Why there's good reason to believe the "Abomination that Causes Desolations" will happen this spr

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by hab22

 

The fulfillment of Daniel 11-12 (the link is to my document outlining the fulfillment of this prophecy on Scribd):

Chain of Kings

CLPrime,

In your Chain of Kings for Daniel 11, you indicate that the "abomination that causes desolations" was fulfilled by Antiochus. His invasion of Jerusalem happened in 166 BC. Since Jesus spoke of the "abomination" as a future event, how can you say it was fulfilled nearly 200 years before?

Originally posted by romanmel

Originally posted by OneNationUnder
The Abomination of Desolation is set up inside of the 3rd Temple, which hasn't been built yet. The Anti-Christ declares himself God inside the 3rd Temple, and sets up the Abomination of Desolation within it.

You are exactly right.

Simply put the OP is incorrect.

No 3rd Temple = no Abomination of Desolation.

The Muslims would never allow a third temple to be built. It would lead immediately to war. This idea of the antichrist coming in as a peacemaker and giving Israel the go ahead to rebuild their temple makes no sense. Israel is currently in control of Jerusalem and the Jews know that if they do anything to disrupt the temple mount, it would enrage the Muslims.

The temple is a location at this point in time. This is why the Jews come to the Western Wall for their daily prayers. They revere the location of the temple even though the structure of the temple doesn't currently exist. The antichrist will not be a peacemaker, he will be a desolator. He will abolish "the daily", not the "daily sacrifice." You should read Daniel 8,11,12 in the NKJV. The word "sacrifice" is properly put in italics in every place that "daily sacrifice" is mentioned because the word "sacrifice" does not exist in the original text.

The assumption has always been that a 3rd temple needs to be built in order for the daily sacrifices to take place. But the Hebrew text only mentions the "daily" which could refer to the daily prayers at the Western Wall.

The "abomination" will be set up on a wing, or extremity, of the temple location. I would suggest the Dome of the Rock will be the location for the abomination. Babylon (Iraq) will "ride the beast" (of Islamic militarism) and the king of Babylon will take claim for the victory of gaining control of Jerusalem. The abomination will likely be an image of him claiming to be the Islamic messiah.

Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1

Originally posted by hab22
The precursor to this event is the March 30th "March to Jerusalem". This event occurs tomorrow and has the makings to become a terribly violent protest that will enrage the Arab world and put Israel on the defensive.

Read Luke 21, Matthew 24, Daniel 8 and Daniel 11. These verses all give details of what's about to occur.

Another aspect to look at is the Jubilee calender. There is reason to believe that September 2015 lines up with the great Jubilee that invites Christ, the Prince of Peace, to regain ownership of planet Earth from the evil warlord, Satan.

But 42 months of Great Tribulation must occur first. Scale back 42 months from September 2015 and you arrive at Passover 2012, less than two weeks away. This is one reason why I believe the March 30th March on Jerusalem will preempt a war engulfing many nations, a war that makes WWII look like a skirmish.

There is much to explain concerning this "theory". Throw out your best questions and insults. I will try to answer them all.

HAB22

So it's currently 9:19pm pacific time on March 30, 2012, what happened with "The March to Jerusalem"?

edit on 3/30/12 by ThePublicEnemyNo1 because: (no reason given)

According to the March to Jerusalem organizers, they reached their goals. 84 countries were involved with demonstrations. Obviously they haven't started marching yet. Meanwhile the Arab League leaders have been meeting in Baghdad, near the location of ancient Babylon. One of the chants of the thousands who marched in Jordan was, "Where is the Arab League?" They were calling for leadership in their march to Jerusalem. That's what was missing yesterday. The masses of Arabs are looking for a leader to galvanize their cause. This leader will come from Babylon, and he will be the final antichrist.

The Lord told Habakkuk (Hab 1:5,6) "Look at the nations and watch and be utterly amazed. For I am going to do something in your days that you would not believe even if you were told. I am raising up the Babylonians, that ruthless and impetuous people who sweep across the whole earth..."

Habakkuk tells us this "revelation" awaits an appointed time and speaks of "the end." The Apostle Paul quotes Habakkuk 1:5 (in Acts 13) and uses it in context of the Jews rejecting the message of Christ.

This may not fit into your theology, but Habakkuk tells us that God is allowing this to happen. Isaiah concurs with this. The Assyrian is the "tool of God's wrath." God is bringing judgment on both Israel and the nations. In Isaiah 1, we see that Jerusalem has become as Sodom and Gomorrah. In Revelation, it speaks of Jerusalem as becoming as Sodom and Egypt.

In Luke 21, Jesus referred to the time of the abomination. He said "This is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written."

After the 42 month time of punishment, Jerusalem will become a city of holiness that will never be defiled again. That is the hope that will galvanize God's people during the days ahead. Jerusalem right now represents greed, violence, lust and oppression, just as Isaiah 1-5 declares. But a holy remnant will come through the coming trial of fire, and Jerusalem will come out of it, embracing the Messiah and shining as a light to the nations.

