Why there's good reason to believe the "Abomination that Causes Desolations" will happen this spr

Originally posted by micmerci
I think the threads on this site should be all-inclusive and not divisive. Although, Hydro and I are often on opposing sides, his input is valuable and well thought out. We, as Christians need to be able to answer these tough questions confidently and in a loving manner.

Wow, I apprectiate that! This is what I'm talking about. This is how things should be discussed. Thanks man.

reply to post by Hydroman


I think the best answer is for people to preface their opinions with..."this is my opinion or interpretation and I am still seeking because I still look through a mirror dimly..." or something along those lines. No one should claim to have all the answers but we should not give up the search because no one does know all things either.

reply to post by Hydroman


Hydroman, the Bible is a test of our faith.
It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of it but you. If you want to believe in it then just do it and interepret it any way you like.

As long as you believe God's Word and try to live by them is all that matters.

Originally posted by micmerci
I think the best answer is for people to preface their opinions with..."this is my opinion or interpretation and I am still seeking because I still look through a mirror dimly..." or something along those lines. No one should claim to have all the answers but we should not give up the search because no one does know all things either.

I agree that they should. But, it is my understanding that believers believe that they have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. It is also my understanding that they have a holy spirit guiding them and helping them understand scripture (well, I've been told I don't understand because the holy spirit isn't helping me). So, if this is the case, why isn't everyone on the same page?

Is it like you said, we are so imperfect that it is our fault for not hearing correctly? If so, were the ancient people any more perfect than we are? If not, how do you know that THEY didn't get things wrong? If it happens today with those who love, worship, and follow this god, why didn't it happen back then?

Originally posted by will615
reply to post by Hydroman

 

Hydroman, the Bible is a test of our faith. It's a riddle on purpose.
It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of it but you. If you want to believe in it then just do it and interepret it any way you like.

As long as you believe God's Word and try to live by them is all that matters.

I believe you will find many in this thread, who believe in the same god as you do, will disagree.

reply to post by Hydroman


I personally believe that scripture is the inspired word of God and thus infallible. Do I think that the writers were more in tune with the HS than present day Christians? No. I don't think that they had to have a direct line with the HS to be used as a vessel to get the word out there. God used some seriously imperfect people throughout scripture to get His will accomplished and I believe He did the same to get His word out as well.

Originally posted by micmerci
I personally believe that scripture is the inspired word of God and thus infallible.

I'm curious as to why you think this. For one, there are NO original copies. So, there's no way of knowing how accurate most, if not all, those writings are. Second, you've already stated that those men were just as fallible as we are. Third, the Bible has been changed. It has had verses removed, added, books removed and added, etc. This is easily proved. Now, if this god allows those things to happen, how do you know it wasn't allowed since the very beginning? How do you know stories weren't embellished to make others fear their "god"?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by micmerci
I personally believe that scripture is the inspired word of God and thus infallible.

I'm curious as to why you think this. For one, there are NO original copies. So, there's no way of knowing how accurate most, if not all, those writings are. Second, you've already stated that those men were just as fallible as we are. Third, the Bible has been changed. It has had verses removed, added, books removed and added, etc. This is easily proved. Now, if this god allows those things to happen, how do you know it wasn't allowed since the very beginning? How do you know stories weren't embellished to make others fear their "god"?

edit on 30-3-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

Which is why I always preface my statements with, I believe.... When I go back to the "original" manuscripts, I see that the specific language used is so pure and spot on that these ancient men could not have possibly concocted it with an agenda. But again....this is my belief.

Originally posted by micmerci
[Which is why I always preface my statements with, I believe.... When I go back to the "original" manuscripts, I see that the specific language used is so pure and spot on that these ancient men could not have possibly concocted it with an agenda. But again....this is my belief.

Well, at least you put "original" in quotations.

I can tell you what I think their agenda was: To conquer people.

I'd like to point out how the fulfillments of Daniel nine that I wrote about in my first post differ from common "interpretations" of prophecy:

1. They are descriptions of events that are factual, not speculative. The events between '93 and 2000 are literal fulfillments that occurred in the exact order and time-frame specified by the prophecy; as opposed to vague, metaphysical interpretations of what "might" happen in some nebulous future, as most "interpretations" are.

2. They meet all the criteria specified by Gabriel as opposed to just some or none of the criteria:
a. A seven year treaty (Oslo Accords) - the first and only such treaty with Israel in recorded history.
b. A "halting of the 'daily' in the middle of the seven". We even have an exact date for this event, March 13, 1997. The exact "middle" of the Oslo time-frame.
c. "One who causes desolation will ascend to the pinnacle of the abominable temple...". The current Palestinian intifada began with that very event. It is still going on. The "march on Jerusalem" happening today is a part of it. Some might even say that 9/11 was an indirect result of Sharon's actions.

3. They aren't built upon the misconceptions of John Nelson Darby, who's biggest mistake was assuming that the "62 weeks" and the "7 weeks" occur consecutively.

4. There are too many "hits" in the sequence of these events to just dismiss it all.

reply to post by Hydroman


I would never deny that people in power have used scripture for evil purposes- that would be foolishness. But, I can't see fishermen, desert dwellers and shepherds having that agenda.

So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. (Matthew 24:15-22)

If the Abomination that Causes Desolation happens during this spring then why does the warning suggest the escaping can happen in Winter? It´s pretty obvious that as soon as they ¨see¨ this abomination they should immediately flee to the mountains. Clearly some people who (for whatever reason) have to wait several months before escaping will have a tougher time. Perhaps this is not literal and ocurring during the span of several weeks? Maybe the abomination will take some time to be set up, depending on what it is, and even some more time to be recognized as such.

This whole concept is based on the premise of a Spring 2012 abomination scenario, which I tend to agree with for the most part. Any thoughts about seasons?

