George Zimmerman to be charged in Trayvon Martin shooting, official says

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by shepseskaf

 

I asked for a source because of the manner in which you posted it. You insinuated that the Police Chief and PA conspired with each other to make the case go away. I made a post asking why a person felt their was a police cover up.

Now you are stating something different.

Is it your position that the Police and PA conspired together to cover up this crime and to protect Zimmerman? If so why and based on what?

As for the continued comments about a national outrage oh well. The law is not a popularity contest and should never be treated as such. If the PA declines to prosecute due to lack of evidence then thats the way it goes.

edit on 13-4-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-4-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

this is what i was alluding to earlier, thanks for answering my questions BTW. this whole thing with the police chief and wolfinger overruling the original investigator seems fishy because, a. zimmerman has been let off the hook on more than one occasion and b. his father is a retired judge. in my opinion there are so many fishy things about this story from zimmermans story to the different eye witness calls to the 911 calls that i am glad this case got reopened for a full investigation and charges brought on zim. xcathdra, how do you feel about people like zimmerman being overzealous and trying to play a cop role when they have no authority and never actually witnessed a crime? how would this country be if people start following everybody they see as potentially suspicious? imo this case should be used as a deterrent to anyone that thinks that kind of behavior is acceptable. imo zim should plead guilty and reach out to trays parents and the black community as well as al and jesse if he wants to get the word out. reaching out to hannity was not the best idea imo.

reply to post by shepseskaf


Be careful not to mistake incompetence for conspiracy. The lines may be blurred and when looked at from afar may appear the same

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by shepseskaf

Oh please, wise and wonderful x, continue to grace us with your extensive knowledge.

I have been.. All that is left is for you to read the info.

Originally posted by shepseskaf
What kind of "facts" will you be making up today? I'll be interested to see what you come up with.

I have not made any facts up. Stop acting like a 3 year old while your at it.

Originally posted by shepseskaf
By the way, no one is saying that under the law GZ isn't innocent until proven guilty. This is a message board, and people are discussing their views. Some think he's guilty, and some don't.

Yes people in this thread has him guilty regardless of facts or evidence. Again you would know this if you spent more time reading posts and less time name calling.

Originally posted by shepseskaf
We all know that the court process will have to play itself out, so spare yourself the trouble of posting ponderous opuses about police and court procedure in the future.

Im good and will continue to post. If that irritates you because it undermines your position and exposes the fact you know nothing about police, courts, laws or procedures thats your problem.

Speaking of fale information and facts you didnt answer my question -

Please cite your source for this info -

The case was actually closed, at the insistence of Police Chief Bill Lee and State Attorney Norman Wolfinger. If no national outrage had occurred, everything would have been swept right under the rug.

Well well well, another lie from X.....you did make up fact? Remember, you tried to play it off as a 'misspeak' ... even though it was quite thoroughly pointed out by your owns words that you lied.

Maybe you should go back and read your own words........

I also find it quite amusing for you to ask for sources when you ignored all request for the sources of the made up info you posted, twice, yesterday. Pot, kettle, black........

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by GhettoRice
EDIT: Disregard, I didn't comprehend what I read

edit on 12-4-2012 by GhettoRice because: (no reason given)

Welcome to the club.. We had jackets made.

this is one of the more fubared investigations and prosecutions I have seen. Apparently the media and certain members are of the mindset of prosecuting this in the prealm of public opinion using 3rd parties as experts.

We need to wait and see what comes from the proceedings in terms of evidence challenges, defense strategy and if its something the judge will allow. We need to see how the prosecution is going to make their case for 2nd murder and what their evidence is to support it.

This is going to be an interesting case to follow.

You didn't make simple mistake, you fabricated a story to support your own narrative, got called out on it and then proceeded to recant your story or twist it as some sort of error.

Your credibility is zero on this issue. I don't believe you're a cop either. You've proven you'll make things up to get support for your ideas. Go away.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Deranged74
Easy, under the SYG law it has been excluded because Zim pursued Martin. This is according to the man who wrote the law and the one who signed it in.