Originally posted by hab22

Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1

Originally posted by hab22
The precursor to this event is the March 30th "March to Jerusalem". This event occurs tomorrow and has the makings to become a terribly violent protest that will enrage the Arab world and put Israel on the defensive.

Read Luke 21, Matthew 24, Daniel 8 and Daniel 11. These verses all give details of what's about to occur.

Another aspect to look at is the Jubilee calender. There is reason to believe that September 2015 lines up with the great Jubilee that invites Christ, the Prince of Peace, to regain ownership of planet Earth from the evil warlord, Satan.

But 42 months of Great Tribulation must occur first. Scale back 42 months from September 2015 and you arrive at Passover 2012, less than two weeks away. This is one reason why I believe the March 30th March on Jerusalem will preempt a war engulfing many nations, a war that makes WWII look like a skirmish.

There is much to explain concerning this "theory". Throw out your best questions and insults. I will try to answer them all.

HAB22

So it's currently 9:19pm pacific time on March 30, 2012, what happened with "The March to Jerusalem"?

edit on 3/30/12 by ThePublicEnemyNo1 because: (no reason given)

According to the March to Jerusalem organizers, they reached their goals. 84 countries were involved with demonstrations. Obviously they haven't started marching yet. Meanwhile the Arab League leaders have been meeting in Baghdad, near the location of ancient Babylon. One of the chants of the thousands who marched in Jordan was, "Where is the Arab League?" They were calling for leadership in their march to Jerusalem. That's what was missing yesterday. The masses of Arabs are looking for a leader to galvanize their cause. This leader will come from Babylon, and he will be the final antichrist.

The Lord told Habakkuk (Hab 1:5,6) "Look at the nations and watch and be utterly amazed. For I am going to do something in your days that you would not believe even if you were told. I am raising up the Babylonians, that ruthless and impetuous people who sweep across the whole earth..."

Habakkuk tells us this "revelation" awaits an appointed time and speaks of "the end." The Apostle Paul quotes Habakkuk 1:5 (in Acts 13) and uses it in context of the Jews rejecting the message of Christ.

This may not fit into your theology, but Habakkuk tells us that God is allowing this to happen. Isaiah concurs with this. The Assyrian is the "tool of God's wrath." God is bringing judgment on both Israel and the nations. In Isaiah 1, we see that Jerusalem has become as Sodom and Gomorrah. In Revelation, it speaks of Jerusalem as becoming as Sodom and Egypt.

In Luke 21, Jesus referred to the time of the abomination. He said "This is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written."

After the 42 month time of punishment, Jerusalem will become a city of holiness that will never be defiled again. That is the hope that will galvanize God's people during the days ahead. Jerusalem right now represents greed, violence, lust and oppression, just as Isaiah 1-5 declares. But a holy remnant will come through the coming trial of fire, and Jerusalem will come out of it, embracing the Messiah and shining as a light to the nations.

in other words, your prophecy has been rendered moot.

Originally posted by DeadSeraph

Originally posted by hab22

Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1

Originally posted by hab22
The precursor to this event is the March 30th "March to Jerusalem". This event occurs tomorrow and has the makings to become a terribly violent protest that will enrage the Arab world and put Israel on the defensive.

Read Luke 21, Matthew 24, Daniel 8 and Daniel 11. These verses all give details of what's about to occur.

Another aspect to look at is the Jubilee calender. There is reason to believe that September 2015 lines up with the great Jubilee that invites Christ, the Prince of Peace, to regain ownership of planet Earth from the evil warlord, Satan.

But 42 months of Great Tribulation must occur first. Scale back 42 months from September 2015 and you arrive at Passover 2012, less than two weeks away. This is one reason why I believe the March 30th March on Jerusalem will preempt a war engulfing many nations, a war that makes WWII look like a skirmish.

There is much to explain concerning this "theory". Throw out your best questions and insults. I will try to answer them all.

HAB22

So it's currently 9:19pm pacific time on March 30, 2012, what happened with "The March to Jerusalem"?

edit on 3/30/12 by ThePublicEnemyNo1 because: (no reason given)

According to the March to Jerusalem organizers, they reached their goals. 84 countries were involved with demonstrations. Obviously they haven't started marching yet. Meanwhile the Arab League leaders have been meeting in Baghdad, near the location of ancient Babylon. One of the chants of the thousands who marched in Jordan was, "Where is the Arab League?" They were calling for leadership in their march to Jerusalem. That's what was missing yesterday. The masses of Arabs are looking for a leader to galvanize their cause. This leader will come from Babylon, and he will be the final antichrist.

The Lord told Habakkuk (Hab 1:5,6) "Look at the nations and watch and be utterly amazed. For I am going to do something in your days that you would not believe even if you were told. I am raising up the Babylonians, that ruthless and impetuous people who sweep across the whole earth..."

