to death.

And bond-servants were ones who freely and happily joined into servant-hood. You gotta get the image out of your head of slavery in the sense of what the Egyptians did to the Hebrews or the Africans did to their neighboring tribes and nations. That wasn't the model in Biblical times.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The God of the Bible is how I define morality, it's what I appeal to. I cannot appeal to myself then we'd all have a different standard and definition of morality.

If you were a Christian, you would know morality through the Holy Spirit. The "Bible" is no way to determine morality since there are large portions of it which is immoral, where dastardly deeds have the sanction of the perpetrator's idea of God's will. You accept it whole cloth and take it, genocide and all, as being perfectly moral, while it is presenting a non-Christian philosophy, making you no better than the vilest heathen.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

God inhabits eternity, there is no time outside the time domain. The past, present, and the future are a persistent illusion we experience in the time domain, God created it, therefore He resides outside of it. Time is a physical property. It's not uniform.

The Bible teaches none of this, so you are just making up you own theory.
So do you have even scientific proof of God creating time, since you have no biblical proof?

Well, it's hard to instruct you in E=mc^2 in a forum thread on ATS

You can't, period. All you do is bash people for hating Einstein.

reply to post by Hydroman

Time is not an illusion.

Please understand that you could not be more wrong. Fine, go show the Physics world this and you'll be the greatest Physicist in the history of mankind.

Time exists in our reality.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." ~ Albert Einstein

"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." ~ Albert Einstein



What I am telling you right now has been confirmed by 14 different methods down to 19 decimal places. It's a fact, an undisputed fact of Physics.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Try to put yourself into that culture for just 10 minutes.

Ok. Ouch, they are stoning me!

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
They didn't have central banks to loan money. If a person wanted to borrow they had to offer themselves as labor to pay the lender back. They were their own collateral. If they didn't want to be owned as a slave they could refuse to borrow money. How hard is that to understand?

We're talking about morality. Is it not more moral to give the money to someone without expectation to be paid back than to have them borrow it? Don't forget, they could also beat their slaves so severely that there was a chance they might die, and if they didn't die after one or two days, it was ok. Is that ok?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
People back then were their own means of providing for themselves, they did this freely, at least the Jews were noble about it and released them every 7 years. Today is slavery wrong? Of course, and in the NT is clearly says the practice of stealing a man to sell them into slavery, or buying one that has been stolen is wrong. But that's today, back then freedom often meant a person was free to starve to death.

Cool, they only kept them for 7 years. Whew. Again, owning another human being as your property, no matter how it came to be is immoral. People are not property.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And bond-servants were ones who freely and happily joined into servant-hood. You gotta get the image out of your head of slavery in the sense of what the Egyptians did to the Hebrews or the Africans did to their neighboring tribes and nations. That wasn't the model in Biblical times.

Bond servants had master whom they had to obey. Again, the model in biblical times was that you could beat those servants almost unto death. Do you deny that?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

God inhabits eternity, there is no time outside the time domain. The past, present, and the future are a persistent illusion we experience in the time domain, God created it, therefore He resides outside of it. Time is a physical property. It's not uniform.

The Bible teaches none of this, so you are just making up you own theory.
So do you have even scientific proof of God creating time, since you have no biblical proof?

If time exists He created it. It's not eternal, it's a physical property. If you were created by God, time also was created by God.

And God existing in eternity is Biblical:

"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

Isaiah 57:15


That verse made no sense whatsoever until 1916 when Einstein discovered the nature of time.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

OT or NT? Bought slave or a bond servant? You gotta be precise.

So you are a moral relativist, where morality changes according to circumstances?
Otherwise, you are taking about two different "gods".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Please understand that you could not be more wrong. Fine, go show the Physics world this and you'll be the greatest Physicist in the history of mankind.

sciencefocus.com...

Adam Green

Contemporary attempts to extend quantum theory to the cosmological, to encompass the whole Universe and not just a sub-system of it, are often couched in equations which suggest time is emergent from a timeless reality. But these attempts suffer from problems, both technical and conceptual, that are even more challenging than the usual conundrums of quantum theory. Several advances in the study of quantum gravity have shown that our four-dimensional space-time is only recovered in a version of the theory in which time is real and not emergent. I would hold that, contrary to the ancient metaphysical tradition, time is not only real, it is likely that it is the only aspect of reality we experience directly that is fundamental and not emergent from anything else.

physicsandphysicists.blogspot.com...

ZapperZ

In Special and General Relativity, time and space occupy the same degree of importance. They share the same platform, and they are interconnected as the Minkowsky spacetime manifold. So someone who claims time is an illusion or isn't fundamental seems to have ignored or dismissed SR and GR, and did so without any explanation.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

God isn't. Let me ask you, is God bound by the limitations of mass? Gravity? Velocity?