Actually this means nothing. Its irrelevant if the sponsor of the bill claims a law does or does not apply to situations. The SYG law is part of this case and for good reasons. You cant reject it out of hand for one whil relying on it for the other.

Originally posted by Deranged74
SYG law does not apply to Zim so lets throw it out.

Please cite your source that states SYG cannot be used as a defense? Only a judge can limit how the defense presents their case. Simply ignoring the SYG does not mean it does not apply. It mvery much does.

Originally posted by Deranged74
Now Zim has to prove that he was in a life threatening situation that made him fear for his life and have to shoot a unarmed man. It would also do good for him to prove he didnt start said altercation.

No actually he does not. Zimmerman can invoke the self defense argument using the SYG law (affirmative defense).

The moment that issue is raised its incumbent on the PA to dismantle that assertion.

Originally posted by Deranged74
Zim needs to show some injurys that would be considered in the realm of life threatening if they had continued to be delivered.

This occured back in February so recent photos wont show brusinging.
Zimmerman has a gash on the back of his head.
The police reports documented Zimmerman's appearance - blood etc
According to the daily mail article I linked a few pages back it states the police took Zimmerman to the police station and interviewed him for a few hours. Zimmerman apparently asked to go to the hospital and the police said no (if anyone has other info that corrects that let me know).

Originally posted by Deranged74
He needs to show a trip to the ER or something that verifys his so called beating would have ended in his possible death.

No he does not...

So again, please use the law,, NOT personal opinions / moral views, and argue why Zimmerman is guilty.

Id like to cordially ask you to site your source that states Zimmerman had 'gash' in the back of his head.

Something official...you know EMTreport, police report, ER visit....or similar.

The original police report say he had a bloody nose and was bleeding from the back of his head. Ive not heard anything to back up your claim of a 'gash'....is that embellishment on your part?

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by shepseskaf

Originally posted by Cosmic911
there aren't a lot of good reasons for those charges to have been delayed like this, right?

Right. That's why so many people have characterized the actions of the SPD after the shooting as a cover-up. There's no denying it.

Amazing how you are quick to accuse others of lying and making up facts.

Please show us where a Police cover up occurred / was occurring.

You got caught lying yesterday and now you are gonna come on here and accuse someone else of lying and making up facts.

I just can't even believe you.

It is amazing how many eye-witnesses we have here in this thread alone! So I assume all of you who KNOW Zimmerman is guilty or innocent have already been contacted for the court proceedings?

No? Oh, you're just touting speculation as truth? My bad. Sounded like you were actually there.

I have no clue if this Zimmerman fellow is guilty or innocent. I wasn't there. I've seen the news, but I know how much they love to manipulate and overplay rather insignificant events (especially that wretched Nancy Grace lady). I will, however, find the case quite interesting. Not that I'm actually going to follow it myself. It is really amusing to watch the American public get entirely consumed, absorbed, and distracted with such insignificant proceedings. It's even more amusing to watch how quickly they forget about the entire thing once it is over and done with.

That is some amazing kool-aid.

reply to post by pizzanazi75


Yeah, there's a little back-peddling and a lot of accusing going on now. If I felt more inclined or ambitious, I suppose I would go back through my posts to check to see if I did any accusing of my own, but alas, no, I'm not so inclined.

Its always interesting, from a sociologic perspective, to watch ATS members completely isolate and alienate themselves from everyone else in the thread. Its like at a certain point, it becomes easier to just start accusing everyone of everything. Like I stated before, my interest in this case is from a gun owner's perspective. Although I'm interested in the meat and potatos of the procedure of interviewing someone involved in a shooting occurring outside the home, I am more interested in the legislation and execution of said legislation, including Use of Deadly Force, Stand Your Ground, and Castle Doctrine, and how the police department, the PA, private citizens, and the Court will interpret these statutes. I'm from New York, and while certain areas/regions differ immensely in regards to gun laws, NY has some pretty odd-ball laws when it comes to firearms. Additionally, it is unlikely the MSM will ever spin a shooting positively, even if it was a truly positive scenario. Shootings like these can be extremely damaging to our 2nd Amendment rights and only serves to fuel the opposition.