Habakkuk tells us this "revelation" awaits an appointed time and speaks of "the end." The Apostle Paul quotes Habakkuk 1:5 (in Acts 13) and uses it in context of the Jews rejecting the message of Christ.

This may not fit into your theology, but Habakkuk tells us that God is allowing this to happen. Isaiah concurs with this. The Assyrian is the "tool of God's wrath." God is bringing judgment on both Israel and the nations. In Isaiah 1, we see that Jerusalem has become as Sodom and Gomorrah. In Revelation, it speaks of Jerusalem as becoming as Sodom and Egypt.

In Luke 21, Jesus referred to the time of the abomination. He said "This is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written."

After the 42 month time of punishment, Jerusalem will become a city of holiness that will never be defiled again. That is the hope that will galvanize God's people during the days ahead. Jerusalem right now represents greed, violence, lust and oppression, just as Isaiah 1-5 declares. But a holy remnant will come through the coming trial of fire, and Jerusalem will come out of it, embracing the Messiah and shining as a light to the nations.

in other words, your prophecy has been rendered moot.

First of all, I am not giving a prophecy. I'm stating a theory of how the ancient prophecies will be fulfilled. I admit, a lot of things have to fall into place in order for the abomination to happen this spring. But no, the ancient prophecies will never be rendered moot. They will be fulfilled. Habakkuk said, "Watch the nations and be utterly amazed." He also said, "you will not believe even if you were told."

I don't expect you or anyone else to believe it. I admit I have a hard time believing it myself.

American and British forces have just recently been pulled out of Iraq. That, to me, is as big a sign as any that the time is near. If you read Daniel 11:30, you will see that in the verse just before the abomination, "ships of the western coastlands" will oppose the king of the North (Babylon) and cause him to be grieved. I believe this was fulfilled in the 2003 American and British invasion of Iraq. Then it says "he will return and vent his fury against the holy covenant." In Thessalonians, the "man of lawlessness" who will speak blasphemies in the holy place (thus committing an abomination) is revealed when the "withholding force" is removed. Compare with Daniel 11, and you will see that the withholding force to the king of Babylon are the ships of the western coastlands.

There is one other prophecy about the ships of the western coastlands (Kittim) and that appears in Numbers 24. You should try reading it. It fits in very well with Daniel 11

reply to post by hab22


We obviously have two distinct abominations causing desolation.
Daniel 8 confirms that Antiochus Epiphanes would set one up. How anyone can shift Daniel 8 into our future, I have no idea - the ram is Medo-Persia per verse 20, the goat is Greece per verse 21, the goat's 4 horns are it being divided into 4 kingdoms (historically: the Macedonian, Egyptian, Syrian, and Asian kingdoms) per verse 22, and the other horn comes from one of these kingdoms per verses 23-25 (historically: Antiochus came from the Seleucid/Syrian Empire).
Daniel 9, however, is contextually speaking of a different timeframe, different events, and, then, a different abomination. Both Daniel and Jesus connect this desolation-causing abomination to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Originally posted by DeadSeraph

I can only draw attention to the thief on the cross. Seems to me he was saved by faith alone (according to Christ's own words).

If you want to discuss this, you can U2U me. I already side-tracked another "end times" thread in the past month by getting into a debate on the nature of salvation...I don't want to do it again.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by hab22

 

We obviously have two distinct abominations causing desolation.
Daniel 8 confirms that Antiochus Epiphanes would set one up. How anyone can shift Daniel 8 into our future, I have no idea - the ram is Medo-Persia per verse 20, the goat is Greece per verse 21, the goat's 4 horns are it being divided into 4 kingdoms (historically: the Macedonian, Egyptian, Syrian, and Asian kingdoms) per verse 22, and the other horn comes from one of these kingdoms per verses 23-25 (historically: Antiochus came from the Seleucid/Syrian Empire).
Daniel 9, however, is contextually speaking of a different timeframe, different events, and, then, a different abomination. Both Daniel and Jesus connect this desolation-causing abomination to the destruction of Jerusalem.

So you're saying there are two fulfillments of the abomination. One in 166 BC and one in 70 AD. Sorry, but I find that very convoluted. Neither tie in with Daniel's 70th week, without some "creative" interpretation.

Since you are a preterist, do you believe that Satan is currently bound, and that Christ's kingdom has come? Is the lion laying down with the lamb somewhere? Is the child playing with the adder? Where's all the peace that was promised?

My understanding is: we are heading full scale into the darkest, most violent time in the history of the world. It will be so horrible a time to live, that some men's hearts will fail for fear of what's coming down. No time in history will be like it. Now you say, this is what happened when Rome invaded Jerusalem in 70 AD. But there are so many aspects to the end times that never happened then. Such as a fiery mountain crashing into the earth causing a third of mankind to perish. Where was that in 70 AD?

Originally posted by hab22

So you're saying there are two fulfillments of the abomination. One in 166 BC and one in 70 AD. Sorry, but I find that very convoluted. Neither tie in with Daniel's 70th week, without some "creative" interpretation.