Originally posted by CLPrime
All of those things have occurred. Every single one of them. Again, ask me to give you the Scripture to back this up and I will.

I've only read the first 4 pages of this thread (will be reading the rest this evening) and while your findings fly in the face of my current understanding of Daniel and Revelation I must admit you've presented your evidence in a very convincing manner in what I've read so far. I'm curious if, since you apparently believe all these prophecies were already fulfilled, you also believe we're currently living in the 1000 year reign of peace with Christ as our leader? It sounds like (and please forgive me if I'm misunderstanding) you have Preterist leanings and my big issue with the Preterist view is that most Preterists believe we are already living in the 1000 year reign and all I can say is if we are then Christ is not the leader we all thought he was cracked up to be.

Originally posted by micmerci
I personally believe that scripture is the inspired word of God and thus infallible.

I'm a Christian and I don't believe that at all. If God wanted to write a book he would certainly have the power to do it himself in a clear and unambiguous manner without having to do it remotely through fallible men. This coupled with the fact that are far too many completely indefensible passages in the OT points to men having written the Bible in an effort to explain a God that they did not fully understand. Their own personal beliefs and biases crept into the telling and resulted in an overall picture of who God is and what his intent is, but with a lot of muddled info thrown in that has caused confusion and divisiveness over the centuries. There's a rather simple litmus test for the Bible being the actual word of God and it is this- does everyone read it and have the exact same interpretation of what it means? Clearly not. So is God the author of confusion? Well if he were then he wouldn't be God. There is only one conclusion- God did not author the Bible. Now please don't misunderstand, I consider the Bible extremely important and valuable. But we must use our discernment to interpret what is of God and what is not when delving into it.

reply to post by Hydroman


I say this in total respect, but I feel that we are moving off topic here. I would like to continue to discuss the original topic of this thread. Perhaps a new thread can be created for the topics you would like to discuss?

lupodigubbio,

The Palestinians in Judea that did not flee when Sharon made his "political statement" on the Temple Mount in October of 2000, were very soon walled up by Ariel Sharon, himself.

The violence that broke out in the following months was intense and uncompromising. The world quickly forgot about it but you can still find video of it on the net.

I'd say that Jesus's advice to flee to the mountains was well founded.

And clearly, the desolations and violence in Judea are not over yet.

OP, I haven't read this entire thread yet but the day is almost gone and not a mention of this anywhere. Actually in ~2 hours the day will have passed in Jerusalem.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by Alpha Arietis

 

Nope...we are reigning with Christ. All we need to know is how to live in him, and how to serve him. Why does it matter what the future holds? We know what our future holds, regardless of what comes on the Earth - if we stand firm in Christ (and if we don't twist, pervert, and distort God's Word), our future will be an eternity in heaven in the presence of our Father and of his Son.

The modern nation of Israel is false Israel. A beautiful deception, but a deception nonetheless.
All events that appear to fulfill common interpretations of prophecy are deception. They come and go, and none ever fulfill anything at all. It's all deception.
However, if prophecy has not been fulfilled within the revealed timeframe, then the Word of God, the Son of God, and the Spirit of God are all liars.

I was going to be silent here and I will return to my position of reader and observer. However. I do read philosophy and theology and have for years.

You say here that you and "we" are reigning with Christ. So apparently you believe in Christ. That's wonderful for you.

To dismiss the promises of things "to come" that he promised would come to pass is not correct.

He was asked by his followers when he would return and he told them of signs and portents.

To say prophecy is already fulfilled is folly and verging on blasphemous.

Thomas Jefferson had a Bible written where he had everything deleted in the new Testament except the literal quotes of Christ. Perhaps someone needs to revisit that thought and read it and share it.

But that's just my opinion and my $0.02

Ok...I'm back to reading now....don't mind me

Originally posted by hab22

We are on the verge of the abomination as described by Jesus in Luke 21. Armies of mobs surrounding Jersusalem leading to the city being downtrodden as also described in Daniel 8

That happened in 638 AD. That's when Jesus' prophecy in Luke 21 was fulfilled. The Islamic armies overran Jerusalem (the Desolation) and the Dome of the Rock was built, defiling the Temple Mount, which was the Abomination.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation (spoken of by Daniel the prophet,) stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

How can the abomination be in a holy place that is already torn down? It must be rebuilt first.

The Temple Mount was the Holy Place. It's perched atop Mount Zion, once known as God's Holy Mountain, the same place where Abraham was ordered to sacrifice his son. No actual Temple needs to be rebuilt. The Dome of the Rock was built by the Muslims right over the rock that Abraham was ordered to sacrifice his son on, creating the Abomination, the defiling of the Holy Mountain by consecrating it to foreign gods, in this case Allah.

Originally posted by hab22
In Matthew 24 and Luke 21, Jesus talked of earthquakes, wars and tumults and then the abomination. He didn't talk about the temple being rebuilt.

The misnomer to all this is a poor translation of Daniel 9:27 in many translations. Read the NASB verse to get a correct understanding of this important verse. The one who puts an end to "sacrifices and offerings" is not the antichrist, but rather the Messiah. He put an end to the need for daily sacrifices and offerings with his once-and-for-all sacrifice on the cross.

No need for sacrifices and offerings to be reestablished during the Great Tribulation. And no need for a new temple. The abomination will be set up on a "wing of the temple" according to Daniel 9:27 (NIV) and will be located in the court of the Gentiles according to the book of Revelations, which is where the Dome of the Rock is located. The abomination will be set up in the Dome of the Rock, as a tribute to the fact the Arabs have overtaken Jerusalem. Which is what happens at the time of the abomination. This is why Jesus tells those in Judea to escape.

Exactly. The Dome of the Rock IS the Abomination.