Could George Zimmerman be the October surprise?

www.politico.com...

This hearing has been described as a “mini trial” and it would allow Zimmerman the chance to testify, as well as evidence to be presented by both sides. The setting provides the defense an opportunity to show that Zimmerman had acted in self-defense. If the judge agrees, the case can be dismissed without a trial and a potential bomb could be thrown into the presidential race, likely prompting differing reactions from the white and African-American communities (polling shows a sharp racial divide in how the case is viewed) and forcing the candidates to react.

One Florida defense attorney told The Associated Press that he believes there is a “high likelihood” of such an outcome, as he predicted that there could be no trial at all.

Read more: www.politico.com...

Don't know if this has been posted.

My one and only question to all this is:

Why is everyone acting as if Zimmerman's a White man? The guy's an Hispanic Jew.. Mother's Hispanic, Father's Jewish... And yet it's the 'whitey's' that are getting attacked, in rising numbers most recently, by unmentionable "groups of individuals"... Not to mention the media reporting it as if he is White, let alone them not telling us what race he ACTUALLY is.. Instead they let the hate snowball until it's an uncontrollable spectacle of racial violence..

Oookay then.

Well, I did not read the whole thread, especially since I was lead here by a closed thread.

Sadly a similar case happened here in my neighborhood, only a few hundred meters away from my appartement.

A guy, 50+ years stabbed a boy of 15. Of course, it was self defence - as always. We had no uproar, no race discussions, no defense of the ground. Police simply arrested the killer and things will go as they should.

He will not have to fear death penalty, because we have none. Nobody wants his head, because we don't take heads over here. But it is clear that he is the main suspect. He took a life. He took the life of a boy. We also don't have any idiots, who fear, their rights to buy and use guns are in danger. Nobody has the right to use a gun here anyway. Only uncivilized countries have these rights.

The killer won't be killed. Nobody has to fear gun restrictions. The child won't live anymore. But nobody has the right to take the life of somebody else, and especially not the life of a young person, who even is not an adult.

reply to post by Etheraeon


Are you American? Why are you thinking in Blacks, White and Jews? Are you American or what? Or are those others not as American as you are? What is your problem?

reply to post by Siddharta

We also don't have any idiots, who fear, their rights to buy and use guns are in danger. Nobody has the right to use a gun here anyway. Only uncivilized countries have these rights.

So in your country only civilized criminals have firearms? As opposed to uncivilized law-abiding citizens? Way to go

reply to post by Siddharta


Ah, let's not address the stabbing problem you seem to have in your country. Perhaps you guys should ban knives too? And you seem proud that the "civilized" murderers in your country can stab away with the assurance they will not face death for murdering their victims, instead they will be fed and sheltered for the rest of their lives. Kill em with kindness, and understanding.

Originally posted by shepseskaf
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

I don't even know what those articles you're linking pertain specifically to. Its impossible to carry on an edifying discussion with someone who has no logical dexterity, and keeps reiterating the same points ad nauseum.

Then I refer you back to your coment to me about reading what I post. For your police conspiracy argument you stated the girl who was on the phone with Martin was never inteviewed.

In fact she was, which is the first section I quoted for you.

The second section revolved around people making claims SYG does not apply in this case as well as comments that Zimmerman's lawyer stated it does not apply.

In fact, SYG does apply and it is being used as a defense. At the preliminary hearing defense will invoke SYG and self defense. They will then make a motion for dismissal because the SYG prohibits criminal / civil actions against people who invoke the defense and are justified. The PA will need to successfully argue her points and refute the defense assertions in order to get over that hurdle and have the case move forward.

If she fails to do that this case will be over.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by CoherentlyConfused

 

The only thing that matters is who initiated contact.

Very good!

As far as I know, there is only one living witness to that. George Zimmerman.

In order to prove that he committed second degree murder, they must show (beyond a reasonable doubt) that George Zimmerman "evinced a depraved mind, regardless of human life", according to the Florida statute.