We're actually told flat out when each was fulfilled.
We know the context of the desolation in chapter 8 (the divided Greek Empire, out of which came Antiochus Epiphanes who did everything the horn is said to do - Daniel 8:9-14,23-25). We know the context of the abomination in chapter 11 (the chain of kings leads right up to Antiochus and his desecration of the Temple).
We also the the context of the 70th week in chapter 9 - the time of the Messiah being cut off and the destruction of the city and the sanctuary (Daniel 9:26). This is the exact same context as Jesus' Olivet Discourse (the destruction of the buildings of the city - Matthew 24:2). And Luke gives us even more context - when the city is surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20).
How can anyone possibly confuse these two, let alone apply them to our future?

Since you are a preterist, do you believe that Satan is currently bound, and that Christ's kingdom has come? Is the lion laying down with the lamb somewhere? Is the child playing with the adder? Where's all the peace that was promised?

I would never accept being called a Preterist. I refuse to conform to any label. I go where Scripture leads...that's it. I haven't even conformed to the views of my mentor (a Church of Christ preacher, as I have become). He would never, ever claim that the return of Christ has already occurred.

I don't believe that Satan is currently bound, but I do believe that Satan was bound for a long period of time (symbolically called 1000 years). Looking around at the world, and at all the deception in it, I think it's obvious that the deceiver is once again at work.
The problem that people usually have with this is that, with Satan bound, they expect for the world to go back to a deception-free paradise. That's not the way it works. What we find throughout the New Testament is that, in fact, man's sinful nature exists without Satan's active deception. He deceived us once, and that was enough to send all of mankind into a state of sin. Binding the deceiver does nothing to remove the deception.
But, now, we see all new kinds of deception, and the world is once again rising up against the followers of Christ. That, I believe, is a clear indication that Satan has been loosed for some time now, and that he is actively deceiving the world again.

As for Christ's Kingdom having come - I gave you 4 passages yesterday that clearly state that his Kingdom is here and we are in it. I can do no more than that.

I see that, like all other Futurists, you're looking forward to the physical manifestation of lions with lambs and babies with adders. You're looking for global peace, and you want Christ to bring it to this physical planet. But, that's exactly the reason why the Kingdom is in the mess it's in today - because people are waiting for Christ to establish a physical kingdom of global peace, when, in reality, he has already established his spiritual Kingdom of peace. And it most certainly is global. Just because not everyone is a part of it, that doesn't make it any less global. And just because many people commit acts of violence, even in the name of God, that doesn't mean that Christ's Kingdom is not now a Kingdom of peace. Those who are truly in the Kingdom of Christ live in peace. People who, naturally, are enemies, are living together in Christ's Church. That, I must say, is much better than a lion and lamb making peace.

My understanding is: we are heading full scale into the darkest, most violent time in the history of the world. It will be so horrible a time to live, that some men's hearts will fail for fear of what's coming down. No time in history will be like it. Now you say, this is what happened when Rome invaded Jerusalem in 70 AD. But there are so many aspects to the end times that never happened then. Such as a fiery mountain crashing into the earth causing a third of mankind to perish. Where was that in 70 AD?

You should go back a page or 2 (I think it's 2 - ETA: yep, here it is) and find my handy chart outlining the historical fulfillment of Revelation. Only the seals, which parallel the Olivet Discourse, describe the destruction of Jerusalem. The rest of the book of Revelation deals with the end of Roman authority. The trumpets describe what we call the Crisis of the 3rd Century, heralding the impending collapse of the Empire. The vials bring about the end of the Empire. In AD 313, Christianity was officially tolerated, and the Kingdom of God succeeded in overthrowing the Roman Empire. This was the return of Christ - the 7th trumpet, the binding of Satan, the first resurrection, the glorious hope. This was what the 1st century Church had been waiting for.

All of this sounds like people trying to force puzzle pieces into the wrong puzzle altogether.

every time a read a page of replies... there are 1 1/2 new pages of new posts... so i interrupt my reading the thread at page 6 1/2 to make my interjection...


To begin with....i found that there are 2 separate meanings of the written word 'Abomination'

this is a list of what are 'abominations'(*8441) to the Lord:
meaning:
1) a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable
a) in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages)
b) in ethical sense (of wickedness etc


Deu 7:25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold [that is] on them, nor take [it] unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it [is] an abomination to the LORD thy God
Deu 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. For the froward [is] abomination (8441) to the LORD: but his secret [is] with the righteous.
Pro 11:1 A false balance [is] abomination to the LORD: but a just weight [is] his delight.
Pro 11:20 They that are of a froward heart [are] abomination to the LORD: but [such as are] upright in [their] way [are] his delight.
Pro 12:22 Lying lips [are] abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly [are] his delight.
Pro 15:26 The thoughts 4284 of the wicked 7451 [are] an abomination 8441 to the LORD 3068: but [the words] of the pure 2889 [are] pleasant 5278 words 561.
Pro 17:15 He that justifieth 6663 the wicked 7563, and he that condemneth 7561 the just 6662, even they both 8147 [are] abomination 8441 to the LORD 3068.
Pro 20:10 Divers weights 68 68, [and] divers measures 374 374, both 8147 of them [are] alike 1571 abomination 8441 to the LORD 3068.