Jacob's ladder, what is that?

reply to post by Hydroman


Bond servants chose to serve out of love for the family. It was a position of rank in the household. They were considered adopted sons into the family. And what don't you grasp about this concept that in that culture freedom for some folks meant freedom to starve to death? How was a person to grow food without land? How were they to eat if they couldn't hunt or fish?

The kind of slavery you are mentioning is strictly forbidden in both the OT and the NT, that's why God delivered the Jews from it. And God made the Jews free their servants after 7 years even if they still had debts to pay back, and the debts were cancelled.

LABOR = CASH in that day.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

God isn't. Let me ask you, is God bound by the limitations of mass? Gravity? Velocity?

Jacob's ladder, what is that?

What's your favorite flavor of soda?

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear GOD! When Adam Green proves E=mc^2 wrong and wins the Nobel Prize I'll believe him. Don't even Google anything, a page ago you said things that would get you laughed out of Physics 101.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Bond servants chose to serve out of love for the family. It was a position of rank in the household. They were considered adopted sons into the family. And what don't you grasp about this concept that in that culture freedom for some folks meant freedom to starve to death? How was a person to grow food without land? How were they to eat if they couldn't hunt or fish?

The kind of slavery you are mentioning is strictly forbidden in both the OT and the NT, that's why God delivered the Jews from it. And God made the Jews free their servants after 7 years even if they still had debts to pay back, and the debts were cancelled.

LABOR = CASH in that day.

But, it was ok to beat them, right? As long as they didn't die....?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Dear GOD! When Adam Green proves E=mc^2 wrong and wins the Nobel Prize I'll believe him. Don't even Google anything, a page ago you said things that would get you laughed out of Physics 101.

That's fine. I'm here to learn. I already said I'm not a physicist, that's why I have to google.

Anyway, I got this from Wiki Answers: E = MC2
Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared.
E= energy M=mass C= the speed of light 2= squared (a number times itself)
A famous equation created by Albert Einstein in relation to his Special Theory of Relativity.
Because the speed of light is a very large number and is multiplied by itself, this equation points out how a small amount of matter can release a huge amount of energy, as in a nuclear reaction.
In average human terms, e=mc^2 basically represents the amount of energy you'd get if you totally converted an object's mass into pure energy.

Now, what does this have to do with time being an illusion?

reply to post by Hydroman

ZapperZ

In Special and General Relativity, time and space occupy the same degree of importance. They share the same platform, and they are interconnected as the Minkowsky spacetime manifold. So someone who claims time is an illusion or isn't fundamental seems to have ignored or dismissed SR and GR, and did so without any explanation.

DUDE!! Stop Googling you're making yourslef look idiotic. The 4th dimension is called:

SPACETIME!

Your quote confirms E=mc^2

reply to post by NOTurTypical

If you were created by God, time also was created by God.

This is pretend-logic and just proof that you have no argument.

If time exists He created it. It's not eternal

There is no word for eternal in the Old Testament, so it would say something like, "God is of the Ages".
This means that the ages exist, and God is in them.

And God existing in eternity is Biblical:

"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

Isaiah 57:15

That verse made no sense whatsoever until 1916 when Einstein discovered the nature of time.

It is saying this person has taken up residence in something that endures, for example, an Age. Time in the view of the OT writers was something not only "real", but substantial which defined a god's longevity.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Hydroman

 

ZapperZ

In Special and General Relativity, time and space occupy the same degree of importance. They share the same platform, and they are interconnected as the Minkowsky spacetime manifold. So someone who claims time is an illusion or isn't fundamental seems to have ignored or dismissed SR and GR, and did so without any explanation.

DUDE!! Stop Googling you're making yourslef look idiotic. The 4th dimension is called:

SPACETIME!

Your quote confirms E=mc^2

edit on 12-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

It also says that someone who claims time is an illusion seems to have ignored special relativity and general relativity....

Besides, if I don't google things, how do I learn? Just listen to you and go with it?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Dear GOD! When Adam Green proves E=mc^2 wrong and wins the Nobel Prize I'll believe him. Don't even Google anything, a page ago you said things that would get you laughed out of Physics 101.

That's fine. I'm here to learn. I already said I'm not a physicist, that's why I have to google.

Well, listen carefully, E=mc^2 has been confirmed by 14 different methodologies to 19 decimal places.

That's 10 with 18 zeros behind it.

To compare how ridiculous this is to challenge as not a fact, there are only 10^19 atoms in the entire known universe.

It's more of a fact than your own existence.

Originally posted by milkyway12
God gave himself willingly. There is nothing immoral about this issue in any way what so ever.

No, he didn't. "Remove this cup from" me," "Not my will but thine."

Jesus didn't want to die on the cross. I also reject the notion that he believed he was dying to the sins of the world. He was nailed to the cross BECAUSE of the sins of the pharisees, they put him there, not me.