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Florida statute

However keep in mind Floridas SYG law allows for an aggressor to use deadly force under some circumstances. Since they are invoking SYG it is a factor we will need to watch and not dismiss out of hand.

The other side of that coin is - Yes the PA must prove her case beyond a reason of a doubt. However the standard for self defense under SYG is the preponderance of the evidence. A much much lower standard and much more room to raise all factors for consideration instead of a specific few..

Originally posted by conspiracy nut
this is what i was alluding to earlier, thanks for answering my questions BTW.

you are welcome.

Originally posted by conspiracy nut
this whole thing with the police chief and wolfinger overruling the original investigator seems fishy because, a. zimmerman has been let off the hook on more than one occasion and b. his father is a retired judge. in my opinion there are so many fishy things about this story from zimmermans story to the different eye witness calls to the 911 calls that i am glad this case got reopened for a full investigation and charges brought on zim.

A few things to note -
The chief did not overrule anyone. The sole authority on prosecution and what charges will be used belongs to the prosecutor. Police can complain all they want but in the end prosecution and charges are not their responsibility.

Secondly Zimmermans history is going to be touchy. Since he is accused of a crime its going to be a tight rope walk for the prosecution in terms of painting Zimmerman as a bad guy with a history of questionable conduct without coming across as introducing prior bad acts, which arent allowed (in general).

As far as family members go its not relevant to the case. Attempting to raise that issue in court I dont think would go anywhere. for starters his dads status is irrelevant, secondly his dad nor the PA are on trial or charged with any criminal violations or ethics violations.

Originally posted by conspiracy nut
xcathdra, how do you feel about people like zimmerman being overzealous and trying to play a cop role when they have no authority and never actually witnessed a crime? how would this country be if people start following everybody they see as potentially suspicious? imo this case should be used as a deterrent to anyone that thinks that kind of behavior is acceptable. imo zim should plead guilty and reach out to trays parents and the black community as well as al and jesse if he wants to get the word out. reaching out to hannity was not the best idea imo.

There is nothing illegal with watching / following an individual down the road. It would freak some people out but there is no violation. Secondly we still do not know, as a fact, what occured from contact to the moment police showed up.

As far as playing cop I dont grant the premise of the comment simply because any person who calls 911 to report somthing is in fact playing cop also. Under Florida law zimmermans actions could very well be justified and legal so we will need to see how court plays out.

Since people dont make a distinction I will say this here and now -

* - I do not condone neighborhood watch / civilians from engaging in any type of law enforcement function. I have no issues with them reporting it and keeping a safe distance to observe, but not involvement and certainly no actions should be taken that could escalate the situation. Its counter productive and items can be replaced where as a life cannot.

* - I beleive if a 911 dispatchers tells and individual not to do something then the person should comply unless something occurs where that is no longer an option and the individual cannot safely retreat.

* - I am a proponent of the right to bear arms as well as concealed carry laws and fully support the 2nd amendment being applied to the individual.

* - I dont beleive gun control works as it only affects people who obey the law, and we know criminals do not.

* - I am not in favor of a civilian interjecting themselves into a dangerous situation unless a person life is in immediate / imminent danger.

* - I am not in favor of civilians interjecting themselves simply because they don't know all of the facts, don't know anything about the person they might confront, dont have the training in law / tactics we must go through, target discrimination does not come to mind nor does the ability to know how they will ultimately act / react / handle a situation where they may have to take a life.

* - civilians dont face the same standards / requirements / scrutiny that law enforcement faces and the laws / rulings that only apply to law enforcement are present for a reason.

With all of the abiove being said I dont agree with Zimmermans actions. He placed himself into a situation that went horribly wrong. While his intentions were good I have to say, based on all of the info to date, that it was his good intentions that created the situation.

Even if it turns out Martin confronted Zimmerman, I still have to beleive it was Zimmermans initial actions that set forth the entire incident.

My opinions run contrary to Florida state law, which is what I have been trying to state and explain. It is irrelevant what I or anyone else personally thinks.