Abomination (*946) of Desolation; as used only at in Mat 24 & Mar 13
meaning:
1) a foul thing, a detestable thing
a) of idols and things pertaining to idolatry


My best guess... the "Abomination of Desolation" may be a genetically engineered/cloned copy of the (likeness) Image of the antichrist AKA: Beast...
possibly a cyborg creature with only the head/arms/torso of biological tissue which would allow the 'image' to be proclaimed as 'alive' & able to 'speak'
but would not be a cloned and independent 'double' of the First Beast


the 2nd beast person will create the Image-of-the-Beast during a 75 day period revealed in the final book of Revelation (which explains the 1,260 day period within a 1335 day period...


Now, i will depart from the scriptures and relate how occult forces are preparing the way for the Anti-christ and the 'image' or 'Abomination of Desolation' created by the false prophet at the onset of the Revealing of the AC and the era of the Mark-of-the-beast... these are all interlaced...


We have already been prepared to not be shocked by such a creation and to accept the advanced technology...to wit. a Star Trek episode : of a man united with a machine which provides the human a mobility of sorts

...He (Captain Pike, early Enterprise) appears, in the final scene of the film, in a wheelchair. In this production he is able to speak and to use his upper body,...

en.wikipedia.org...


the wheelchair emphasis was mine, because the device was not a wheelchair in which a person sits
rather it is a cybronic machine with artificial nerves tied to the humans nervous system

this type of device with a cloned copy of the upper portion of the AC would literally fulfill the scriptures account
that the Image-of-the-beast would 'be alive' (movement and breath/voice) yet only be a incomplete duplicate of the real AC... and this unholy copy of created life becomes the 'Abomination' found only in Mark & Matthew..
the Desolation referrs to the death penalty and prosecutions ordered by this artificial monstrosity that sits at a seat of Holy Authority, the desolation also refers to the fact that the Image is a singular thing that cannot reproduce...the Image/Abomination is desolate on many different levels



Now, i will pick back up reading the replies on page 7... thanks

Originally posted by hab22


... The abomination will likely be an image of him claiming to be the Islamic messiah.

OK... we are on the same track
(i found this after my post)

reply to post by CLPrime


Here's how I know for certain you are wrong- or, we might call it half right:

At Lev 23 there are times appointed which Christ is clearly fulfilling. This is an agricultural analogue of two harvests.

The spring harvest runs from Passover, Firstfruits through Pentecost. Jesus was crucified on Passover, resurrected on Firstfruits and baptized with the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. You seem to have a pretty good knowledge of scripture so I trust you know for certain that the very New Testament is a witness to the earth that these appointed times have been fulfilled in Christ. I trust you understand that the first coming culminated in the work of the cross; and that there is a reason Jesus was not crucified on some random day of the year, or that he rose from the dead on any random day of the year. The work of the first coming was specifically accomplished on the days appointed at Lev 23. I trust this is simple to understand.

The fall harvest runs from Trumpets through the Last Great Day (the total course of days are called Trumpets, Judgment, Ingathering, the Last Great Day- sounds like a tagline for a movie about the Revelation doesn't it? Because it is) and the analogue is clear: the second coming will see Christ fulfil the fall harvest cycle. Indeed, all of the temple imagery in the Revelation is fall festival imagery- this is why you see the blowing of trumpets, the use of much incense at the alter, the treading of the winepress, etc.

The point being this: we both know for a fact that Christ has fulfilled the spring harvest appointments through the work of the first advent. So I ask you, where in the past are the fall harvest appointments fulfilled? I will tell you right up that no one's ability to produce charts showing this that and the other thing matters to me- anyone can create a pattern which appears to follow another foundational pattern. What I want to see the same clear testimony to the world with which the New Testament shows that the spring appointments were fulfilled.

But you won't be able to do this because it hasn't happened yet and this is how I know for certain that you're in error here. The first coming culminated in the fulfilment of the spring harvest appointments and the second coming will culminate in the fulfillment of the fall harvest appointments. That also means you can expect the second coming to begin on Rosh Hashanah and Christ to return on Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur is in fact called "The Day of Judgment" and this was appointed so all the way back at Lev 23- so when is Judgment Day? Well, what has been hidden in plain sight at Lev 23 for two-thousand years is now being plainly revealed and declared to you. Why is this information now being revealed to those with ears to hear? I think that should be as obviously clear as the fulfilment of the appointed times.

You're right that the kingdom is already spiritually here; this was done through the work of the first coming- as Christ our High Priest; you're wrong in thinking that is the end of its manifestation. Luke 22:29 appoints a kingdom to come as well.

