On Tour In America & It's A Police State. No Doubt About It.

no problems here in connecticut. we enjoy freedom most of the world would envy

Originally posted by Sphota
War on Drugs

Yeah the war that keeps the CIA's biggest cartel worldwide.

Originally posted by Sphota
What can I say, I'm a dreamer.

You're not the only one.

reply to post by Malcher


It's true, we have the highest per capita rate and, if I'm not mistaken, the highest absolute rate of imprisonment.

www.nytimes.com... ht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all

And, that's a yes. First line "We're 5% of the population, but we have almost a quarter of the world's prisoners."

I lived in Brazil and did not find it any more "dangerous" than the US, there is just more poverty, so things tend to bubble up in different places than in the US, also because you are less likely to be driving from point A to point B, so you are more likely to encounter crime directly (the average person, I mean).

I know people who would never ever fathom being mugged. I've never been mugged myself. However, in Brazil, two friends were mugged while I lived there...two in two years...Sounds like too much, granted. However, you have to take things into perspective. The US would be A LOT worse if it weren't for the prison system. I know that sounds like an apology or promotion of the incarceration rate, but in fact, it's quite the opposite.

My point is that, while a so-called 3rd world country like Brazil can have, let's say, a rate of one mugging in your group of friends per year (just to use a random statistic based on my example), in the US you might go years without hearing about your friend or family member being mugged. Yet, on the other hand, the prison rate has to be THAT HIGH for that not to happen.

In other words, it's not that we've solved the problems, we just hide them in cages and isolated from the rest of the population...the problems are still there, it's how we react to the them that gives us the moniker of "police state" or (quasi-police state, however people here would like to phrase it).

By the way, I also lived in Spain for about a year and in that time a friend of mine was mugged and pick-pocketed and another girl got purse-snatched. So, that's a 1st world social democratic country, but a bigger city (Madrid area) than what I would normally be in in the US.

If you have to destroy something to protect it, you have not saved anything.

I think that about sums it up.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
no problems here in connecticut. we enjoy freedom most of the world would envy

Except for the weapons bans, the driver check points and the political corruption.

Beautiful part of the country, though.

Originally posted by Sphota
reply to post by Domo1

 

CHANGE:

1. Stop invading countries.
2. Stop killing random people.
3. Stop killing American citizens and pretending there is some supralegal excuse to do so.
4. Merge the regular court system and the FISA court system...a crime is a crime is a crime, special circumstances sound like guilty before proven innocent to me.
5. Stop trying to be a "force civilitrice"...American style democracy is NOT working, why export it?
6. Get money out of politics and forbid lobbying.
7. Reduce term limits and pay for politicians.
8. Mandate federal and state funds for qualified candidates to any position.
9. a.)Equal air time means equal air time, no special CNN-MSNBC-FOX barrage of debates.
b.) No campaigning until two months before the election...4 years of campaigning is WAY too much, it desensitizes the electorate, trivializes the issues and makes a spectacle out of the whole process..."WASHINGTON: The longest running reality program EVER!"
10. So-called media may say or play whatever they'd like, but they may not call themselves "news" unless they provide equal, rational reporting: Who, what, where, when, why...next story...who, what, where, when, why...next story...
11. Take money out of news, no advertising during news; no soft-pieces that are 30 minute commercials guised in some sort of newsworthy format. (Also, commercials may no longer pretend to be a news bulletin).
12. Legalize all drugs; provide clinics for the small percentage that become addicts.
13. Discontinue all aid to foreign nations, especially for "defense".
14. Forbid the disaster capitalism mindset altogether.
15. Get away from oil.

That ought clear up some issues and certainly make the whole concept of the War on Terror not only moot (from the standpoint of the propagandists) but total vaporized (from the standpoint of so-called would-be terrorists...where's the beef? There won't be any.) There goes the money (from any angle: media, politicians, defense contractors) that would otherwise come before people's rights, let alone their lives. There goes the impetus for any supposed War on Terror (from any angle: War on Drugs, War on Islamo-fascism, War on Anti-Colonialism)...if there is no colonialism and no illegal drug trade and no East-West conflict or propping up of dictators, there can be no scars of death and destruction and thus, no blow back.

What can I say, I'm a dreamer.

you sir, hit the nail on the head. buried it with one swing. although id add a few more things to the mix, like free technology. do away with passports, ssn, and birth certificate. i see those as ownership. good ideas. thank you.

Well... its gonna be tight in the nations capitol, but I'll admit I do believe they're gonna spread that overly invasive type of security throughout the rest of the country eventually, once they get people good and scared of terrorism.