The guidlines for this are the Statutes of the State of Florida. Nothing else we say, do or think can change that nor can we ignore what we do not agree with.

There is a good reason that lady justice, who holds the scales and is the symbol of our judicial system, is blindfolded.

Let the system work...
Let the court actions run their course...
Analyze the situation and instead of condemning, lets try and learn from it to improve / refine it.
Lets revisit the law itself and if changes / clarification are warranted, then do it.

If Zimmerman is found not guilty then that is that. We cannot remain in the past, we cannot be continually angry over a situation that is done and overwith, we cannot be angry that the law protected him.

Those who are amped up over this should turn that energy from being pissed into something positive, like checking your own state laws to see what they say and if there is a possibility those laws have the same loop holes Florida's laws do.

Get involved....

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
Could George Zimmerman be the October surprise?

www.politico.com...

This hearing has been described as a “mini trial” and it would allow Zimmerman the chance to testify, as well as evidence to be presented by both sides. The setting provides the defense an opportunity to show that Zimmerman had acted in self-defense. If the judge agrees, the case can be dismissed without a trial and a potential bomb could be thrown into the presidential race, likely prompting differing reactions from the white and African-American communities (polling shows a sharp racial divide in how the case is viewed) and forcing the candidates to react.

One Florida defense attorney told The Associated Press that he believes there is a “high likelihood” of such an outcome, as he predicted that there could be no trial at all.

Read more: www.politico.com...

Don't know if this has been posted.

Its been touched on but I dont think people are quie understanding it. Ill post the info again for those who missed it. A preliminary hearing will be held at which the defense lawyer will argue Zimmerman acted in self defense under the SYG statute. Because the way the statute worded, if the evidence presented at that hearing supports Zimmermans accounts, and the PA is not able to adequately counter the defense version of events, the the judge must dimiss that charge and release Zimmerman.

specifically the SYG notes that if the action was done in self defence and is justified then the person is immune from criminal / civil actions.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Then I refer you back to your coment to me about reading what I post. For your police conspiracy argument you stated the girl who was on the phone with Martin was never inteviewed.

In fact she was, which is the first section I quoted for you.

The second section revolved around people making claims SYG does not apply in this case as well as comments that Zimmerman's lawyer stated it does not apply.

In fact, SYG does apply and it is being used as a defense. At the preliminary hearing defense will invoke SYG and self defense.

When I said that Trayvon's girlfriend had not been interviewed, it was clear that I was referring to law enforcement. Yes, she has been interviewed -- but by Benjamin Crump, the Martin family attorney, and by the Prosecutor.

The main point I made about this issue was that the Sanford Police Dept. made no documented effort to at least find the person who spoke to Trayvon just minutes before he was killed. They would have had no idea from looking at the phone number whether the person was a minor, or not -- addressing the argument that you made about not contacting underage individuals.

It is basic police procedure to try and ascertain the last person that a homicide victim has spoken to, in order to shed some light on possible reasons for the killing. So, SPD should have, at minimum, attempted to contact the person at the number on Trayvon's cell. Phone records could easily have established the fact that the call happened at the same time as the confrontation. However, SPD did not do this.

On the second issue, your definitive statement that SYG "does apply" is false. Just because GZ's attorney is attempting to use it as a defense doesn't mean that it is a valid application of law until ruled on by a judge. Defense lawyers typically make all kinds of assertions, invoking all sorts of laws in order to possibly get a dismissal of the charges against their clients. It doesn't mean squat until a judge rules that, in fact, a law does apply to a specific case.

reply to post by shepseskaf


I also do not believe SYG can easily be applied to this case. In my limited and humble opinion, Zimmerman null & voided that privilege the moment he began following Martin, especially after police dispatch advised him against any further pursuit. Again, I refer back to my post about the importance of avoidance when carrying a weapon. Do I ever want to be in a position where I am forced to draw my weapon to use on another human being? NO. Do I feel this entire situation could have been avoided had GZ remained in his vehicle after notifying 911? YES? Avoidance...see how that works. The KISS method can easily be applied in this case. Keep It Simple Stupid!