Also, since I know that Christ must return on Yom Kippur just as surely as He had to be crucified on Passover; then if I see any kind of "second coming" occurring on some other date (say, for instance, the 10th of Tevet) then I'll know it's nothing but a huge deception.

Originally posted by MrCobb

The spring harvest runs from Passover, Firstfruits through Pentecost. Jesus was crucified on Passover, resurrected on Firstfruits and baptized with the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. You seem to have a pretty good knowledge of scripture so I trust you know for certain that the very New Testament is a witness to the earth that these appointed times have been fulfilled in Christ. I trust you understand that the first coming culminated in the work of the cross; and that there is a reason Jesus was not crucified on some random day of the year, or that he rose from the dead on any random day of the year. The work of the first coming was specifically accomplished on the days appointed at Lev 23. I trust this is simple to understand.

I understand the symbolism of each holy day (as well as everything else under the Old Covenant) with respect to Christ's sacrifice. Though, there is one issue with this. Jesus wasn't crucified on Passover. Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation - the day before Passover. According to your strict following of these days, which you make good use of below by saying you won't accept on any day other than Yom Kippur for Christ's return, I guess you'll also have to reject his first coming. The Day of Preparation certainly isn't Passover.

The symbolism here isn't in what day Christ was crucified, what day he was resurrected, or what day he returns. It was in the events, themselves. Though, you are generally right. The spring harvest was symbolic of Christ's first coming, and the fall harvest was symbolic of his second coming. You're just getting too caught up on obsolete calendar days.

The fall harvest runs from Trumpets through the Last Great Day (the total course of days are called Trumpets, Judgment, Ingathering, the Last Great Day- sounds like a tagline for a movie about the Revelation doesn't it? Because it is) and the analogue is clear: the second coming will see Christ fulfil the fall harvest cycle. Indeed, all of the temple imagery in the Revelation is fall festival imagery- this is why you see the blowing of trumpets, the use of much incense at the alter, the treading of the winepress, etc.

The point being this: we both know for a fact that Christ has fulfilled the spring harvest appointments through the work of the first advent. So I ask you, where in the past are the fall harvest appointments fulfilled?

Just as Christ said would happen, the fall harvest was fulfilled in the division of the world - goats vs sheep - between AD 70 and 313. A fine line was drawn between the follows of Christ and the followers of the Roman authority, and, in AD 313, the followers of Christ were victorious. Moreover, as Christ had predicted, the Roman authority was cast out, along with its followers, and the judgment against them was complete. Rome was overtaken by the Kingdom of Heaven.

I will tell you right up that no one's ability to produce charts showing this that and the other thing matters to me- anyone can create a pattern which appears to follow another foundational pattern.

I don't find patters. In fact, you're the one finding patterns on the Hebrew calendar. All my chart provided was a summary of how the symbolic events of Revelation became historical reality within the Roman Empire.

You're right that the kingdom is already spiritually here; this was done through the work of the first coming- as Christ our High Priest; you're wrong in thinking that is the end of its manifestation. Luke 22:29 appoints a kingdom to come as well.

In Luke 22:29, the context is their Passover supper (though, it wasn't Passover yet), and Jesus says, "And I confer on you a Kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me."
How many Kingdoms are there?
There is only one - the Kingdom of Heaven, which we have already inherited - "For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves" (Colossians 1:13).

I must say that I am really enjoying this thread and the debate! Let's just keep it civil and I shall keep following it!

Cheers,

Every time you watch television, you are watching an image of someone speak. I believe that should tip us off to the meaning of the "image of the beast" that speaks to the world in the last days. (They didn't have television back in 70 AD by the way.)

The prelude to the image of the beast may have already occurred. It's called the Saddam Channel. In November 2009, out of nowhere, a satellite feed called the Saddam Channel started beaming on television screens all over the Middle East. Images of Saddam giving speeches calling for Jihad, images of Saddam riding on a white horse. It lasted a week and then strangely disappeared, just as strangely as it started. It was a precursor to things to come, in my opinion.

Check out these links on the mysterious Saddam Channel:

www.telegraph.co.uk...

www.newser.com...


No one fits all the names of the antichrist better than Saddam. 1) king of Babylon (Saddam rededicated the city of Babylon) 2) the Assyrian (Saddam was born near the ancient capital of Assyria) 3) man of lawlessness (Saddam was dubbed the "outlaw" after pillaging Kuwait) 4) the destroyer (Saddam's name means destroyer in the Farsic dialect) 5) the little horn (Saddam came from peasant beginnings to become one of the wealthiest people in the world) 6) the one who seemingly comes back from a fatal wound (there's plenty of evidence that the real Saddam wasn't the same Saddam captured, tried and executed.)

Originally posted by CLPrime

I understand the symbolism of each holy day (as well as everything else under the Old Covenant) with respect to Christ's sacrifice. Though, there is one issue with this. Jesus wasn't crucified on Passover. Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation - the day before Passover.