Originally posted by Sphota
reply to post by Domo1

 

CHANGE:

1. Stop invading countries.
2. Stop killing random people.
3. Stop killing American citizens and pretending there is some supralegal excuse to do so.
4. Merge the regular court system and the FISA court system...a crime is a crime is a crime, special circumstances sound like guilty before proven innocent to me.
5. Stop trying to be a "force civilitrice"...American style democracy is NOT working, why export it?
6. Get money out of politics and forbid lobbying.
7. Reduce term limits and pay for politicians.
8. Mandate federal and state funds for qualified candidates to any position.
9. a.)Equal air time means equal air time, no special CNN-MSNBC-FOX barrage of debates.
b.) No campaigning until two months before the election...4 years of campaigning is WAY too much, it desensitizes the electorate, trivializes the issues and makes a spectacle out of the whole process..."WASHINGTON: The longest running reality program EVER!"
10. So-called media may say or play whatever they'd like, but they may not call themselves "news" unless they provide equal, rational reporting: Who, what, where, when, why...next story...who, what, where, when, why...next story...
11. Take money out of news, no advertising during news; no soft-pieces that are 30 minute commercials guised in some sort of newsworthy format. (Also, commercials may no longer pretend to be a news bulletin).
12. Legalize all drugs; provide clinics for the small percentage that become addicts.
13. Discontinue all aid to foreign nations, especially for "defense".
14. Forbid the disaster capitalism mindset altogether.
15. Get away from oil.

That ought clear up some issues and certainly make the whole concept of the War on Terror not only moot (from the standpoint of the propagandists) but total vaporized (from the standpoint of so-called would-be terrorists...where's the beef? There won't be any.) There goes the money (from any angle: media, politicians, defense contractors) that would otherwise come before people's rights, let alone their lives. There goes the impetus for any supposed War on Terror (from any angle: War on Drugs, War on Islamo-fascism, War on Anti-Colonialism)...if there is no colonialism and no illegal drug trade and no East-West conflict or propping up of dictators, there can be no scars of death and destruction and thus, no blow back.

What can I say, I'm a dreamer.

Hey I appreciate you taking the time to type that up. I don't agree with all your points, but I think that having a plan is a good start. While I don't consider America a police state, I certainly don't want it slipping to the point where I start to wonder. I can appreciate what members are saying, I just I completely agree with taking the money out of politics. Public campaign financing would be a great start. I would be amazed to see it implemented. I think we need to start small in local communities, build up to national elections. I still think checkpoints are a VERY god idea in high risk areas.

reply to post by User8911

Just that line says so much about you! Oh brother

Oh heavens! I go shooting frequently! I must be a redneck ne'er do well! Shooting is fun, try it some time. I'll take you if you're near Seattle. You would have to sit through a half hour Domo safety class though and deal with my unwarranted feelings of self importance.

Originally posted by Domo1
reply to post by User8911

 

Just that line says so much about you! Oh brother

Oh heavens! I go shooting frequently! I must be a redneck ne'er do well! Shooting is fun, try it some time. I'll take you if you're near Seattle. You would have to sit through a half hour Domo safety class though and deal with my unwarranted feelings of self importance.

I shoot competitively. Does that make me a ranked redneck?

reply to post by Sphota


I get tired of seeing the "U.S has highest rates of incarceration" in the context it was used in this thread. There are too many factors that the person stating it is just insulting the readers intelligence.

The U.S does have an enormous criminal justice apparatus and i am not entirely a fan of light sentences for violent criminals only to be released and commit more crimes.

The problem with throwing that statistic around is that the numbers do not take into account all the variables. Some countries with low incarceration rates are barely functioning and VERY dangerous places, some give out so severe punishments that it really does work as a deterrent. So while the numbers may be true they do not tell the whole story.

That said, i am fairly certain citizens from all countries want criminals incarcerated.

Originally posted by poloblack
reply to post by Domo1

 

I hope you're joking.

The sad thing is he is serious,It is nice to be patriotic, however even the law enforcement is not aware of their agenda, they are just brain washed clones doing what they are told, the real reason behind all the searches etc is just to get people used to being stopped and questioned and manhandled by authority.

The free world is all the same, UK Cameras with 2 way speakers hundreds of thousands of them, Australia, close your eyes you could be in NY city same Jack booted Johnnies dressed in black with more lethal weapons hanging off them they can hardly walk.

Also like he said he can go shooting, and say anything he wants to, but not every one is living in the Ozarks

as america has more people in prison per capita then any other country that has ever existed in this world; as my state of california has more people in prison then most of europe combined; then i know for a fact that i live in the biggest police state the world has ever know.
it is all well and good to talk about our freedoms here in america but the overcrowded prisons and the booming prison/industrial complex tell the true story.
quite frankly america is almost a lost cause at this point in time; to undo all the 'securty' apparatus that exists now would take decades, and all the while more laws to 'protect' us would be passed.
we have forgotten and now we pay the price.

reply to post by MRuss


You know I was just thinking about this yesterday - speaking from my experiences outside the US but the world generally too. So much beautiful landscape is either cordoned off or owned. If I wanted to go for a drive, pull up and stroll out into the countryside, I'd have to go to a national park or somewhere like that. It really is unfortunate that earth itself is treated like a commodity that anyone can own and keep people from accessing, let alone monuments such as the ones you've mentioned.