If you reject the Lev 23 appointments, then there is no possible way you can say what you're saying with any level of sufficiency. For instance, here is a different argument stating the opposite:

www.friktech.com...

These arguments prove nothing and are as old as the hills. I can, however, throw all of these in the trash and say, I know exactly what day He was crucified on, and it was Nisan 14- Passover; and if it wasn't Nisan 14 then Jesus is not the Messiah since He didn't fulfil the Passover at His appointed time. But He did, and you're factually wrong. I know this for certain (if we accept the bible as providing consistently true information- which I do) because the crucifixion, resurrection, baptism of the Holy Spirit events are clearly occurring at specific times, on specific days already appointed long ago at Sinai.

Even if somehow you are still possibly thinking Jesus wasn't crucified on Passover, then how coincidental is it that He became the Passover "just right before Passover", then became the Firstfruits (from the dead, as written) "just right at the appointed Day of Firstfruits" then just happened to coincidentally hang around on earth during the course of the 49 days of the spring harvest festival to finally baptize with the Holy Spirit on the very day of Pentecost?

The symbolism here isn't in what day Christ was crucified, what day he was resurrected, or what day he returns. It was in the events, themselves. Though, you are generally right. The spring harvest was symbolic of Christ's first coming, and the fall harvest was symbolic of his second coming. You're just getting too caught up on obsolete calendar days.

Well since the God of creation appointed the obsolete calendar days, and since the culmination of the first coming occured exactly on the appointed obsolete calender days of the spring harvest, and since there is no record anywhere at all of Christ yet fulfilling the appointed obsolete calendar days of the fall harvest; then, yes, I freely admit to being caught up on obsolete calendar days.

Just as Christ said would happen, the fall harvest was fulfilled in the division of the world - goats vs sheep - between AD 70 and 313. A fine line was drawn between the follows of Christ and the followers of the Roman authority, and, in AD 313, the followers of Christ were victorious. Moreover, as Christ had predicted, the Roman authority was cast out, along with its followers, and the judgment against them was complete. Rome was overtaken by the Kingdom of Heaven.

I hope you realize I'm been privy to being given a good many "charts" that show how the Revelation was fulfilled. All of them with completely different interpretations of the revelation, and all dealing with different tracks of history; yet somehow all of them perfectly true.

None of them able to demonstrate in any way, shape or form the events of the fall festivals coming to pass. So if you can pinpoint to me the exact day that the Day of Trumpets was fulfilled on the 1st day of the 7th month, followed 9 days later by the Day of Judgement being fulfilled on the 10th day, followed by the fulfillment of a 7-day Fruit Harvest culminating on the Last Great day- then by all means let's see it. But you can't because it hasn't occurred yet. For you, I'll even take "the day before the 1st of the 7th, then 9 days later the day before the 10th of the 7th, etc."

I will tell you right up that no one's ability to produce charts showing this that and the other thing matters to me- anyone can create a pattern which appears to follow another foundational pattern.

I don't find patters. In fact, you're the one finding patterns on the Hebrew calendar.

The difference is the harvest calendar analogue information is coming straight and clear out of the bible, the "the Revelation already happened let me show you my chart of Roman history" isn't.

What I'm telling you is true; it is biblical fact and it is reality. I know it is. Many already know it is. It's only a matter of time until you also know it. It's only a matter of time until everyone on the planet knows it. But here, even if you don't yet fully realize it- just remember the information. Consider it an "important possibility" at the least. That way, if you see some kind of "second coming" happening in, say, winter or, say, Easter or some random day of the year; you can think, "I'm not so sure this is the real thing going on here"

Originally posted by MrCobb

Originally posted by CLPrime

I understand the symbolism of each holy day (as well as everything else under the Old Covenant) with respect to Christ's sacrifice. Though, there is one issue with this. Jesus wasn't crucified on Passover. Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation - the day before Passover.

If you reject the Lev 23 appointments, then there is no possible way you can say what you're saying with any level of sufficiency. For instance, here is a different argument stating the opposite:

www.friktech.com...

These arguments prove nothing and are as old as the hills. I can, however, throw all of these in the trash and say, I know exactly what day He was crucified on, and it was Nisan 14- Passover; and if it wasn't Nisan 14 then Jesus is not the Messiah since He didn't fulfil the Passover at His appointed time. But He did, and you're factually wrong. I know this for certain (if we accept the bible as providing consistently true information- which I do) because the crucifixion, resurrection, baptism of the Holy Spirit events are clearly occurring at specific times, on specific days already appointed long ago at Sinai.

Even if somehow you are still possibly thinking Jesus wasn't crucified on Passover, then how coincidental is it that He became the Passover "just right before Passover", then became the Firstfruits (from the dead, as written) "just right at the appointed Day of Firstfruits" then just happened to coincidentally hang around on earth during the course of the 49 days of the spring harvest festival to finally baptize with the Holy Spirit on the very day of Pentecost?