Apparently the Eiffel Tower is a good example of what you're talking about now. I remember going as a kid, which I'm glad of as I've read it's not very accessible anymore.

Walking down the high street recently in the UK, I looked around for CCTV cameras and noticed you can't go anywhere without being watched over here. Orwellian is putting it lightly.

Plus, the Occupy movement (which largely consists of homeless in this city) was forced out of their camp, with the local cathedral they were protesting outside of putting legal pressure on them. One of them showed me a document that showed the court basically offered them a deal - either leave or pay £20 000. They left. As the man in question said, good luck trying to get £20 000 off a homeless guy. The privately-owned cathedral itself was clearly pressured into the move by higher powers too.

In a so-called 'democratic society' how can there be 'protest zones' and 'no-protest zones'? And why are the number of protest zones decreasing as time goes on?

I could go on about it for ages - but point is, I think we're already well on the way to dystopia. Or at least, recent events have highlighted the severely flawed nature of Western 'democracy'.

Originally posted by Doc Gator

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
no problems here in connecticut. we enjoy freedom most of the world would envy

Except for the weapons bans, the driver check points and the political corruption.

Beautiful part of the country, though.

the mayors around here are knuckleheads, lol

I've been driving here for 20 years, and have never seen one, or heard of someone complain about a checkpoint, and the last 4 years I've been doing 300 miles a week in my job

since most weapons are used on the owner or someone the owner knows, I don't have a problem with it

I skipped a few pages of posts so I apologize if this has already been said but if it hasn't, I'm a bit stunned.

Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security. Ben Franklin

He said it best.

Originally posted by arollingstone
reply to post by MRuss

 

Walking down the high street recently in the UK, I looked around for CCTV cameras and noticed you can't go anywhere without being watched over here. Orwellian is putting it lightly.

Another overrated, mediocre piece of literature being referenced. Seriously if people want to be left alone just go live in the woods like Ted Kosciski did. Thing is people dont want that so of course if you live in a city thousands of eyes will be upon you and so what if they are CCTV camera's.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest

Originally posted by Doc Gator

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
no problems here in connecticut. we enjoy freedom most of the world would envy

Except for the weapons bans, the driver check points and the political corruption.

Beautiful part of the country, though.

the mayors around here are knuckleheads, lol

I've been driving here for 20 years, and have never seen one, or heard of someone complain about a checkpoint, and the last 4 years I've been doing 300 miles a week in my job

since most weapons are used on the owner or someone the owner knows, I don't have a problem with it

I don't know where you are in Connecticut, but I used to live in Redding and work in Stamford and moved away about 3 years ago.

I have been stopped many times at the drunk/seatbelt checkpoints, but to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure if they were in Connecticut or New York. As you know, you can cross the borders several times in that area without realizing it.

The weapon restrictions were, at most, an inconvenience. But the fact remains that the laws exist and they restrict your rights.

My favorite was when I had to hire an off-duty police officer to direct non-existent traffic for 8 hours in my cul-de-sac while I had a lawn installed. And that the zoning and development commissions are packed with real estate agents. Where I come from, they call that a conflict of interest and it is a sure recipe for corruption.

reply to post by Malcher

Another overrated, mediocre piece of literature being referenced. Seriously if people want to be left alone just go live in the woods like Ted Kosciski did. Thing is people dont want that so of course if you live in a city thousands of eyes will be upon you and so what if they are CCTV camera's.

As I said, Orwellian is putting it lightly - I tend to avoid cliches. However, 1984 definitely is neither mediocre or overrated, to suggest as such is ridiculous. We'll save that for another thread mind you, don't mean to derail this one.

I'd be more than happy to retire in the wilderness, but I'm young and have a lot to achieve and therefore want to live in a big city. I do appreciate your point, as long as it doesn't interfere with me or anyone else unreasonably then I'm fine with it. However, it is representative of the paradigms and problems that are digging us into a hole.

The UK has a stunning number of CCTV cameras and sure sometimes they help solve crimes. But combined with other legislation the government is trying to push through, on top of existing legislation, it could pose a significant problem at current, if not in the future.

I appreciate you trying to be the down-to-earth realist but under your logic, the problem is not that our society resembles dystopia more than utopia but that we choose to remain subject to dystopian conditions. That is a dangerously flawed paradigm.

reply to post by MRuss


You've drawn quite a crowd.

I've never been on the eastern seaboard and, based on your description, I don't wanna be.

It doesn't sound representative of the rest of the country. The U.S. isn't a police state. That region of the country is a "police region" if you ask me.

My advice is to come out west. Sounds like you need a break. The pace is a little slower (except L.A.) and you don't have so much of that crowd mentality that leads to roping off the Wall Street Bull. ( I just thought that was funny BTW ).

Better still, go to Oregon. There's no sales tax and they pump your gas for you.

It's the law.