The symbolism here isn't in what day Christ was crucified, what day he was resurrected, or what day he returns. It was in the events, themselves. Though, you are generally right. The spring harvest was symbolic of Christ's first coming, and the fall harvest was symbolic of his second coming. You're just getting too caught up on obsolete calendar days.

Well since the God of creation appointed the obsolete calendar days, and since the culmination of the first coming occured exactly on the appointed obsolete calender days of the spring harvest, and since there is no record anywhere at all of Christ yet fulfilling the appointed obsolete calendar days of the fall harvest; then, yes, I freely admit to being caught up on obsolete calendar days.

Just as Christ said would happen, the fall harvest was fulfilled in the division of the world - goats vs sheep - between AD 70 and 313. A fine line was drawn between the follows of Christ and the followers of the Roman authority, and, in AD 313, the followers of Christ were victorious. Moreover, as Christ had predicted, the Roman authority was cast out, along with its followers, and the judgment against them was complete. Rome was overtaken by the Kingdom of Heaven.

I hope you realize I'm been privy to being given a good many "charts" that show how the Revelation was fulfilled. All of them with completely different interpretations of the revelation, and all dealing with different tracks of history; yet somehow all of them perfectly true.

None of them able to demonstrate in any way, shape or form the events of the fall festivals coming to pass. So if you can pinpoint to me the exact day that the Day of Trumpets was fulfilled on the 1st day of the 7th month, followed 9 days later by the Day of Judgement being fulfilled on the 10th day, followed by the fulfillment of a 7-day Fruit Harvest culminating on the Last Great day- then by all means let's see it. But you can't because it hasn't occurred yet. For you, I'll even take "the day before the 1st of the 7th, then 9 days later the day before the 10th of the 7th, etc."

I will tell you right up that no one's ability to produce charts showing this that and the other thing matters to me- anyone can create a pattern which appears to follow another foundational pattern.

I don't find patters. In fact, you're the one finding patterns on the Hebrew calendar.

The difference is the harvest calendar analogue information is coming straight and clear out of the bible, the "the Revelation already happened let me show you my chart of Roman history" isn't.

What I'm telling you is true; it is biblical fact and it is reality. I know it is. Many already know it is. It's only a matter of time until you also know it. It's only a matter of time until everyone on the planet knows it. But here, even if you don't yet fully realize it- just remember the information. Consider it an "important possibility" at the least. That way, if you see some kind of "second coming" happening in, say, winter or, say, Easter or some random day of the year; you can think, "I'm not so sure this is the real thing going on here"

Mr. Cobb

I agree, Christ was the Passover Lamb. Also that His second coming will occur during the Fall Feasts. Would you agree that the "abomination that causes desolation" will occur in the spring, during the time of Passover, since it occurs 42 months prior to the second coming?

We are just a week away from Passover. This year has a heightened sense of urgency about it.

Originally posted by MrCobb

... I know exactly what day He was crucified on, and it was Nisan 14- Passover; and if it wasn't Nisan 14 then Jesus is not the Messiah since He didn't fulfil the Passover at His appointed time. But He did, and you're factually wrong. I know this for certain (if we accept the bible as providing consistently true information- which I do) because the crucifixion, resurrection, baptism of the Holy Spirit events are clearly occurring at specific times, on specific days already appointed long ago at Sinai.

Edit: see my additional post below this one.

Well since the God of creation appointed the obsolete calendar days, and since the culmination of the first coming occured exactly on the appointed obsolete calender days of the spring harvest, and since there is no record anywhere at all of Christ yet fulfilling the appointed obsolete calendar days of the fall harvest; then, yes, I freely admit to being caught up on obsolete calendar days.

And, with that, you're predicting a Satanic false advent on December 23 of this year.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt - enough to wait until December 23 comes and goes. I'll mark it on iCal....

So if you can pinpoint to me the exact day that the Day of Trumpets was fulfilled on the 1st day of the 7th month, followed 9 days later by the Day of Judgement being fulfilled on the 10th day, followed by the fulfillment of a 7-day Fruit Harvest culminating on the Last Great day- then by all means let's see it. But you can't because it hasn't occurred yet. For you, I'll even take "the day before the 1st of the 7th, then 9 days later the day before the 10th of the 7th, etc."

I will freely admit that I can't (or, rather, I won't even try) because I won't get caught up in dates anymore. I used to, but I've since focused more on the context of prophecy rather than calendar significances. When there are calendar significances, they seem to follow naturally from context without me having to look for them.

reply to post by MrCobb


If you don't mind, I'd like to concede that Jesus was, as you say, crucified on the Passover. It took some scribbles on my handy notepad, but I've never been one to deny the truth once I see it - so, I'll give you this (because you had it right in the first place, not because it's actually in my authority to give that you have it right).

That doesn't change my opinion of your holy days thing, but at least you're right about the first coming.

reply to post by CLPrime


Hi CL,
Correct, God doesn't give exact dates to prophets. People would wait to the last minute to convert.

Remember, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Anti-Christ will abolish
the Eucharist.